A new crusade against Muslims is upon us

Originally posted by E_T

You should read little history about what this civilised/christian western world has done before condemning others.

I expected someone to throw in the "what christians did" arguement, and trust me I know all about it.
I was not talking about the history though, I was talking about what happens today in our world. I was talking about what I see and read about the Islam now.

It's a little bit easy to keep on repeating the "what christians did in history" story, when what these so called christians did had nothing to do with christianity at all.
People do the most horrible things in the name of their God, this goes for all religions. I'm not talking about the extreme exceptions though.
I am talking about comparing the Bible to the Koran, comparing Jesus to Mohammed.

The Islam is the religion of hate, revenge and fear, where Christianity is the religion of love, grace and hope.
They are opposites in a way, even though they have a lot in common.

as ive said in many other posts, the world will be a better place once all religion is dead.

Nah, people do the most horrible things, with or without religion.

We don't only go after Islamic Terrorists. We caught Timothy McVeigh, tried him and put him underground where he belongs. And he was "one of our own". I've not heard any news story where they said "Some terrorists blew up a daycare facility, but they weren't Al-Quaeda so screw it, we're gonna let it ride!".

They don't need reasons to hate us, they just do. Putting them on the couch isn't going to give either them or us any insight into why. They don't want to talk, they want to kill us. The non-violent muslims who decry the actions of the jihadists at low volume from a non-aggressive standpoint just aren't figuring into the picture because they aren't doing anything to change it.

I saw a post likening this to the Southern whites who did nothing during segregation, even if they opposed it. First, I must admit I will get prickly heat if I don't say that all racism against blacks was/is not isolated to the South and this is an unfortunate stereotype. It was just not as obvious. But that's another thread!

I think what might happen is the same thing as people standing by watching someone beat another person. (not cops, again, different thread). They might not agree with it. Might feel it's wrong. But it's been my experience that hate is much more active and aggressive while goodness and love are more passive. 20 decent people will watch as something happens and not act because they either fear the perpetrators or they feel they have no authority to stop it. Those committing the inhumane acts inspire fear and feel perfectly authorized and not only within their rights to do these things, but duty bound to do them. So perhaps the peaceful Muslims don't take action because, like many of us, they're scared to death of these nuts. And when we see them on tv with the lululululu stuff and burning flags and whatnot, we have to keep in mind that they only have what they're told to go on, and most don't have access to the internet or a free press. So you spend your entire lifetime under Saddam being fed only the kind of information he wants you to hear, and that's what you have to go on. They don't have 20 news channels and 100 papers to do comparative analysis with. So you get suicide bombers who are young, some were only children during the Gulf War and so THAT'S what they grew up on, and they're more than willing to take out the Western White Devils. The older ones know better, but why give up a chance to win your cause when you have such ready and willing cannon fodder at your disposal with the flaming youth lining up for their bomb belts? Bottom line: We didn't make them cut anyone's head off or blow up any airplanes. They did it on their own. They made the decision. Their brothers and sisters in religion support them with their (near) silence.

I'm going to ask a question, even though I fear the answer...

A good number of you have stated that what's happening to the Muslims with the war on terrorism is all their fault, that the United States is basically defending itself, and that there is absolutely no need to try to understand the root cause of terrorism, we just have to eradicate the terrorists...

If that's so... are you ready to exterminate them all to the last? Because there's a chance that the U.S.'s actions may create more terrorists, and more, and more...

As I say... I'm just asking this for the sake of discussion. We have to try to identify what we want the end result of the war on terrorism to be.

All terrorist should be eliminated in short order. The U.S needs to take a lesson from Israel and do what they have done the last year to protect their country from the nuts blowing up busses and such. Take no prisoners. I dont want to start debating the conflict over there because quite frankly I dont think either side in that conflict are without dishonor, however Israel is turning back the tide of terrorism from their hardline stance against it which is what the U.S. should do.

