A new crusade against Muslims is upon us

I know, there's already a whole slew of topics about Islam out there. And this is why I'm adding this one. Because a good number of posts in those threads scare me as hell, and I've even seen discussions about this begin on boards elsewhere which don't have anything to do with conspiracies or religion.

The thing is, I'm becoming more and more convinced that this war on terrorism is becoming a Western crusade against Islam and Muslims in general. More and more, there are people going through the Qu'ran looking for proof that Islam itself as a faith leads Muslims to kill and massacre. More and more, there are people stating that *all* Muslims are misguided people who follow a religion which clearly orders them to violence and war. People are less and less hesitant to cast the widest possible net and say that ALL Muslims are misguided/murderers/evil/going to hell.

My question is... how did this happen? Yes, it's quite obvious that the executions of Nick Berg, Paul Johnson and Kim Sun Il have something to do with it.

However...

- The major networks in the West don't show the aftermath of the U.S. stoming Fallujah or Israel going into Palestinian territory with tanks. We don't see that many Iraqi or Palestinian widows crying over the body of their husband, or bloodied corpses. And if we are shown these corpses... the networks more often than not imply that they were terrorists. Hence... the "enemy" is dehumanized.

- The major networks prefer showing Muslims burning US flags or waving weapons to the camera... peaceful Muslims don't guarantee high ratings for CNN. Hence the "enemy" is devilized.

- I believe that President Bush, by saying that this was a black and white situation in which people are "either with us or against us", has provided a fertile ground where it is easy to cast America and its allies on one side and the whole of the Middle East on the other side. With that philosophy becoming widespread, our ability to be measured and reasonable in our judgments is becoming very, very limited.

Put yourself in the shoes of a Muslim. Someone of your faith has committed a horrible act against the United States a few years ago. Because of that, if you live in the US, people look at you funny on the street, and when you get on a bus, you feel people are scared of you because they think you may have a bomb on you. When you try to exit or enter the country, you risk missing your plane, because they take so much time verifying who you are and asking what's your business in the US.

Now put yourself in the shoes of an Iraqi. You've been profiled for a decade by Americans because of who your leader is. You've been bombed twice because of that leader, and even if Americans say they're coming to liberate you, they just arrested your neighbor and held him for a week because he might be a terrorist. And now, because you're sick of it, because you want your country back and you've said the Americans should leave, you're under surveillance because they wonder if you too might be a terrorist.

Now put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian. You just want your life back, originally you were all for peace with Israel but then your child got killed when the Israeli army stormed your settlement because they thought there were terrorists there. You're angry, and you want revenge, so you pick up stones and throw them at the soldiers. A few days later, as you're in jail, you hear that once more the Americans are asking the Palestinians to stop their violence and praising Israel for defending itself.

Wouldn't you be frustrated?

I'm not giving these examples to say that our own Western leaders are evil and our motives are evil. I'm just saying that neither side has the monopoly of righteousness, and that truth is often not black and white - it's in shades of grey.

Which is why it scares me so much when I see positions radicalizing themselves to the point where for some people, ALL Muslims are now evil.

You know where this could lead? To concentration camps...

[edit on 23-6-2004 by Otts]

There is no crusade against Muslims. How could it have happened, if it were the case, you asked? You've been asleep for quite some time, haven't you? You missed the regular skyjackings, as they came to be known, where TWA was renamed "Travelling With Arabs", the Iran hostage scene, the bombings across the world, including the German disco bombing that helped Kaddafi earn the attention of Reagan, the first WTC bombing, embassies being bombed, the USS Cole, and 2001. As far as beheadings such as Nick Burg and those who have followed since, beheadings are nothing new in the Arab world for Christians, Sudan, Algeria, Indonesia, Hindus find it quite unpleasant for themselves in Kashmir.......
If there were such a thing as another Crusade, it would be brought upon them by their own. Kind of like the 2nd Great Jihad brought upon the last Crusade, huh?

I haven't been asleep, I know about the hijackings and all the rest that's going on. I also know that we can't blame the entire Muslim faith or the entire Middle Eastern population for that. I also know that we as Westerners have shown an incredible lack of self-examination as to whether there's a REASON for which these people hate us. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't... but we haven't even tried to find out. Which is really unfortunate... because I don't think there'll be an end to terrorism until we find its root causes.

Again, I'm not saying we should absolve the terrorists and their actions. Far from it. What I'm saying is that responding by condemning the entire Muslim faith or the entire Middle Eastern population, without even trying to UNDERSTAND them, is unacceptable if we want to hold the moral high ground in this.

A short thought example from a recent post in another thread:

Not all Germans were Nazis. However, the Nazis dragged Germany into the biggest war in history. No one will deny that, right?

