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A new crusade against Muslims is upon us

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posted on Jun, 23 2004 @ 11:43 PM
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why arent muslims who feel that these terrorist acts are wrong actively denouncing them? i see this question asked many times is different shapes and form. i believe there are sporadic statements voicing disgust and condemnation by muslims of these terrorist acts but maybe its not enough in the eyes of some.

could it be akin to having a member of your family, a younger brother perhaps who has gone astray and has committed murder? the entire family is completely devastated that one of their own has commited such a heinous crime and all members firmly believe that the act goes against their moral and religious beliefs. but would the entire family go out in the streets to publicly denounce the acts of their family member, i dont know?

could it be that culturally, middle-easterners/asians do not share the same vociferous/outspoken nature as their western counterparts. i am not saying that all middle easterners are passive/timid but if youve gone to college with some international students from these countries youd probably know what i mean. so i guess thats probably why were not seeing massive street protests and such goin on.

just my take.




posted on Jun, 23 2004 @ 11:56 PM
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I'm not sure about the "timid nature" applies to middle eastern Muslim societes, as opposed perhaps to mor ein the Far East, like Indonesia or India.

When they think there is an affront, they protest vigorously and vociferously.

To a large measure the issue in the Arab countries is that in fact many people agree and admire Bin Laden. They may disagree with their tactics when his fanatics blow up other Muslims (as recently happened in Saudi Arabia). At that point there was a substantial amount of debate and denouncement. But atrocities against Westerners really aren't seriously denounced because a large enough minority or majority thinks that it's OK or justified. They have such a chip on their shoulder that they've lost their moral sense, IMHO.

Notice how quickly the terrorists changed to targeted assassinations and kidnappings of Westerners from car bombs. They were doing what they always did for months, and for years---until they ran into some very serious opposition in Saudi Arabia. They really are sensitive to public opinion---in their home countries.



posted on Jun, 24 2004 @ 12:10 AM
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a crusade againts muslims?

yes.

a crusade against jews?

yes.

a crusade against christians?

yes.

the truth is...everyone hates each other and everybody is trying to screw everyone else over. theres just no way around it.


to me, religion and politics never should have gotten intertwined....



posted on Jun, 24 2004 @ 12:11 AM
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Originally posted by agent
why arent muslims who feel that these terrorist acts are wrong actively denouncing them?


Umm, have you looked? Or are you waiting for Fox to show it to you? CAIR If your curious, ask the people you are curious about. Every country has a webpage nowadays. Check the forums where Muslims hang out. If you are waiting for the evening news or your local paper to tell you, you may be in for a long wait.



posted on Jun, 24 2004 @ 12:25 AM
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Originally posted by curme

Originally posted by agent
why arent muslims who feel that these terrorist acts are wrong actively denouncing them?


Umm, have you looked? Or are you waiting for Fox to show it to you? CAIR


Well, I CARED for CAIR (haha nice pun eh?!?!?!) and found this nifty article asking EXACTLY what agent was looking for...enjoy!


CAIR-KY: True Muslims Reject Violence And Terror

The American Muslims in Kentucky want to state clearly that those who commit acts of terror, murder and cruelty in the name of Islam are not only destroying innocent lives but also betraying the values of the faith they claim to represent.


more...



posted on Jun, 24 2004 @ 12:39 AM
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Originally posted by curme
Things aren't so simple when you sit down and try to solve them, which so many posters are not trying to do. It's hard work.


Quite right. That is the entire point I was was trying to make and the purpose of that short thought excercise you were nice enough to participate in.

Damn right it's hard work. These are not simple problems and there are no simple solutions. Any solution requires change and comprimise on both sides. I believe that the West can approach this from the attitude of wanting to solve the problem. I hope Islam can but I haven't seen much indication of this except for Libya of all places.