Once a terrorist, always a terrorist, it's that simple. If someone is a terrorist they should be eliminated. I dont believe in the death penality so by eliminate I mean Kill them dead because I dont consider them to be human at all which if they were like say a killer then I would say lock them up forever.

And I suppose by then the Muslims (or what's left of them) will be happily waving little American flags while the ruins are still smoking behind them?

What I mean is, have we even considered the possibility that some people become terrorists because they feel they have been unjustly treated by the ruling powers in this world? Or should Palestinians just have cheered and waved and smiled for the camera as the Israelis took their land?

I agree that Israel took the land from them that became the State of Israel but the land had to come from some place, oh well get over it. I am not pro Israel. Like I said both sides have problems that they need to work out.

There are many Muslims that are regular people. Over one billion. They are not terrorist. I think they dont protest enough against terrorism to show the world how they really feel about it.

All this other stuff you are saying like the Christians are out to kill all Muslims to me is the view from a person that has perhaps seen too much hate against her religion in her lifetime and it's unfortunate.

Actually, I'm not thinking about a Christian crusade, but rather a war on terrorism that ends up mixing up terrorists and regular Muslims, or condemning the faith itself. If you look at some other threads, it's already started - people are explaining terrorism by the Qu'ran and the roots of Islam itself. That's why I'm concerned that there's no easy end to this - uprooting the existing networks of terrorism means killing a number of innocent bystanders or invading countries who don't wish us to be there - hence creating more terrorists. The danger of things getting out of control is there.

And the more people in the West condemn Muslims in general - as has been done a number of times on this board - the more Muslims will say "see, they're out to destroy us!" and respond accordingly. Hence, a spiral of hate... and it doesn't matter anymore who started it. All that matters is who is going to end it and how.

And I guess I should change my ava... you called me a "her" when I'm a "him"

No hard feelings... I have no grudge against anyone here, nor do I want this to become a mudpit. I just think it's an important discussion to have.

Sorry about the ava.. thing my bad.

By you saying what you just did, it lets me understand much better where your thoughts are. What you just stated makes perfect sense IMO but it is something that has no answer that will appear anytime soon, next ten or twenty years or so maybe but I dont think so, maybe thirty if were lucky.

We will not see an end to this mess in our lifetime. Things will get a lot worse before it gets better. That is just the way it will be IMO and there is nothing we can do to stop it if something doesn't happen soon like this supposed God that I dont believe in stepping in to say enough is enough.

Enough babbling on my end I've got to go.

Originally posted by Otts
Actually, I'm not thinking about a Christian crusade, but rather a war on terrorism that ends up mixing up terrorists and regular Muslims,

What constitutes being a regular Moslem versus just being a terrorist? If they support terrorism without engaging in it, or vociferously protest against outside indiscretions while remaining deafeningly silent on the atrocities commited by their brethren, are they somehow absolved of culpability?

All religions are equally false, insofar as they steadfastly maintain the existence and supremacy of unproven deities. But all are not equally destructive. With Christianity, its subdued role in the world is what, I believe, has relieved it of much of its past nature of violence. Religion takes up a small place in most Western Christians' lives.

Islam has seen a rebirth of violence. All religions are defined by their traditions, past and continuing, as much as by their dogma, and the two are interwoven in virtually every single one. Islam is rooted in violence; about this there can be no logical debate. The only reason why it existed from Spain to India is because of campaigns of war. The "Islam is peace" crowd is simply a modern group of apologists influenced by contemporary Western ideology who seek to sanitize their faith and make it more acceptable to Western powers. Citing a few peaceful lines in the Koran does not make the violent ones disappear.

When it comes to the term jihad I think Mr. Walid Pharis can say it better than I can.

Don't Pervert History: Jihad is Jihad

Certainly all Moslems aren't murderous terrorists. But what the hell is so profound about that? All Germans in WWII were not Nazis, and the Soviets weren't ALL murderous bastards throughout their reign of terror. But far too many are/were. And there is too much complacency on the part of Moslems today. If Moslems don't want to be molded into the same group as terrorists, it is up to them to distance themselves from the terrorists: no one else can do that for them.

