Creating a thread to collect all the inconsistencies and errors in JT's large body of work.

First one is a fundamental scientific one. (And really the only one needed its that blatant).

In this image:

This is a picture taken in the fall of 2035 during my training. It shows my instructor beaming a handheld laser outside the vehicle during operation. The beam is being bent by the gravitational field produced outside the vehicle by the distortion unit. The beam is visible through smoke that is coming from his cigar.

He claims the light from the laser is being bent as it passes through the gravitational field of the device. If this was the case, ALL the light passing near the device would be bent. This would give a gravitational lensing effect that would be noticeable in the image. Also, the light reflecting off the smoke particles would also be bent on its return trip to the observer, thus the laser beam would still appear straight to the observer.



Another big one is his claims of Civil Unrest and indeed a Civil War in the US in 2004/2005. (He actually contradicts himself a few times, saying 2005 instead of 2004 and vice versa).
The civil war in the United States will start in 2004. I would describe it as having a Waco type event every month that steadily gets worse.
and again:
This becomes apparent around 2004 as civil unrest develops near the next presidential election.

Now, we haven't seen any Waco type events so far. Nor any Civil Unrest leading up to this coming election.


Another large thing with all of Titor's comments and predictions. Is that he never once mentioned 9-11, the Bali Bombing, the Madrid Bombings, the Invasion of Afghanistan or Iraq. In fact nothing about the war on terror at all.

He does however comment on the Palestinian/Israeli conflict (the Intifada started in September 2000, so that had already happened when he started posting). He claims this conflict has a hand in bringing the US into civil war. As it stands, this conflict has settled down somewhat, and there are far far greater international issues that affect the US.



Now, why would Titor post a fake picture of his 'Time Machine' in action?
Why would he be wrong about the start of a Civil war in the US?
Why would he not mention the War on Terror or any of the attacks/invasions?

Simply put, because his story is a hoax. A quite well researched and executed hoax. But a hoax nonetheless. My guess is he didn't click about the light-bending picture (or perhaps didn't notice the error). He was guessing about the Civil war. At the time there was a big fuss about the 2000 US elections, (he hinted that Florida's votes would be discounted at one stage). He timed the 'civil war' to start around the next US elections. Fairly safe guess at the time because it was still 4 years down the track. He didn't mention the War on Terror because he didn't know, he, like the rest of us, didn't see it coming.

What other errors and inconsistencies are out there in Titors posts? This is just from a cursory look.

Well,
I've said some of the same things elsewhere (just as these 'debunking' claims have been made elsewhere), but here they go:

It is just the beginning of the summer of 2004. He specifically stated that the civil unrest began around/because of the election. He also stated that there was no general date on which the war 'began'. rather, people felt that it began around 2004 in retrospect. Also, when did WW2 start? If i asked a British member of ATS they'd say 1939... an American member would say 1941. A Chinese member would say 1933. When he gives the date of 2004 he is not giving an exact date like December 7, 1941... because the war was amorphous for a few years. It was only around 2008 that most people acknowledged that a civil war was occuring.

Also... How do we know that people's homes AREN'T being raided as we speak. A lot of what he talked about sounds very similar to the effects of the Patriot act... for all we know some of the searches that have already occured are what JT is thinking about.

As for the laser, both KTPKR and myself have commented about that in another thread. To summarize what I said elsewhere, a person in 1904 looking at photos of Gemini astronauts spacewalking would deem such photos 'hoaxes' because they violated the 'laws' of physics.

Just to play devils advocate for a minute. . . Maybe 9-11 didn't happen in his timeline. Because he did mention small differances in things, and did say that this wasn't the exact same timeline, didn't he? Maybe 9-11 didn't happen for him. . .as the Civil War isn't happening for us.

john titor is a quack. hes read way to much science fiction and thinks that everyone is dumber than he is. that why he is saying all this stuff cause he thinks that all of use are stupid schlubs! and isnt that fiber optic wires in that picture?

He said that the middle east would soon be "a no legger and no armer" or something like that... which implies active US involvement in mid-east politics.

