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I suspect reality is as follows, and I want liberation from it

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posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 05:34 PM
After reading countless books and listening to hundreds of people over the last forty years, From Suzy Smith’s “You Cannot Die” through the Seth Books and Ian Stevenson’s work on reincarnation. I’ve read countless accounts of NDEs, from accounts in books like Moody’s “Life after Life” to individual accounts as posts on forums. And, of course, we have the stories from religions both huge and small, from all over the world. The accounts are both anecdotal and dogma, but they all point to a few basic postulates. I won’t call them “facts” because there is doubt about the exact specifics.

1. You survive “death” in some way. Your ego remains intact, at least at first and in part. Your physical appearance is pretty much like it is now, though of a finer material and vibration.

2. There is an afterlife with several levels. Your first level allows you to still see this plane, such as in NDEs. Eventually you “see the light” and go to the next level where you meet people who have passed on prior. This realm is described as very beautiful.

3. Much of what you experience after death depends on what you believe. If you believe in Jesus, you’ll see him. If you believe in 72 virgins, you’ll see them. You will tend to believe your views are vindicated. Rationalists will have a bit of a problem, but they’ll get over it.

4. Reincarnation is a basic truth. Your ego is part of a greater soul that experiences life through many different lives. At some level you forget your ‘previous’ lives so they do not interfere with your current ones.

5. It appears that “time” is an intellectual concept that is a convenience, but doesn’t really exist. In other words, your next life could be in 900 BC; time is not lineal.

I know there are people here and elsewhere who believe they’ve got the specifics of these general statements down way closer than this. I appreciate your certainty, but I don’t buy it because you contradict each other. For every person who claims Jesus meets them on the other side there is someone who claims she is a reincarnated alien. I have seen posts where it is claimed we must live 144 separate lives to qualify for ‘advancement’ and threads claiming we have to live ALL lives on earth before we collectively move on. I don’t see any good way to verify any of these specific claims and don’t want to waste time examining them, therefore I’ll stick to the more general issues above.

One of my reluctant conclusions is that it appears we may not have much individual control over what happens. What we have come to know as our own selves, our egos, may have a somewhat small part in this game, a temporary convenience of the oversoul so that he can experience whatever it is he is attempting to learn. We may be semi-sentient avatars for a Second Life game we don’t know we are playing.

Although the lives of most people typing at keyboards these days must be somewhat okay, for most of our existence and for the vast majority of people today life is as Hobbes described it: “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.” It always has been. Nature doesn’t exhibit much “love,” that thing we’re all told we must spire to. Nature is “red in tooth and claw” and basically lives off death. The number of people killed by other humans, the number of people living in abject poverty, the number of people who starve to death, the number of people who live without hope is appalling.

I’m left wondering, what is the point here? Surely you are not telling me that these kinds of lives are secretly teaching their oversouls some esoteric, but very important message about the meaning of life. It’s pretty apparent that majority opinion is that we, Homo sapiens, are “bad.” Whether this is objectified in thoughts that “we are destroying the planet” or “We all live in sin,” the message is pretty much the same. This seems to be coming from ourselves rather than from somewhere on high. We are not a race that loved ourselves. We prefer to blame ourselves, or at least everyone else but ourselves.

So what I think we have is a life-reincarnation cycle that involved this veil of forgetfulness that leaves us in a state of ignorance when we are here and perhaps we are not. I don’t know who or what set up this system. If you say it’s “God,” OK. Call it what you want. If this is sentient, I’m calling It (or Them) out.

Why are you doing this to us? This whole thing is painful. It hurts. It’s not all that fun. I’m happy to be able to smell the roses and the oranges, taste good food, feel the wind on my face, get laid, and all the physical pleasures. But it’s not enough for what You inflict upon us. Don’t you dare tell me this is all self-inflicted. It’s not. You did this to us and I don’t want to do it any more. You’re locking a paper bag on our heads, making us forget everything we’ve ever endured, then sending us down here to “do good.” Nonsense. How can You justify this torture?

