The Catholic Church: Deceptions and Control

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
And, if you feel hatred welling up in you because of anything I have said...

Maybe you will now understand what it was like to be a Pharisee at the time of Jesus.

So, you don't have an answer to my questions, then. In the face of common sense, you rely on conspiracy, issue shifting and name calling. You expect that one should abandon solid beliefs of faith in favour of your claim of enlightenment, when you fail to even address an obvious and easily understood contradiction, as I have asked you to.

Claiming that only an outsider can see things in another light makes some degree of sense, but you've presented zero evidence to show that you've seen anything other than what you want to see. And, while that is of supreme importance to you, and I think that's just grand, your elitist, confusing and contradictory system of beliefs is of no interest to me, and not likely to be of interest to anyone else who has even a passing knowledge of the facts.

reply to post by adjensen

Source, please? While "far above average" is somewhat subjective, I have heard otherwise, so would appreciate factual correction. One of the earliest and most famous that I can recall was a minister in my own faith, Jeff Smith, though the accusations that he faced were outside of the church, when he was known as "The Frugal Gourmet."

I'll retract my statement as this is my thread, and I cannot find an article or source to back up my statement. I'm sure I've read an article concerning this, though admittedly, its been a few years. If I can come across it, I will post it.

Originally posted by lambs to lions
So, is your God a discriminist for only granting salvation to those who bury their head in the sand of religious doctrine?

God grants salvation to those who ask for it. Do you believe that he should grant salvation to those who don't ask for it? For those who outrightly reject it?

Explain to me, please, how I "bury my head in the sand of religious doctrine"? I am an elder in the Methodist Church, kindly explain how the views that I hold that are not in keeping with the Book of Discipline are reconciled with your claim that I am buried in doctrine?

However, the fact of the matter is that the masses are by an large easily manipulated. Religion serves these types of people well for there is no need to think, just do as you are told and it will all be okay. Don't do it and, well, you know what will happen. Scary.

Yes, loving God and everyone else as yourself are very dangerous commandments.

People can, and have, used religious manipulation to commit horrible acts, but you know what? Those acts are generally about power, not God, and in the absence of faith, they'd just use something else to get things done. Karl Marx would be in complete agreement with your statement, and yet the first bunch to try and adopt his system created one of the most foul, violent and controlling nations in history.

The tv that you have sitting in your home is far more manipulative and controlling than any priest. When will you start your campaign to ban that?

Originally posted by lambs to lions
reply to post by Shadowflux

 

Thanks, and I tend to agree with your points as well. It was just the other day I was asked to explain my beliefs by several family members. What started as interesting debate turned into "persecute the guy that doesn't follow a set religion". I think for most people it is hard for them to wrap their mind around the idea of spirituality or faith without the construct of religion. Kind of like not being able the forest through the trees....

Man, I couldn't have said it better. I am what you will call "spiritual," I can easily see Grand Creators, a male and a female aspect, creating all of this that we know as our universe. I know that they do not get involved in the affairs of mankind, they do not "help," or "intervene" in anything that happens here on this plane. To do so, even once, would completely negate free will in every form. I think what we are is a Spirit in human form, and this Spirit is a part of the Grand Creators, we are their children, so to speak. I know this is looking at it in human terms, but notice I place no religious aspect to this. Our "job" as it were is to advance, to evolve into a higher being, an ever more spiritual being, coming ever closer to the Grand Creators, that which are our Father and our Mother.

I can see the Divine Presence in all things Nature. I do not see it in any building, whether it is a church or not. In the Old Days people would gather near a place of energy, a Ley Line, and do ritual and prayer to better their lives, bless their children and crops, and help the growing season. During holiday, they would gather around a great fire to have joy and revelatory times before their parents.

I sometimes long for the Old Days.

reply to post by adjensen

God grants salvation to those who ask for it. Do you believe that he should grant salvation to those who don't ask for it? For those who outrightly reject it?

Yes, I believe He does grant salvation to those who ask for it. I believe this regardless of a man's religion, or if he should decide to not rely on other men for his beliefs. Regarless of the history of those men, or the scripture which they rely on to validate their beliefs. I believe God accepts us. I believe as His creation, he knew very well our nature. We yearn to know where we came from, to know our Creator, is it not natural to seek out those answers for yourself?

People can, and have, used religious manipulation to commit horrible acts, but you know what? Those acts are generally about power, not God, and in the absence of faith, they'd just use something else to get things done. Karl Marx would be in complete agreement with your statement, and yet the first bunch to try and adopt his system created one of the most foul, violent and controlling nations in history.