I may be a little ignorant on this issue, however I would like to know how it's America's fault that the Muslim countries are poor and their people are hungry. What policies have we imposed that keep these people from progressing as a society? These countries are thousands of years older then us and they still practice public beheadings in Saudi.

I think they should stop blaming the US and Israel for all their problems and start taking responsibility for themselves. Sure Israel decided to occupy Palestine land; they should have taken over Palestine completely as the spoils of the 6 day war.

India is in that region and they don't seem so backwards. I think we should give the US props for being smart about our imperialism, we're not trying to occupy every country we're just putting our bases in strategic locations to keep our edge.

Do I agree with the War in Iraq? NO, we made a mistake based on bad intelligence and we are thankfully trying to get that hell out of there and leave that country with a government in which people actually have rights.


[edit on 25-6-2004 by adamhum]

I would be perfectly willing to wipe out all terrorists to the last man they have. Not just Islamic Fundamentalists... ALL terrorists. All nationalities. Every last one.

Originally posted by torque
I would be perfectly willing to wipe out all terrorists to the last man they have. Not just Islamic Fundamentalists... ALL terrorists. All nationalities. Every last one.

Every extreme fanatic in short.

I agree with much of what adamhum says. However I dont agree that the war in Iraq was a mistake. The most prominent reason for the war, WMD's, have not been found yet. This is true. But - Removal of Saddam has been US policy for 15 years. It had to be done.
At the end of Gulf War 1 saddam agreed to terms in a treaty to end the war. Those terms were paid for in American and coalation blood. Then as soon as the troops were home he started to waffle.
At any point in time he could have taken steps to prove to the international community that his quest for WMDs was over. He did not. He created the atmosphere of distrust and uncertainty that led to the war.
That atmosphere of uncertainty, related to Saddam and WMD's is now gone. I think we can be pretty sure that Saddam will never possess a nuke now.

Originally posted by Otts
If you look at some other threads, it's already started - people are explaining terrorism by the Qu'ran and the roots of Islam itself.

Well......duh. They're explaining why the Islamic extremists are using their religion as an excuse to commit atrocities. The extremists are the ones taking the root of Islam and twisting it, not those who expose it.

Leveller - you've just said it yourself... they're TWISTING the roots of Islam. And I have no problem admitting that. I just feel that some people are way too eager to say "Well, Islam was a bad religion to start with, just look at how evil and violent their Holy Book is, these Muslims are all at best misguided people and at worst potential terrorists."

I think that's the kind of attitude that could lead us into a bloodbath. So again I ask... are we willing to militarily occupy all of the Middle East till we have - not governments that the people want - but governments that the US wants? Because that's the only way, in my honest opinion, to win this war if we're not willing to dialogue with the Muslims and re-evaluate in earnest Western policy in that region.

And again... I'm not prescribing a session of self-flagellation by the United States. I'm just saying LOOK at the consistency or lack thereof of U.S. policy in the Middle East, and try to recognize that it can be improved.

I'm not sure how one can say a Religion isn't violent if the writtings at the core of it are.

Originally posted by Otts
again I ask... are we willing to militarily occupy all of the Middle East till we have - not governments that the people want - but governments that the US wants?

There isn't a single "government that the people want" in the whole of the Middle East apart from Israel. Every single country there is a dictatorship.
If the extremists win, democracy will fall even further back.
I don't see how you can argue that the US is impeding democracy when there is none to begin with in the first place.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
I'm not sure how one can say a Religion isn't violent if the writtings at the core of it are.

The writings partly consist of history and since mankind has been violent through history, the writings also have this element in them.
The bible is not one big set of examples or rules, it has a lot of objective historical parts in it, that were included to keep a record of mankinds struggle with eachother and with God, as an informative diary that helps us to see things in context and learn from mistakes.