Truth about China

Originally posted by Illmatic67
And China has an above average Navy. With most of our troops over seas, they can easily invade the Eastern coast of the United States uncontested.

Invade the East coast? What!? China would invade the West coast as it is right across the Pacific. What are you talking about? Im just curious to ask where you are drawing your assumption from, and why you magically picked the East coast as the invasion point.

Ive never seen you post here. Now I think I know why.

[edit on 29-6-2004 by Agent47]

but we dont have a lot of our carrier groups around the world try getting past those bad boys also their fleet would be sunk by our subs as soon as they deploy their forces.

It's amazing. America's greatest strength is also it's greatest weakness. As long as China plays it right, they can outfox us to the point they can pretty much hold the world in it's hand.

Finance is America's biggest strength. It's so strong and everything is defined by money in America. But since finance doesn't pledge allegiance to the flag, it can actually work against the U.S. Especially with mega-corporations like Microsoft opening markets and expanding business to China.

RobertFenix really got it. War seems even more unlikely now.

Originally posted by Illmatic67
I love how people under estimate China.

Napolean called China a "sleeping giant" because he knew China was a powerful force.

And as much as China relies on USA, USA also relies on China because after WWI, USA opened a lot of markets in Asia, especially in China.

And China has an above average Navy. With most of our troops over seas, they can easily invade the Eastern coast of the United States uncontested.

I agree with everything except that the Chinese can invade the U.S.

That is real absurd, no offense. Above-average can't even cut it. The U.S Navy would absolutely disintegrate the People's Liberation Army/Navy.

Also, invading the U.S. is like invading China. The ocean itself is a massive barrier. Moving forces across would be a disaster. Same as U.S. invading China. It just doesn't work.

China won't have the capability to invade US for a long time; that's the honest truth. We simply don't have the kind of force projection capability at this momentum. Besides the lack of large ships such as carriers, LHPs and other assult ships, we still lack fleet air-defense system. The 052 DDGs currently under construction are to fill in the gap of fleet air-defense system with their VLS systems. Without superior anti-sub and fleet air-defense system, our fleet would be chewed to pieces in the Pacific before it passes the isles of japan.

We simply don't have the capability to attack another well-armed nation now. We are more a defensive and land-based force for now although with all the new 052DDGs and 054FFGs, 2 new Sovremenny, 8 more Kilo subs we will be a more formidable force by 2005. But still, we won't have the ability to attack anywhere beyond the isles of japan.

Thanks

I'm pretty new to this forum. I have been following this thread for days.

This war-between-China-and-US assumption really made me sick. I was born in China and live in the US currently. I love both countries. If you ever ask my opinion, I'll say no war for ever between these two countries.

When we talk about a war between these two great countries, we should always ask ourselves several questions at first.

Do we have to have a war among us?
Is it possible to avoid such a war?
Is a war between these two manageable?
Who gonna benefit from a war like that?

A war among countries can be caused by many different reasons. Among those, the most formidable is the final break out of mutual hostility. In this scenario, the whole populations on both sides are very easily got mobilized into a fierce, uncontrollable disaster. A hostile attitude normally starts from misconception and distrust. So, for those of us have chances to contact each other in both sides share the responsibility to promote understanding and trust. Any patriotisms, nationalism, or rudeness and arrogance will do nothing but damage. Let�s put our vision longer into the future and wider to the whole world. As two great countries, the US - the only super power and China - one of the most influential countries in the third world really do not need to be foe to each other. If we can work out most of the difference among us and come to a common ground, the human being will be blessed for generations to come. So, folks, let don�t talk about war between us, let talk about how to MAKE friend to each other. Nobody in this world is born to be a friend to anyone else. You have to pay attention or effort to make friends.

As to the relationship between the US and China, let�s make a simplified analogy. Say, two persons who have different background, do not know each other very much and have to come under the same roof. One of them is rich and strong (that will be the US), and another is relatively poor and less strong (that will be China). What do you think their likely attitudes toward each other? Normally, the poorer and weaker would adore, respect, or even envy the rich and strong if he were not bullied over. He will try to avoid any conflict as he can. He would try to follow the foot steps of the adorable to make himself adorable. Very naturally, he would try to be a friend. Even he may have a history with the other one and show some pride and stubbornness, he would still want to be a friend psychologically. That is exactly the attitude of China toward the US now. That why you have been seeing a lot of concepts and ideas similar to those in the US become more popular in China from life style to business management, etc. Certainly the political arena acts differently. Then the relation between these two guys is really depends on the attitude of the big guy. Therefore, the key of friendship between China and the US lies in the hands of the US.

However, the US is not in the position ready to take China as a friend now. Why? Many reasons, some are historical and misunderstanding; some are just ego. I will not talk about the ego part. Let me just otter some thoughts on the unnecessary misconception and distrust.