This we can agree on. Marxism perhaps could only work if Jesus Himself were in charge.

The tv that you have sitting in your home is far more manipulative and controlling than any priest. When will you start your campaign to ban that?

C'mon, let's not go there. I couldn't survive without my ESPN.

reply to post by autowrench


I strongly believe that we used to be more in "tune" with our Creator. Before the explosion of technology, there was much more that we were aware of, as you mentioned when you spoke of ley lines. As we are a part of nature, we should very well be more in touch with it. There have always been light and dark forces at work amongst us, but perhaps a "oneness" existed at one time. A oneness between each other as well as the universe and a knowledge of our creation. I don't know, but I do often think about the idea that we are here to evolve spiritually, until the point we are ready and can comprehend our true selves as well as our Creator.

there are many theories about who wrote the bible, etc etc.

some people have studied these theories and concluded:

1. "Christianity" and "Islam", were created by Hebrew-Jewish scholars during what is now called the "dark ages".

2. during this time, they rewrote history to accommodate their agenda at the time, including a "rewrite" of Hebrew history (not hard to do! they had time, and not many common people could read and write at high levels back then).

3. the scholars were in Khazaria, with heavy Hebrew influence, and had a strong military, and strong economy.

4. Khazaria was later invaded (1100's ?) and most citizens (mostly converted Jews) migrated to southern Russia and Eastern Europe. Most converted Jews there had very little, if any, "Israelite" DNA, (proof exists today, as most "European Jews" have little or no "Israelite" DNA.

5. the English language was also invented by the same scholar institutions at the time. They had to discover a way to "manipulate" words and meanings, to allow for change in the future. Latin and other "old" languages were not good enough. Arabic at the time was also a problem, but they were able to invent new meanings from the existing middle-eastern languages.

now, we see a classic "theory -- anti-theory" setup.

they were masters of deception ... much like we see today with the Jewish influences everywhere.


search for items related to this and you will find a lot.


makes some sense as we look at today's religious-political-economic picture!

if any of this is true, it would be like "the fox writing directions on how to guard a hen house"!

and today we see much "manipulation" by media, and "governments" in attempts to "change history".
(like schoolbooks not having the correct historical information etc etc).

Has anybody studied these theories?

please comment.

reply to post by xuenchen


Cool, some new blood into this thread. Thanks for your addition. I have not done any research on Khazaria, but I will definitely look into to now that you have brought it up. I can however comment on one of the things that you brought up:

and today we see much "manipulation" by media, and "governments" in attempts to "change history".

This I believe has been going on forever. History is only as accurate as the texts and school books that it is recorded in. As I believe the Bible is proof of this theory. It appears that there is much that Genesis doesn't cover, but at one time may have. It is all very frustrating. Those who have the knowledge always attempt to control it, by controlling it, they wield the power. Or, perceived power.

Originally posted by lambs to lions
We yearn to know where we came from, to know our Creator, is it not natural to seek out those answers for yourself?

It's not only natural, I think that the sign of a healthy faith is one that continues to seek for answers. However, you give the impression that you believe that a required step in the search for answers is the jettisoning of organized religion, and I disagree with that, because both religion and theology help one discern between rational and irrational beliefs.

I spent a number of years outside of the church after becoming disillusioned with fundamentalism and the political gyrations of the Religious Right in the 1980s, and held similar beliefs that, so long as I was "good with God", being part of a faith community didn't matter all that much. The result of that was a rather weak faith which played a minor role in my life. Going back to the church allowed me to grow as a spiritual person, to better interact with others, and to solidify my faith, which has subsequently carried me through some very dark times, and continues to do so.

Continue your seeking and your questioning, and you'll likely get it all sorted out. You may find a community of believers out there that you will find more to your liking than the Catholic Church, heck, even ATS is a community, though a little less focused than the Episcopalians or Methodists up the street, lol.

Originally posted by lambs to lions
reply to post by xuenchen

 

Cool, some new blood into this thread. Thanks for your addition. I have not done any research on Khazaria, but I will definitely look into to now that you have brought it up. I can however comment on one of the things that you brought up:

and today we see much "manipulation" by media, and "governments" in attempts to "change history".