Not all Muslims are fanatical terrorists. We know that. But like the Nazis did with the Germans, the Islamic fanatics are dragging the rest of Islam into it. These Fanatics claim to speak for all Islam and Allah. Just like Germans were too scared to oppose the Nazis, peaceful Islam is too scared to oppose the Fanatics. Because peaceful Muslims refuse to actually oppose those who (some say) have warped their Religion, they are going to wind up walking the same road into ruin that the German people did.

Crusade? Isn't that basically what a Jihad is? Sounds like the Crusade has already begun and Islamics (excuse me: radical Islamic elements then) are the ones who have declaired it.

Absolutely the islamic religion is being persecuted in the war on terror. That is the nature of how many of us think. Broad associations are an unfortunate basis for the train of thought of not only the uninformed public, but of our leaders.

The real crusade here is about oil, but certainly religion is being played up considerably by many on both sides of this particular fight.

[edit on 23-6-2004 by heelstone]

[edit on 23-6-2004 by heelstone]

Well, the jihad has been thrust upon the West since at least 670 AD when the moslems attacked the Byzantine Empire, and in 711 when they stormed into Spain. Make no mistakes, this has been a 1300 year conflict which has ebbed and flowed between Islamic Imperialism/Western Self-Defense and Western counterattacks and Islamic retreat. The jihad was thrust upon the United States when she was just a teenager in North Africa and has flared up again in the post WWII environment.

You asked the question, I gave you the obvious answer, to which you say you are aware. You then attempt to blame us, demand that we conduct a deeper self-examination (presumably, you are demanding we conduct a self-examination until we can rationalize the cowardly murders of civilians as being our fault), and then try and understand those who are trying to kill us (all done while the enemy is killing us).

Nobody is blaming all the Muslims. I suspect you are creating that illusion of a problem so that you can then attempt to blame this created imaginary problem on those who you feel are the root of all evil in the world- America.

I'm not buying it. If you'd like to sit down and conduct a self-eval, do it. I highly suggest you do. You want to go over to the Middle East and start hugging them? Go ahead. Paul Johnson adopted the culture and everything, and as you can tell, it didn't get him ahead (pardon the pun). So, while you are analysing your convoluted thoughts as Westerners sometimes feel the need to do, they have no inhibitions about ruthlessly killing you as they are not restrained and slowed downed by such mental excercises.

Thanks to the mods for moving this thread... it's far better in the War Against Terrorism forum

As I said, it's not about whether some Muslims have been committing terrorist actions over the past years. They have. But if we want to keep the moral high ground and continue to claim that we make no mistake in our dealings with these people (because this is what is transpiring lately... "it's all their fault, we did nothing wrong"), if we want to keep saying that we are the reasonable ones, we should at least concede that we are very much at risk of condemning over a billion of the world's inhabitants for the acts of a fraction of that billion.

We support this corrupt, fanatical Saudi government, who dictators live in luxury while the people suffer 30% unemployment and are suprised when the people attack us? We created these terrorists, not Islam. Islam is just a tool some people use to focus the hatred towards us. But it is easier for our government to blame Islam, than the dictators we help, like Hussein, too keep the focus off our governments own misdeeds.

I know what you are saying, it is an old mantra. You aren't, by chance, an actor out in Hollywood, are you?

This is not from something we've done, this is something they are doing. If you'd like to flog yourself, if you feel some kind of guilt and want to punish yourself, go right ahead. But none of those people that have been intentionally sought out and killed, whether it be the soldier killed in the Disco a couple of decades ago, the passengers aboard any of the downed planes (Let's also include Lockerbie. The religion of peace has been so busy the last couple of decades, its very easy to leave examples out), or the latest in publicized beheadings (Notice, I say publicized, as the beheading of Christians is not new at all, fairly commonplace, but it doesn't grab the attention of the Christian-hating media) deserved what happened to them, their loved ones did not deserve to have them slaughtered.

While you are asking for all this self-evaluation to take place here, why do we not see any over there? Gee, so many of you pee all over yourselves when some prisoners are humiliated (not tortured or abused, as I received owrse than that in basic training.), but I am deafened by the silence of the 1 billion Muslims you claim the violent few do not represent. Gee, you'd think at least a vocal couple million would be marching in the streets, protesting the murders of innocent people. I guess they aren't that way, huh? I guess they are either types not to get involved, or they are types to take heads and drop planes, but they adon't dilly-dally in between those extremes.

Nobody is blaming all the Muslims. I suspect you are creating that illusion of a problem so that you can then attempt to blame this created imaginary problem on those who you feel are the root of all evil in the world- America.

I'm not buying it. If you'd like to sit down and conduct a self-eval, do it. I highly suggest you do. You want to go over to the Middle East and start hugging them? Go ahead. Paul Johnson adopted the culture and everything, and as you can tell, it didn't get him ahead (pardon the pun). So, while you are analysing your convoluted thoughts as Westerners sometimes feel the need to do, they have no inhibitions about ruthlessly killing you as they are not restrained and slowed downed by such mental excercises.

Good to see some people can think still.