1). The remaining pain from the forgotten Karen War. It is especially true to the US. It was the first time that US did not win a war in pure military regard while facing a far more inferior force in terms of weaponry. The pain is deep and fundamental. The forgotten war is actually unforgettable. It makes the US always realize that China is there and could be a potential enemy. Even though, they don�t feel any imminent threat from it. On the other hand, China will more likely take that war with easy. Why? It was this war that really built up the confidence of China as a country just stood up from the ashes of WWII and from over 100 years� humiliation, although China was actually dragged into that war. It benefited China from many aspects in the following years. It is not difficult to understand that a beneficiary will more easily put the war behind it and move forward.

2). Ideology difference or incompatibility of the two political systems. Still the odds is in the hands of US. You see lots of criticism in the States about China�s almost every aspect of political life, such as human right, dictatorship, anti-democracy, anti-freedom � you name it. The political image of China has been painted totally negative. It is simply the dark side of the world to many Americans. As a matter of fact, there are still lots sunny sides. Otherwise, it won�t be able to stand there for more than fifty years. It got to have some reasons for its existence. On the other hands, if you search all Chinese media, you normally don�t find any fundamental criticism toward the US political system nowadays. That tells you the overall attitude of China towards the political system of the US. It is a meta language telling your that �we accept your ideology, at least we don�t against it.� You may find a lot of introspection type of criticism, instead. I depicted two different mindsets here. One says: �I am the best. If you are not the same as me, you are bad, you are the evil.� The other one says: �I am not perfect, but I am going to improve.� China now is quite open to all different ideologies, ideas, thought, concepts, more than ever. The history of our human civilization is merely several thousand years. It just like a blink of eye comparing to the age of human race, not even mention to the age of the earth. How dare dose one assume any political system will be the ultimate system for all the human beings just right now. Who knows which system will finally evolve into a perfect one? The evolution of any political or value system should be allowed to move on naturally. Probably, all the value system will finally come to the same destination no matter where it started. So, we really need to take the ideological issue with some easy. But interaction between different value/political system is definitively a plus. If the US really wants to affect the evolvement of China�s political system, it should change the overall unfriendly attitude, try to become a friend first. Would you take an advice from a foe or a friend? It is very obvious. Engagement is the right policy not containment. To me, the US dose have the best political system in human history so far, but now is move toward a wrong direction. China�s political system is inferior but moving toward a right direction now, even though the pace is slow.

Talking about war, if the motivation for the US to engage in a war is to spread or protect democracy. Let me tell you what is the most powerful weapon in the US arsenal: DEMOCRACY, real democracy. Not embargo, not containment, definitely not war. What makes the US the #1 country on this planet in last 100 years? An open society, democracy and the ability of introspection. After the collapse of the former Soviet Union, as the only super power, the US once had the chance to become the great leader who leads the human being to the next level of civilization. The United States is the only country that had that ability and qualified to assume the great responsibility of leadership. If the US will not take that, who will? But 911 changed all the political landscape. It is a tragedy in terms of loss of lives. But it was also a chance for the US to unite more countries under the its leadership. Unfortunately, it was not handled in the best way. Now, you all know the results. Do you think the US will be able to take the great responsibility of leadership now? It is still possible, but will be extremely difficult. That is a huge loss to the US, to the world, to every one. If you ask me whether we have won the war against terrorism, I will tell you that we loss. We loss big time. We loss strategically. The handful terrorist just reset the direction of US democracy, depleted almost all the political resources that was accumulated in the past 60 years by the United States, and retarded the progress of human civilization. So you tell me, who is the winner, who is the loser.

It seems I am wandering from the subject. I am just trying to say that war is always the worst solution. We had enough war in the last century. We do NOT need any more. We should have learned our lessons. We should be smart enough and wise enough to prevent that from happening. You know what? In this universe, if we feel lonely, we should cherish each others. If we don�t feel lonely, we should love each others.

Sorry for the lengthy message. Thank you for your time.

Sunflower,

It was off-topic, yes, but that was an awesome post.

I think war is absolutely not the way to go. Whoever wins will suffer consequences similar to as if they lost. In other words, it's a lose-lose situation.

I liked how you described what China and the U.S. think. We in America do have that sort of superiority complex and we see only the bad in China, when in reality, they want to be like us, maybe better than us. But because the U.S. is that dream country, it all really depends on the U.S. You are 100% correct on that. The country that has more is the X-factor.

Again, I personally think the U.S. and China will never go to war. If it ever does, it won't be an official war, just a few skirmishes while the U.S. fight North Korea or something. Other than that, the U.S. and China will learn to co-exist as rivals rather than enemies.

But the war is hypothetical. Back to the subject.

Hawkssss, I'm a Chinese too. In here, you must understand different cultures, different nationlism.
I dont think we should tell the whole world that Chinese people've standed up. That's Mao and chicom's hoax. Hundreds yrs ago,what happended? So big empire was invaded by eight western countries including Japan. In History, we do have a great past. But, we must know there r so many different countries.
We dont have to prove anything. look US, 40 yrs ago, they already sent a guy to space, even landed on the moon. American is a great nation, why they have so much big power? So advanced tech? Why not think about this? That's the person, that's the culture. If chicom dose not stop hoax, we will never be another USA.
Nothing to be proud now, we should study silently, like Japan, and someday, use the truth to prove that China's a real superpower.