This I believe has been going on forever. History is only as accurate as the texts and school books that it is recorded in. As I believe the Bible is proof of this theory. It appears that there is much that Genesis doesn't cover, but at one time may have. It is all very frustrating. Those who have the knowledge always attempt to control it, by controlling it, they wield the power. Or, perceived power.

I'm glad somebody has an open mind about all this!

here's a couple of links to look at for starters:

www.khazaria.com...

www.khazaria.com...

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by xuenchen
Has anybody studied these theories?

please comment.

Yes.

I am a pragmatist when it comes to conspiracy theories, because if there is one thing that I've learned about human nature, it is that people like to blab. Don't know why, I suppose it's some psychological aspect that causes us to want to have others think highly of us, but it's a truism.

As a result, in my view, the likelihood of a conspiracy is inversely proportional to the number of people needed to know about it, and the level of deviancy involved. In other words, as the number of people or the level of goofiness rises, the chance of a conspiracy lowers and reaches zero pretty fast.

You and a buddy want to cut up a cow and pretend aliens did it? Not too hard to get away with that. Massive government conspiracy that involves hundreds or thousands, hiding the fact that Canada has invaded Montana? Pretty sure someone's going to blab about that.

Given the preponderance of historical evidence that the church existed long prior to the Dark Ages, we have two options. The Jews either invented a time machine in the Dark Ages and altered the past to make it look like the church existed in ancient Rome, or they fabricated a massive amount of evidence, distributed it all over the place, correctly aged, consistent and correct. This would no doubt require a significant number of people to make happen, and yet no one has demonstrable evidence of it.

So, don't want to call your theories rubbish, but...

reply to post by adjensen


I don't mean to give the impression that I have abandoned all other faiths. I think that I stated earlier that much of my beliefs reside in Christian based religion. It is just that I refuse to be tied down to any particular religion in my pursuits. Thanks for all your input so far. Although, we don't see eye to eye on some things, I certainly respect any opinion which someone can defend as fiercly as you have. Good job.

reply to post by xuenchen


Just to say that historical revisionism to try to make things up to fit some fantasy is problematic because people end up believing a false version of history.

If there are those who suggest that during the Dark Ages Hebrew-Jewish scholars created Islam and Christianity then they are flying in the face of documented historical fact, archaeology and a hundred and one other issues that show this view is rubbish. I would encourage people who hanker for this type of clap-trap to go to a libray (with history books) and open their mind!

In addition, your point 5 goes against accepted wisdom and fact of how the English language evolved through time in synchronicity to complex social and cultural change. This is why the English language is so wide and rich. Just take a stroll through an English Shire and marvel and the many influences at village names – Viking, Roman, Saxon, French, German, Latin and others. English was not invented by Hebrew-Jewish scholars.

Dear me. Makes me wonder.

Regards

it is possible all the "evidence" has been more recently "fabricated".

we need to look deeper into WHO has been "discovering" all the "evidence".

centuries ago, "people" believed whatever their "rulers" may have said? communications were s-l-o-w too.

less population also. less educated people. easier to convince maybe?

in today's world, we see "evidence" "discovered" by usually the same group of current "scholars" - universities, govt "officials" etc etc. perhaps all under the same influences?

again, goes back to the "Fox in the hen house" idea?

Originally posted by xuenchen
it is possible all the "evidence" has been more recently "fabricated".

So, there is evidence of Christianity in ancient Rome. You theorize that it is fabricated. There is no evidence of your theory as to fabrication. Yet you believe the second, rather than the first. How is this rational?

Your thread has really attracted those who have preconceived notions and then selectively view the world to sustain them, lambs to lions, I'll give you that :-)

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
And, if you feel hatred welling up in you because of anything I have said...

Maybe you will now understand what it was like to be a Pharisee at the time of Jesus.

So, you don't have an answer to my questions, then.

There are a number of things that you don't understand about consciousness.

When the consciousness of the 'thinker' concocts a question, what it is looking for is more pleasure. It is not asking about the Truth because it does not care about Truth.

So, no, I don't have any answers to your questions because nothing I say will be pleasurable to you.

The only answer to you is an answer which is pleasurable.

In the face of common sense,

Merely another term for laziness or intellectual pleasure.

you rely on conspiracy, issue shifting and name calling. You expect that one should abandon solid beliefs

I don't expect this at all. In fact, I really don't care what you do.

Unlike the theologians, I am not asking you to pay my salary, or my pension, or for my health insurance.

of faith in favour of your claim of enlightenment,

I have never claimed to be "enlightened".