Who would have thought Qadaffi (sp?) would turn out to be the wise one? Libya gets to avoid all this conflict now. No one has occupied it or enslaved it. There has been no change of leadership there and we don't need to plan for one as long as they stay to the wiser path of peace they have chosen. Libya, while not exactly our friend in no longer exactly an enemy either, so the odds are really good that we will just leave em alone and they didn't have to fire a shot to make that happen either. I'm not quite sure we can trust them but I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt if only to encourage more reasonable behavior.



posted on Jun, 24 2004 @ 12:46 AM
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why arent muslims who feel that these terrorist acts are wrong actively denouncing them?


i did not imply that there is absolutely nothing being done or said. personally, i know that people are speaking out but i see this question asked many times-over and over again. i just feel that more could be done by muslims opposed to these kind of acts to educate and spread the word to the rest of the world in ways hopefully which they will understand and accept as being as adequate response.

sure you cant please everyone but less people asking this question would mean more people understanding the true nature of islam and muslims in particular, dont you think?



posted on Jun, 24 2004 @ 12:48 AM
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i dont understand what you're asking, agent. i just sent the link because it was ironic how its the exact same thing. i know you meant no offense, but neither did i. i was just having a jaunty chuckle



posted on Jun, 24 2004 @ 12:53 AM
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I didn't mean to be so curt agent. I just hear that question asked so many times by those who don't ask it as intelligently as you do, that I may of came off as sounding rude without pausing to see your context.



posted on Jun, 24 2004 @ 12:55 AM
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no offense taken scat. all i wanted to say was that there are still quite a majority that feel nothing "concrete" is being done/said by true muslims and was just offering my views thats all



posted on Jun, 24 2004 @ 12:57 AM
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i agree agent. but you have to remember, theres also a majority that doesnt care how many musllims denounce the acts...theyre still not going to listen.

the tables can always be turned against us, until eventually the legs are sticking up and no one has a place to put their plate.



posted on Jun, 24 2004 @ 01:07 AM
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The truth is hate and ignorance seem to dictate the rumours and thoughts of too many people these day. Deny ignorance, especially when you are!!!
When Americains, British, and the rest of Europe were murdering and enslaving hundreds of millions Blacks, Natives, Asians around the world not so many years ago, they used a strange form of Christainity and mason ocult type of nonesence to kept the people from rebeling from the inhumanity of it all. Now we are reminded that the crusades maybe never have stopped, one against the other, hate breeds fear, anger, WAR!!! The religions have little to do with it when the bodies start adding up to mass murder numbers like those of the recent WTC incident. But are truely dwarfed by thoses most have not heard of. Try looking what America has done to these people before you say they are without reasons. Although I think they are cowards and should be hunted down to the last one, but the number of dead innocent always dwarfs the number of those actually fighting the war, usually a number that would make most sick. We all know those truely responsible for these events will probably never really be know or ever be found. But I am sure many more innocent children will be killed blindly by the machine of WAR, and give the truely evil ones thier chance and reasons to make lot of money (OIL)!!! So maybe killing for revenge is truely for the IMATURE in this world, including those with the most reasons for seeking revenge. IF WE AS A RACE ARE GOING TO SURVIVE WE MUST STOP THIS CHILDISH ATTEMPS TO FIND VENGENCE IN MASS GRAVES OF MOSTLY INNOCENT BYSTANDERS!!!



posted on Jun, 24 2004 @ 05:46 AM
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Originally posted by Otts
The major networks in the West don't show the aftermath of the U.S. stoming Fallujah or Israel going into Palestinian territory with tanks. We don't see that many Iraqi or Palestinian widows crying over the body of their husband, or bloodied corpses.


Just which news are you watching? It's shown all the time. What you don't see are the dead Israeli children or the dead Westerners in Saudi Arabia or their families.


The major networks prefer showing Muslims burning US flags or waving weapons to the camera... peaceful Muslims don't guarantee high ratings for CNN. Hence the "enemy" is devilized.


When you've got a crowd of a thousand people, armed to the teeth, burning your flag and chanting "Death to the West", I'd say that they don't need demonising. Do you suggest that this sort of act isn't shown? If so, you're a hypocrite to your first point.