Whoever started this, You no longer have my support. We’re not the problem; You are. I want out of this pattern. I want You to let my people go. I want You to free us from the shackles of this cycle. If there is not already a movement with similar ideals and goals, it starts here. If there is, point me where to sign up. I am going to devote every ounce of strength I have, at whatever level, to break out of this hell You have created for us.

posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 05:57 PM
reply to post by schuyler
A rebel eh? What an excellent thread, best ive seen in ages, and i think youve stated a lot of truths in there, if im absolutly honest. And your absolutely right, this existance is pretty crappy, and i wish we didnt have to have it this way.

posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 06:08 PM
reply to post by thedoctorswife
Just watching a uk drama series called silent witness, set in south africa and showing two young girls having tyres put on their heads and set alight, i mean WTF is going on with this world, there is so much evil its unbelievable, ive SO had enough i wish things could change, because i believe deep down that the human spirit is far better than this.

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posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 06:12 PM
I sometimes catch myself wondering if I am already dead, and this is the hell that I was sent to. Sure does seem like it a lot of the time.

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posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 06:23 PM
In spite of all its raw spiritual negativity (okay fine, largely because of it), I find this to be one of the most refreshing threads I've seen.

Even in my days as a hardcore atheist, I could see the game that Nature was playing. From an evolutionary standpoint, pleasure is supposed to be fleeting. There's no survival advantage to feeling good for long periods at a time, just long enough to make you want to seek out that pleasure again (whether it's because the pleasure was high-calorie (and thus very beneficial in a state of nature), or contributed to reproduction, or whatever).

But no matter what we accomplish, we are never satisfied with what we have. Whether you live in abject poverty or in opulent luxury, you always see those who have it a bit better than you and assume you'd be happy if you could just reach that same threshold, not realizing how unhappy those you envy are, how unhappy everybody is in fact, from the bottom all the way to the top. Nature designed it this way. We're not supposed to be happy. We're here to suffer. And from a standpoint of species survival, that's exactly what we're supposed to do. A contented person is a non-acting person. A discontented person acts.

Quite coincidentally, earlier today I was surfing the web and read the following essay: THIS I BELIEVE: THIS WORLD WAS CREATED BY AN EVIL GOD. It's somewhat lengthy but worth a read if you are willing to spare the time.

Perhaps that's why this thread resonated with me so much; I was already in a "metaphysically pessimistic" mindset. In any case, I am happy to contribute a star and a flag; hopefully they will help your career or love life.

ETA: The link isn't going to work. The part before "villagesquare" in the link should be that country that's spelled like the N word but with only one G and ends in "ia". Ridiculous that ATS would censor the actual URLs of hyperlinks, IMO, especially since it's not even the way the bad word is spelled and is in fact the name of a legitimate country.

edit on 20-10-2010 by NewlyAwakened because: (no reason given)

posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 06:26 PM
I have come to the same sort of conclusions and my belief system has settled down. I remember when I was a teenager having a very basic ubderstanding of religion and life after death. Thinking I had got as far in comprehension of the "big questions" as was possible. I feel that indicates just how confused we are by religion and social engineering ( and maybe genetics and the physical experience as a whole). Now I think why should we not have the answers?

The next big thing is understanding the mechanism and interaction of the realities, which seems complex beyond imagination.

I did notice you did not elaborate on the higher self concet much, which I feel might be a good way for us to understand everything. Have you read 'The Daemon'?
edit on 20-10-2010 by Majestic23 because: (no reason given)

posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 06:28 PM
reply to post by schuyler

Star, Flag, and Bravo!

Hello again schuyler! I enjoyed the OP, the articulation, the understandings you have compiled, and the passion you have demonstrated.

Personally, I feel certain things, I think I understand some things, but I still don't know. Through the continious sharing, giving, taking, bonding, absorbing, and releasing of energy, compounds, elements, atoms, and subatomic particles... I logically conclude, through my personal understanding and opinion, that all things in existence are linked and came from the same source.

Do we have a soul? What is a soul? Is "reality" an illusion? What is consciousness? Is "life" a cycle of reincarnation? Is there more for "me" after death, or does my "physical being" simply break down to join new "physical beings", while this consciousness will never again exist? Is this life right now the only life I will experience? I do not know.

When pondering ideas of Oneness, Unity, Group Soul (Memory Complex), Reincarnation, or "I am every person".... I am always taken back by people that can sexually rape infants, babies, and young children. I can't cope with genocide. When people rape, hurt, injure, murder, and are cruel to other humans, I can't believe it is all needed, all necessary, all a way to learn, or justified.