But honestly, one of the most frustrating thoughts, in my mind, is the "majority" attitude. By this I mean apologists who spout out phrases such as "The majority of moslems don't agree with terrorism, or any moral equivalent. But what does that mean? Most could mean 100% minus one person, 80%, 75%, or even 50% plus one person.

Would we honestly be able to say Islam is a peaceful religion, or even just simply one that we can coexist with if 49.999999999% of moslems either supported terrorism or actually engaged in it? what if just one-third felt this way, or 25%? After all, it would only be a minority of moslems, wouldn't it?

What if just 5% supported it worldwide? That would make 40 million terrorists and sympathizers. What if the American (or British, or French, or Spanish) govt. told it's citizens, Well, we let in thousands of moslems last year, but don't worry, the vast majority aren't terrorists.

Based on reaction in the moslem world, or more precisely the lack thereof, with respect to terrorism, I think we can safely say that terrorists and terrorism enjoys much more popular support than most, especially Western pseudo-intellectuals are willing to recognize.

Otts, you added much more to your original post, and did this after people have responded to the thread. This is not allowed, it is history revisionism. Please, go back, delete all that which was added and place it in another post.

In America, we are more open to Muslims and others of very religious beliefs. But I am becoming more and more frustrated with the followers of "Islam". Not all of them are fanatics, of course not. But the majority do not do anything to try and stop it. You will very rarely here a public statement codemning the atrocities of the madmen who behead people. King Fahd was in America denouncing terrorism; a week later he was back in Saudi blaming the Zionists for the problems. Westerners are in the Middle East, some trying to make a living, some genuinely trying to help the people. And now they are targets. Has there been a public outcry??. Not a one.

Now, back in America. How many Muslims have been brutally mutilated?? How many taxi-drivers have been pulled from their cars and kidnapped, only to have their heads lopped off? Sure, small attacks have happened, but nothing in the scale of whats going on over there. And, everytime there was an attack, there was a public outcry, from both Muslims, and non-Muslims.

Why is it illegal to be Jewish in Kuwait( where the punishment is death for being Jewish)? Why are people being stoned to death in Iran? Why are women sexually mutilated in Sudan? Why are the Muslims blowing up airliners? The only answer I can come up with, is that they are either scared, or fanatical.. Islam, a peaceful religion? No way. They are living in the West in relative peace with non-Muslims. At the same time, they are at home, praising terrorist groups that are killing their fellow citizens in the country that is hosting them, sening money to charitable causes, that end up in the hands of the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah.

I couldnt agree more with your posts Thomas. Why is it that we have the problem? Maybe these terrorists are the problem. We aren't singling out a religion, terrorists are using religion to justify the killing of so called "infidels". You can complaing all you want about Bush or our foreign policy but hey if you want to find out why these terrorist hate us, I suggest you go to Iraq and ask Al-Zarqawi yourself, problem is you will prolly come back to America without your head. Good luck on your self-evaluations, I myself will be supporting the slaughter of terrorists. I don't want to understand why they hate us, I just want them slaughtered like the animals they are.

This is what his church say : the world have to become roman or we will all go to hell.
Also W. saw God, when he was a drunk, that gave him a mission against Islam and he knew what to do that 9/11.
Most people of his administration are of the same church (or sect).

Of course, this can't be true and is a hoax, non roman, but W. still say that with the whole white house.

Those who don't know or see that are sleeping and should talk to their agressive dog instead of speaking of nothing they know.

Don't you know Prescott Bush, the grand father, was the Banker of hitler and made so much money with him and people of concentration camps that were working in his firm of weapons in east europ that W. hold now (IBM was their, and don't talk me about computers in 1940, I know some of U are really not informed)...



[edit on 23/6/2004 by Alchy]

a crusade? lol are you serious? if that was so i think america would kill every muslim who dont convert, i dont recall anyone forcing a religion on them or forcing them into camps or any such thing as a crusade would be defined as.

Alchy, I have read your post and several others you have made that say almost exactly the same thing. Ya, I know. Hitler's banker. Bush Church. Romans and such. Yeah Yeah, you said that already.

[edit added] There are plenty of Bush hater threads full of people who will be more than happy to hear anything bad you wish to say about our President. That is not what this topic is about.

Please stay on topic. [edit end]

Here is the response I feel your post deserves:



[edit on 23-6-2004 by Ambient Sound]

Originally posted by namehere
a crusade? lol are you serious? if that was so i think america would kill every muslim who dont convert, i dont recall anyone forcing a religion on them or forcing them into camps or any such thing as a crusade would be defined as.

Anyone else find it curious how moslems and western apologists have tried to repackage the word "jihad" to make it sound more pleasant (although incorrect), yet when Bush used the term "crusade" a few years ago these same people had a sh&%fit.

Bush would just make a global war in mid east able, just like nowaday... So it will kill Israel too!
Go to palestinia Jews, go, go ,go...

Originally posted by

[edit on 23-6-2004 by namehere]