Again, a real person from the future wouldn't categorize information the way we do. For him, everything that's going on in the mideast is just a series of minor skirmishes that form a prelude to a much larger and more dramatic war. It's unreasonable to expect someone from 32 years in the future to have the same focus that we do. If you or I went back to as little ago as 1990, we might fail to mention the first WTC bombing, the Khobar towers bombing, or the war in Rwanda. Someone going back to the 1930s might not mention the sinking of the Reuben James.

All in all, 9-11 is the equivalent of the Reuben James sinking for JT (within the context of his story). He's a veteran from a war that resulted in tens of millions of deaths. For that reason, he'd be interested in the things that led up to that war -- domestic polarization in the us -- and not just things we're worried about.

In the end, we have to judge JT based on his prediction. So far, I see a heavily polarized country, the spread of mad cow disease, and things like the patriot act. We'll know, if fighting starts after november, if he was telling the truth.

It is an intresting read, but I doubt he is a time travellar. He does not give enough specifics, like the president at the time of the civil war or who wins the election, people he does not name people.

We have roughly 5 months before this "civil war" and there is little evidence to show unrest. Only way I can see this, if Bush wins and Kerry gets really really pissed off. But there would need to be alot of social unrest right now, a civil war cannot just happen spur of the moment.

Originally posted by JediMaster
It is an intresting read, but I doubt he is a time travellar. He does not give enough specifics, like the president at the time of the civil war or who wins the election, people he does not name people.

We have roughly 5 months before this "civil war" and there is little evidence to show unrest. Only way I can see this, if Bush wins and Kerry gets really really pissed off. But there would need to be alot of social unrest right now, a civil war cannot just happen spur of the moment.

Kerry wins and militias begin to form again. the fed pursues them. By 2008 Kerry is overwhelmed and replaced by Hillary Clinton... the female president JT may be talking about.

Also, keep in mind that John edwards might be Kerry's running mate. Edwards proposed creating a domestic intelliegnce force during the primaries.

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
He specifically stated that the civil unrest began around/because of the election.

He stated there would be Waco type events monthly through 2004. Not home-raiding. Waco type events.

As for the laser, both KTPKR and myself have commented about that in another thread. To summarize what I said elsewhere, a person in 1904 looking at photos of Gemini astronauts spacewalking would deem such photos 'hoaxes' because they violated the 'laws' of physics.

They didn't violate the 'laws' of physics in 1904. The comparison is weak at best.

He is trying to use the 'bending' of his light as evidence of the strong gravitational field surrounding the device. If the light from the laser pointer bends, ALL the light should bend. It really is that simple.

His laser also has a grey area in the center of it. Its not becuase of his cigar smoke, since if you follow the line of red laser with your finger you'll find that its grey. Most likely fiber optics. Same with the tip where it bends.

A laser would need refective material to do that, from what I have read its impossible for it to bend so slightly. Therefore the weight of fiber optics can make that.

I'm with you on this one, Kano. I wasn't aware of the Titor story prior to joining ATS, but I've read the source material thoroughly, and there are two possible options.

He's lying, or he's insane.

A Titor Debunking Exercise should be part of the ATS newb-training program. Candidates are required to discuss the internal inconsistencies (aka The Lies), the flawed physics, the inherent philosphical and metaphysical contradictions relating to the practical application of time travel, the dubious depiction of the political and economic paradigm of the his world, the suspiciously incomplete information ragarding our "near-future", and, of course, the shocking lack of any evidence whatsoever.

It's a great story - and, as a sci-fi writer, I feel qualified to comment on that bit - but it's complete bunk.

The Infitada is too small to be the cause of civil unrest, maybe the war in Iraq but not a matter between the Jews and Palestinians. He missed 9/11, the war on terror, and I the beheadings of the hostages, something that would've been and should've been relayed to him to us.

Maybe ATS needs a John Titor Exposing the Hoax, research project.

Originally posted by Kano

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
He specifically stated that the civil unrest began around/because of the election.

He stated there would be Waco type events monthly through 2004. Not home-raiding. Waco type events.

As for the laser, both KTPKR and myself have commented about that in another thread. To summarize what I said elsewhere, a person in 1904 looking at photos of Gemini astronauts spacewalking would deem such photos 'hoaxes' because they violated the 'laws' of physics.

