John Titor: Hoax, page 2
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reply posted on 26-6-2004 @ 03:04 PM by onlyinmydreams
Originally posted by Kano
Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
Again, a real person from the future wouldn't categorize information the way we do.

Therein lies the problem, you seem to be obsessed with treating him like a Nostradamus. Instead of a person from the future who has returned.

If it was a person from the future they would know the specifics and be able to give them. Did Titor even ever mention which party won the 2004 elections? I think not. Did Titor give any specifics whatsoever that could be tested? Not really no.

But really, when talking about a 'coming US civil war'. Why would he cite the Palestinian/Israeli conflict as one of the causes for the Civil war, but fail to mention anything about the WTC, or the Invasion of afghanistan/Iraq (Iraq especially) which would have a far greater effect on internal US politics.

Again I point out the lack of any Waco type incidents or Civil unrest in 2004.

He isn't Nostradamus, you can't take his words and twist and turn them to make prophecies, as much as you would like to.



I'm not trying to bend whatver he says into what happened... what I'm saying is that what people insist are 'contradictions' are not actually that. These are only contradictions if you believe that everything that happens in the world fits some sort of mechanistic pattern that is determined by ideology. Many JT debunkers fail to acknowledge that their perspective of the world may not be the one generally agreed upon in 2036. It may turn out that people in 2036 consider the Palestinian-Israeli conflict to be a cause of the war (Israel can be said to inspire terrorists, for instance). Looking back over the decades, that struggle may loom large than 9-11.

Also, it must be pointed out that neo-cons pushed for the invasion of Iraq, partly, as a way to protect Israel. So, in retrospect, the israeli-palestinian conflict may be seen as a cause for the Iraq invasion.

As for details... why WOULD he mention the parties and names? He repeatedly stated that he wasn't here so as to give betting tips for people... he also said that he wouldn't give info that could allow people to benefit monetarily. His stated goal, instead, was to comment on overall lifestyle decisions people were making. In particular, he repeatedly talked about mad cow and its variants. So... if you were a time traveller form the future, and millions had just died because of disease and nuclear war, would you comment on the lifestyle choices that led to those problems or what, in retrospect, was a small side war a few years before a nuclear holocaust.


reply posted on 26-6-2004 @ 03:26 PM by onlyinmydreams
Let's see how well I could do as a time voyager (let's say I went back to 1962):

How do you guys share information?
"We read papers and watch television, but we also send information over the telephone lines in the form of images and text."

When was that invented?
"I'm not sure, I think it started as a militart thing in the 1960s."

This phone service you use?
"Well, it wasn't used by civilians until the 90s, but I know a few guys who used something like it before then."

Do we land on the moon?
"Yes, we landed on the moon."

How much does it cost to buy a moon ticket?
"You can't buy a ticket to the moon, we don't fly there."

What problems does your society have?
"Well, many parts of the inner city are riddled with crime. The housing projects have a lot of problems."

What year did crime start to go up?
"In the late 60s/early 70s, I believe"

Do we fight a war with the communists?
"Yes, but not with Russia in russia, though Russians sent a lot of advisors to the actual war."

Which was with someone else?
"Yeah, we fought the communists in asia."

So we went to war with China?
"No, vietnam."

But we've said we won't get involved with the problems there.
"Well, we get into it slowly."

When is war declared?
"It isn't."

So there isn't a war?
"Yes and no, it's an armed conflict that's undecalred."

When does it start?
"Well, it's going on now, in a way, but it doesn't start until 1964, unofficially, still. It, arguably, started in 1954."


--

Now, I've answered every question above as well as I can without giving away info someone could bet on... yet someone in 1962 could say that I was being evasive and contradictory. Their own beliefs might also be used to 'debunk' what I said.

For instance:
1.I couldn't pin down a date for the start of the Vietnam war (which can be said to have many beginnings)
2.In 1962 we were involved in Vietnam, but most americans were unaware of either the involvement or its scope. So... i would be 'lying' by most standards in this regard.
3.Crime and failed social projects... in 62 things like housing projects were seen by many politicians as a necessary step in rehabing cities. My report on their failure might be ignored if it was judged by 1962 values.


reply posted on 26-6-2004 @ 04:01 PM by Aero
I read the JT story about 8 months ago now and i feel the same way today as i did then. There is absolutely no way to either fully debunk or fully believe his story. The attack on the world trade can be seen as a direct response to the fact that the united states has repeatedly backed the Israelis. Perhaps in the future the events he spoke of will be exposed as a large underlying factor in the attacks on the trade center. To stick with the vietnam scenario how many people knew we were executing attacks in cambodia? Not many at all. ALSO to tell people about a major death causing event before it happened could cause any number of major problems. Like JT said the war came from the cities and the rural communities. Perhaps if someone who died in the wtc lived he would have led the cities to further kill and destroy. As far as civil unrest goes... i dont know where you live but here in NYC everyday people are taking to the streets and protesting everything from public housing to the president himself. So to say you dont see it is to be blind. But then there are instances like the pictures and some comments which lead one in the other direction. As a time traveler, everything you chose to say can theoretically lead to death and suffering. So the most ethical thing i could see to do is to be vague enough not to sway peoples decision making. Personally i think that if the altrnate worlds theory is correct then time travel if unable to do it with a 100% accuracy is a waste of time because you will never get "home", and it is theoretically impossible on a one world line scenario. (at least i couldnt see it as reasonable. ask if you want my reasoning) My point in all of this is that there is evidence enough to prove both sides... and there is no way to ever know if he really was a time traveler. If a civil war does come to pass perhaps the debunkers will still say he only guessed; which is quite possible. If one doesnt come to pass in so blatant a way as JT proclaimed the believers will say he somehow stopped it. So believe or dont there is no way to fully prove it.

"Time travel is nothing more ... than a greedy man's folly"

Vir Fidelis



reply posted on 26-6-2004 @ 04:52 PM by Kano
Aero, all good points, and on the basis of the lack of comment regarding the War on Terror alone, you are correct. It is not possible to absolutely show that he is a hoax from missing out those topics.

It does however, make the chances of him being for real drastically smaller. Again, he mentions all sorts of bits and pieces, yet he never mentions the largest terrorist attack in history or the entire War on Terror, with all its subsequent attacks and invasions. Doesn't mention any of it. Even when he arrives only a year before it begins. Strongly suggesting that he was unaware of it, and therefore hoaxing.

Even still, there is that slight chance that he is still real. Hell, theres even a slight chance that I am a machine sent back from the future to debunk him.

But, when we take that on top of the fact that his predictions about 2004 have not come to pass. As well as the fact that his light bending picture (his 'proof' of the gravitational field) is so massively flawed. The chances of him being for real rapidly approach zero.

The really sad thing is that the people who are making a choice to believe in this, will tie themselves to the theory so strongly. That if the perpetrator was to actually come out now and admit to the hoax, wishing to claim the 'greatest hoaxer' crown. They would not believe him. Instead wishing to cling to their romanticised tales of a time traveller named John Titor.

Incidentally, if I was to guess at the identity of the Hoaxer, I would have to go with an idea I read somewhere that it might be a Science Fiction author. Although barring an admission I doubt we will ever know. If only the staff/members of the boards he visited were a little more on the ball and had found out at the time.
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