US vs Chicom, not US vs China.

That's a great nation which was hijacked by communism. Like nazi Germany

Originally posted by DarkSide

Originally posted by pATTONME
it is a fact that now the American military is stronger then every single country on earth combined. we spend more on it because obviously we have more enemies.

You really believe that don't you? hahahahah

you think you can destroy the whole worlds army because you have F-18's and F-22's...lol

your having a hard time with iraki rebels with outdated weapons from the soviet era and you think you can stand up against the world?

Check my post again. Read it real carefully. I didn't say the US could take on the whole world. I said it was stronger than every other developed nations combined. And if you haven't noticed we aren't trying nearlly as hard as we could in Iraq. You think the Irish Military could do much better.

Now let's just calm down, okay(that includes me).

Originally posted by TrueLies
Is it true baby girls are thrown on to the streets in China because the parents wished it was a boy instead?

Is it also true that you have to ask your government permission to have a child??

I saw on the news that boys get kidnapped for that reason.

Originally posted by pATTONME
it is a fact that now the American military is stronger then every single country on earth combined. we spend more on it because obviously we have more enemies.

A true soldier never underestimates his/her enemy. While I admit that the US has the strongest single military. There are other countries notably Russia and PRC that can provide a stiff challenge. That is why the United States needs to increase R&D budgets for newer techologies, and increase techonlogical leakage thorough spies or otherwise.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
lame comments im saying facts there is nothing funny about denying your enemy resources and food if we had a blockade of china and destroyed their agricultural farms how are they going to feed 1.5 billion people this is not a stupid comment.

Starving people to death takes a long time, and it is also inhumane. There must be a better solution. We need to increase our defenses particularly the Missle Defense Shield. While i have my reservations on such a system, one successful hit out of 10 is still better than none. With such a shield the enemy will manufacture countermeasures, but we should not live with the mentality that such a system can win a war. We must keep working hard. I applaud President Bush increasing funding for the project.

Originally posted by Illmatic67

And China has an above average Navy. With most of our troops over seas, they can easily invade the Eastern coast of the United States uncontested.

Dont you think we will see a sea invasion coming? I mean come on this is ridiculous. If we see an invasion force we stop them with missles. Simple efficient.

Originally posted by TACHYON

Starving people to death takes a long time, and it is also inhumane. There must be a better solution. We need to increase our defenses particularly the Missle Defense Shield. While i have my reservations on such a system, one successful hit out of 10 is still better than none. With such a shield the
enemy will manufacture countermeasures, but we should not live with the mentality that such a system can win a war. We must keep working hard. I applaud President Bush increasing funding for the project.

Not really it will take that long especially when you have 1.5 billion people trying to eat also inhumane? This is war what do you expect also I would rather wait a year or two as long as it takes for the whole population to starve to death then rush in and risking our GI's its better them than me I always say

Originally posted by Illmatic67 And China has an above average Navy. With most of our troops over seas, they can easily invade the Eastern coast of the United States uncontested.

East Coast?? Try the pacific. Above average navy? What exactly are you basing that on? Taiwan has a better navy and China lacks the phibs to invade even that island. France has an above average navy. GB too, China on the other had has alot of ex Soviet era cast offs, no carriers, and very few subs. Nuff said

a sea invasion by the chinese is pretty far fetched, but i could see china becomeing a new USSR, just from the technology stolen from the US

they surely have the man power, somewhere i heard that in 2020 the chinese population will be 10 men to 1 woman, taht leaves many men left without a cause in life, something to take advantage of

@FredT, Westpoint and the like

Why don't you spend some time and go through some informative websites before you say things. China's Navy is much bigger and stronger and more advanced than Taiwan's Navy. Ok! Here is a photo of 3 new Aegis equivalent DDGs and one stelath FFG completed recently AT THE SAME TIME. also posted is link so you can LEARN THE TRUTH.
www.network54.com...
www.sinodefence.com...
www.sinodefence.com...

I do not intend to boast about Navy because our navy is tiny compared with that of the US Navy, which is bigger than the rest of the world's navies combined. I am simply trying to point out we are not as backward as some of you, who don't care even to learn the basics, think.

Cheers

Originally posted by Hawkssss


We simply don't have the capability to attack another well-armed nation now.
Thanks

but you threaten tiawan with invasion knowing that the US will hit china if china hits tiawan? whats wit that?

CrazyIvan,

It is not that simple. Taiwan is a part of China and will always be. Do you know the official name of Taiwan is the Republic of China and they to this day still claim to be the rightful government of all of China, including Mongolia as well as the Spratley Islands and the DiaoYu Island? I bet you didn't. See this is an internal issue of China's just like Chechenia is an internal issue for Russia.

Plus, do you think the US will risk MAD for Taiwan's sake and China will risk MAD also? No, I don't think either government is that stupid. It is simply a political game.