Such things do make "life" hell. If Creator, or "Us", or "Me", or any other being is doing such things, allowing such things to happen to learn, experience, or develop, I say it's goddam time this "lesson" is over!

posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 06:35 PM
Applause.................I love it. I've given some thought to this very same topic.

I wish you luck, just try to avoid hurting someone else in your quest, and I got your back if I can help.

edit on 20-10-2010 by Khaaaaaan!! because: (no reason given)

posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 06:43 PM
Outstanding post. Right on brother! If this a lesson,then when I am THE CREATOR.....I'm tearing this one from the lesson plan and burning it.

posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 06:50 PM
If reincarnation is real and a god exists, then maybe the purpose of it is for us to experience all of god's creation. Maybe our creator can't experience it like we can and the only way he can is through us. Maybe the purpose of us is to allow our creator to understand himself or his creation. Maybe we're being used as a mirror. We are the only current beings that we know of that can learn and understand how the universe works. Maybe once we've experienced and learned everything then our job will be complete and the cycle will end.

posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 06:55 PM
According to NonDualist theory (Hinduism) everything is God.
So you have two choices. Become God Realized or Remain as the Quaking Mess (Alan Watts) Ego.
Becoming God Realized is nearly impossible and Begs the Question, How long does this REalization last?
If it only last until the death of the body then it is a lot of effort for a short time.

Someone asked Yogananda if there is a Hell. He replied, Where do you think you are?

You are damned it you do and damned if you dont.

posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 06:58 PM
"So this torture is how you maintain progress
And aim the the stress and blame those that's left
for how we chose to step in this game of death
And rebirth"

"My breaths endowed with your graces, and why I can't let it out without trading places"
I'm with you and have been for years, great thread.

posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 07:04 PM
reply to post by ShnogTrip

That's all fine and dandy, but what in the heck could some supreme Creator or "Us" collectively possibly gain from a sick f# raping a 2 month old child? Is this for the better developmental elevation of that child? Did "we" collectively or Creator find it necessary to experience such horror first hand as the infant? Did "we" collectively or Creator feel the need to get off that way as the rapist?

Creator needing all vessels to experience existence, that's fine. "Us" collectively needing to mature, grow, learn, experience, develop, and elevate through life and shared consciousness is understandable. But a sick f# raping a 2 month old.... what the hell is there to gain other than anger, rage, and pain? "Hi, I'm (Creator or "We" collectively), I needed to experience raping a new born to learn it is not a good thing." Please excuse my anger, but F-word that!!

posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 07:05 PM
You are free to do as you choose, but you can only win the game by defeating yourself.

Also, I get this feeling that whatever you have suffered wrongly, you will be somehow paid in full at some point in the "future."
edit on 20-10-2010 by xiphias because: (no reason given)

posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 07:10 PM
reply to post by schuyler

I choose to believe that we have gone through all of this pain; all of this learning to get to the point where we no longer need to believe that life sucks. Think about all of the technology that is currently available to us, that was discovered and created in the name of convenience or comfort. Now imagine if such technology was freely available to everyone. A world where you were entitled to what you create, where everyone gave up their intellect and achievements with whole-hearted altruism accompanied by the knowledege that everyone else does the same simply for the good of our species and an enhanced quality of life. then I would say this place is pretty kick ass.

life is what you make of it

posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 07:14 PM

edit on 20-10-2010 by ShnogTrip because: forgot to quote

posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 07:16 PM

Originally posted by Sahabi
reply to post by ShnogTrip

That's all fine and dandy, but what in the heck could some supreme Creator or "Us" collectively possibly gain from a sick f# raping a 2 month old child? Is this for the better developmental elevation of that child? Did "we" collectively or Creator find it necessary to experience such horror first hand as the infant? Did "we" collectively or Creator feel the need to get off that way as the rapist?

Creator needing all vessels to experience existence, that's fine. "Us" collectively needing to mature, grow, learn, experience, develop, and elevate through life and shared consciousness is understandable. But a sick f# raping a 2 month old.... what the hell is there to gain other than anger, rage, and pain? "Hi, I'm (Creator or "We" collectively), I needed to experience raping a new born to learn it is not a good thing." Please excuse my anger, but F-word that!!