They didn't violate the 'laws' of physics in 1904. The comparison is weak at best.

He is trying to use the 'bending' of his light as evidence of the strong gravitational field surrounding the device. If the light from the laser pointer bends, ALL the light should bend. It really is that simple.

Actually, Kano, it was accepted by scientific circles in 1904 that rocket propulsion in space was impossible because the rocket's gases had nothing to push against. This logic was one of the reasons why Goddard had to (later on) receive funding from people like Henry Ford... he was considered a 'quack' and many scientific circles shunned him

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
Again, a real person from the future wouldn't categorize information the way we do.

Therein lies the problem, you seem to be obsessed with treating him like a Nostradamus. Instead of a person from the future who has returned.

If it was a person from the future they would know the specifics and be able to give them. Did Titor even ever mention which party won the 2004 elections? I think not. Did Titor give any specifics whatsoever that could be tested? Not really no.

But really, when talking about a 'coming US civil war'. Why would he cite the Palestinian/Israeli conflict as one of the causes for the Civil war, but fail to mention anything about the WTC, or the Invasion of afghanistan/Iraq (Iraq especially) which would have a far greater effect on internal US politics.

Again I point out the lack of any Waco type incidents or Civil unrest in 2004.

He isn't Nostradamus, you can't take his words and twist and turn them to make prophecies, as much as you would like to.

Originally posted by JediMaster
The Infitada is too small to be the cause of civil unrest, maybe the war in Iraq but not a matter between the Jews and Palestinians. He missed 9/11, the war on terror, and I the beheadings of the hostages, something that would've been and should've been relayed to him to us.

Maybe ATS needs a John Titor Exposing the Hoax, research project.

Can you, off hand, name the major battles of Japan's initial manchurian campaign?

Nope, but I get where your going.

But the war on terror is a major world wide known thing, something that will not be forgetten in under 30 years, maybe 300 but in 2035 this would be still known.

I remember this guy or somebody like him on an interview way back about 3 years. As I was getting ready to go to work, I used to listen to Mad Cow (he was banned after that in our local network) and I used to like the crazy interviews, and this guy pops up and say that he was a time traveler from the future and in the interview occurs Man Cow make fun of him because the guy sounded tired so Man Cow made references of having sex or something like it, and the guy when on talking about the future and the world war and about one government and billions of people that die, and to tell the world that we were in great danger, and truly it sounded very familiar to this guy.

Any comments on this.?

Originally posted by ktprktpr
Every contention that has been brought up, even the laser light, has either been to weak or incorrect. Irrespective what anyone thinks

Deny that ignorance young man.

He posts the light-bending picture as evidence of the gravitational field around the device. Gravitational fields do not specifically target one beam of light and bend that alone. We know this from observing (and even making use of) gravity lensing in astronomy.

Now, even if we did want to get all fancy, and pretend that somehow he made a special gravitational field that ONLY effected that frequency of light. How are we seeing the beam of light? We are seeing the light reflected off the smoke particles from the cigar (according to his story). THAT light is the same frequency as the light from the laser. It would be bent by the 'special' gravitational field. As such the beam would still appear straight.

Quite simply, the bent beam is BS. We are already aware of the light-bending properties of Gravity, that is why Titor used this as an example of his device. Failing to realise the flaw in his image.

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
Actually, Kano, it was accepted by scientific circles in 1904 that rocket propulsion in space was impossible because the rocket's gases had nothing to push against.

That doesn't mean that the fundamental laws of physics were different in 1904, onlyinmydreams, it just means that contemporary understanding of those laws was flawed.

Originally posted by JediMaster
Maybe ATS needs a John Titor Exposing the Hoax, research project.

Despite being enormously saddened that we would need such a redundant project, count me in. It's time this nonsense was buried with a stake in it's heart.

i just finished reading the titor articles on abovetopsecret. That was a damn good job of debunking their Kano. See this is what i thought when i viewed that picture. "The qaulity of that picture is low res crap". You would think in 2035 or whatever date he claimed they would be using cameras capable of making better qaulity pictures. i mean you can hardly tell he has a cigar. you can hardly tell that is a laser pin.BTW was this Titor guy a member of ats?

[edit on 6/26/2004 by machinegunjordan]