When will you stop lying about what I say?

when you fail to even address an obvious and easily understood contradiction, as I have asked you to.

Claiming that only an outsider can see things in another light makes some degree of sense, but you've presented zero evidence to show that you've seen anything other than what you want to see.

I cannot give you either the Vision of the "Son of man" or the Revelation of the "resurrection".

These and the Knowledge they Reveal are the only "evidences" that I have.

That is within the purview of only the Creator.

And, while that is of supreme importance to you, and I think that's just grand, your elitist,

Look.

Don't blame me that you have not received the Revelations I have received.

But, as Jesus says in his reply to the Sadducees: "...but those who are judged worthy of a place in the other world" receive the Revelation of the Memory of Creation and the revelation of the memories of previous lives.

So, maybe you should take this charge of "elitism" up with Jesus, huh?

confusing and contradictory system of beliefs

Don't have any "system of beliefs".

What I have is what has been Revealed to me.

is of no interest to me,

As I said, the consciousness of the 'thinker' cares only about intellectual pleasure (originating in the fear of death).

Since what I am talking about is Knowledge which has been Revealed, it is "of no interest to" you.

and not likely to be of interest to anyone else who has even a passing knowledge of the facts.

The Vision of the "Son of man" and the Revelation of the "resurrection" are facts with which you have no experience.

I am talking about a country that you have never visited. You have read books about it; you have seen pictures of it. But you have never visited it. And you compare your ideas about this country with books of ideas which have been written by other people who also have not visited the country. And all of you agree with each other--all of you who have never visited the country. But, when you encounter someone who has visited the country, what he or she says contradicts everyting that you have said as well as all of the books that have been written by those who have never visited the country.

This is upsetting to you.

It hurts your feelings; it offends you; it makes you angry.

I couldn't care less.

Michael

reply to post by adjensen


Easy there, that is your opinion on the matter. I started the thread because I was supremely interested in a discussion involving the following; Jesus, the Catholic Church, gnostic books, and religion. So far, I'd say its pretty interesting. I really enjoy hearing the points of view from a wide variety of folks. Especially, when they are galvanized in their opinions. Anyway, just to simply counter your staunch rational approach, I'll say, "Sometimes the Truth is stranger than fiction!"

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
This is upsetting to you.

It hurts your feelings; it offends you; it makes you angry.

I couldn't care less.

Gee, that's hardly an attitude that will sell books :-)

Nope, sorry, but nothing that you've said hurts my feelings, offends me, or makes me angry. You, your way of thinking and your "revelation" have nothing to offer me, so I'm scarcely in a position to be upset by it. Your misplaced arrogance is somewhat offensive, but if I was put off by arrogance, it would be difficult to participate in any forum on the Internet, lol.

On the contrary, you are the one who seems offended and angry that anyone would question your authority and visions. In the face of questioning and contradiction, you blame others for their lack of vision and accuse them of being in the wrong, when you can't even apparently convince yourself that you're in the right.

Good luck with things. I'm sure that there are some out there who will listen to you without critically thinking about it, and that's the audience that you need to seek.

Originally posted by lambs to lions
reply to post by adjensen

 

Easy there, that is your opinion on the matter. I started the thread because I was supremely interested in a discussion involving the following; Jesus, the Catholic Church, gnostic books, and religion. So far, I'd say its pretty interesting. I really enjoy hearing the points of view from a wide variety of folks. Especially, when they are galvanized in their opinions. Anyway, just to simply counter your staunch rational approach, I'll say, "Sometimes the Truth is stranger than fiction!"

Well, I welcome you to defend that premise -- given evidence, and a theory that said evidence is fake, and no evidence to back up that theory, why would you accept the theory over the actual evidence, unless you're simply practicing wishful thinking?

It is beyond the scope of your thread, and I'm sorry for derailing it, but this is a rather dangerous practice, not just in the realm of religion, but in pretty much every aspect of a search for the truth. If one begins a search for the truth with an expectation of what it will be, it is unlikely that information which runs counter to the expectation will be given the same credibility as information which supports it and, in the end, one can never be certain what truth is.

Here is a good read on the corruptions in the Bible my friend. It is a good start for decyphering fact from fiction within it. Trust not even this information, but weigh it all with your heart.

www.answering-christianity.com...

Christs lessons were lessons of Truth. If he were here today, I am certain he would measure a man by love in his heart the good works he has done for Mankind, and the love he has in his heart for this Creation. All else is commentary.

With Love,

Your Brother