You make a good point. Assuming there's a god, if he allows for babies to be raped and burned alive just so he can experience it or just so we can experience it then it seems like we're dealing with a being that is using and abusing his creation.

posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 07:24 PM
The implication is that you are your own God, we are all God. If time and space are conceptual then good and evil are aswell. This type of reaity works only by opposing forces that manifest it. Why do the Powers not care about people? Because they dont look at it like we do. They dont fear karma so why should we other than by personal choice, be good people?

posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 08:16 PM
I hope my post didn't come off as an aggressive attack against you. I just got caught in the rage of imagining the true evils humans are capable of.

I do try to live in unity with my fellow humans, and often times this quest for unity and inner peace does lead me to believe we are all one, or that God/Creator manifested as ALL, so that it, he, we, could experience all of existence in every single possible way. But I have a hard time understanding or accepting deep and horrid evils. I do understand evil and negativity (as I perceive and understand it) as a tool to illustrate the good, the pure, and also as a catalyst for free choice. But the unthinkables... infant rape... genocide... there was even a woman that microwaved her new born to death... I just can't feel unity or understanding in instances like this.

So in spirit of the OP, if this is God's creation, if we are Gods, if we are all one, if reincarnation, if reality is an illusion... I really think we have learned enough from all of the evils mankind is capable of. Let the pain, suffering, and hell end already!

posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 08:34 PM
I´ve thought about this same thing long and hard recently, and this is what I came up with. Don´t know if its true, but I hope it is. I will write what I think is happening and why we experience suffering and the possible purpose of human life. But first a basic idea on what I think of God and reality:

My thought is that, 'God' whatever that means, truly has always existed and is indeed the only existence. I think God is Light and we are in a major light show. I think we are each a part, like a hair on its head or even just a atom etc. But also in a sense we are the whole of God hidden in the small part that we are. Its all a ilusion. But I think "we" exist in endless dimensions with endless possibilities. Like in one I am a boy and in another I'm a green alien, but then next I am almost the same as here but I have different colored eyes. Basically, every variation exists. Also I think there is no time and "We" are both in the past and future and present all at once. I think the universe was both created and never created. I basically believe that God did not chose to have hate and evil exist, it simply does because God is everything. In that sense, God is perfect in being whole and complete and nothing lacking. If we could view all of creation from its entirety then we would probably realize that all is an illusion or dream about possibilities and therefore we would not suffer or fear we would just move on to the next thought or dream. However as humans, and only being a hair of God, our perspective is limited and we see these bad possibilities and feel them and suffer them, as well as enjoy the good and it feels real but its not real its dreamlike. Dreams can feel real.

Here is my main point: I think that something miraculous is happening. I think God having always been this way was unconscious, but God has lived some many possibilities now that He/She/It is waking up. Hence, we are waking up. God is becoming conscious of even the suffering of the tiny hairs of its head, or of a smushed bumble bee, or a even a bacteria, God has now seen, and heard and felt the pain through so many creatures as well as joy. And now God/or US, are getting opinions (as humans so) and deciding what WE don't like about US. Therefore we keep improving technology etc and getting rid of diseases that people died of in the past, and getting more comfort. Yes, there is alot of evil and hate, but also people live longer now and now we have the internet to connect us, in many ways we are uniting and finding answers to I think is that God is consciously choosing become perfect in a new way. Instead of being "all that can exist". God is deciding to re-shape and sculpt itself to be "all that it wants to be". God is deleting the evil, in a sense, Jesus is then a perfect symbol of God literally killing sin by sacrificing that part of Itself. I think we are coming to a place and time someday where we can leave evil behind because our vast collective consciousness will have built a new house for us to "live" in, one realized without evil or suffering. Its like alchemy. The final goal is the gold. What was once inert becomes really alive with purpose. Humans minds are the tool to realize all the crap that needs to be deleted. (or sent to the outter abyss, so to speak, since God probably can't cut a piece of itself off, it has to section off an area of its mind to allow what it believes are its best assets to flourish. A area of Love and hope, joy and beauty. But i also think that maybe all that is evil is empty space and that the conscious part of God which fills all space is never evil. Maybe we can forget evil, we can leave it behind. So the miracle is that God became conscious of itself and is taking all of its raw material and carving away to make itself into its vision of perfection which is LOVE. I don't know how long this will all take, I think it has already happened because there is no time, we just have to wake up to it each soul individually. But I think someday all souls will live in love and peace. What seems like millions or billions of years to us, is but a blink of the eye. And then we will really rejoice, and know God loves us.

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