I believe that President Bush, by saying that this was a black and white situation in which people are "either with us or against us"


That's your opinion. Personally, I believe that what he was saying is that we are sick and tired of terrorist actions being carried out by Islamic extremists.


Put yourself in the shoes of a Muslim. Someone of your faith has committed a horrible act against the United States a few years ago. Because of that, if you live in the US, people look at you funny on the street, and when you get on a bus, you feel people are scared of you because they think you may have a bomb on you. When you try to exit or enter the country, you risk missing your plane, because they take so much time verifying who you are and asking what's your business in the US.


Put yourself in the shoes of a Christian in the Middle East. People looking at you funny? Yeah. They look at you funny then shoot you and drag your dead body behind a car. And you're complaining about a little bit of inconvenience. Wake up to reality. You can't even practice your faith if you go to Saudi Arabia.


Now put yourself in the shoes of an Iraqi. You've been profiled for a decade by Americans because of who your leader is. You've been bombed twice because of that leader, and even if Americans say they're coming to liberate you, they just arrested your neighbor and held him for a week because he might be a terrorist. And now, because you're sick of it, because you want your country back and you've said the Americans should leave, you're under surveillance because they wonder if you too might be a terrorist.


This statement just shows no regard for world history or fact. The "bombed twice" sentence is peurile. It takes no regard of the invasion of Kuwait. It also disregards the fact that the majority (and yes, that's a fact whether you like it or not) of Iraqis want the US to remain in Iraq to maintain stability.


Now put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian. You just want your life back, originally you were all for peace with Israel but then your child got killed when the Israeli army stormed your settlement because they thought there were terrorists there.


Originally "all for peace". Again, a total disregard for historical fact. The Palestinians have never taken the olive branch offered to them. Their stated aim is the destruction of the nation state of Israel.


Wouldn't you be frustrated?


Only frustrated at stupid posts like yours, which display a breathtaking ignorance. It's this sort of ignorance that creates divisions.




You know where this could lead? To concentration camps...


Not for the Muslims. It's a hope of mine that we'll see the ignorant interned though - don't forget to pack your toothbrush.


[edit on 24-6-2004 by Leveller]



posted on Jun, 24 2004 @ 06:31 AM
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Agreed leveller,

I sure wouldn't want to live in a country where muslims have the last word over stuff. All countries ran by muslims have either retarded laws, or a mentally ill administration, often both.
Countries ran by christians on the other hand, are generally the best places to be. (USA)

One must realize that there is one essential difference between the Christian religion and the Islamic religion. In christianity the rule of "treating others like you want to be treated" overrides all other rules, making Christianity a rather peacefull and unprovokable religion.
The Islamic religion is not like this at all, their most important prophet achieved most of his goals by fighting and killing, setting the example for its followers, not even mentioning raping children.



posted on Jun, 24 2004 @ 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by Jakko
Agreed leveller,

I sure wouldn't want to live in a country where muslims have the last word over stuff. All countries ran by muslims have either retarded laws, or a mentally ill administration, often both.
Countries ran by christians on the other hand, are generally the best places to be. (USA)



I don't necessarily agree with you there. Some African Christian nations are hellholes too. There are also one or two Muslim nations out there who do pretty well for themselves.

I don't believe that it's a question of Christianity versus Islam. The priority should be helping Islam fight extremist Islam. Extemist Islam is way more of a threat to it's own mother religion than it is to Christianity.
The statement that Christianity is crusading against Islam is extremely ignorant. The fact is that for many years, Christianity coexisted peacefully alongside Islam - it's only recently that this more militant form has reared it's ugly head. The fact is that extremist Islam cannot and will not live side by side with anyone - moderate Islam has proven that it can.



posted on Jun, 24 2004 @ 11:36 AM
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There are always exceptions of course, but the average was what I was talking about. And I know it's not a matter of religion vs religion.
I just tried to compare these two religions to eachother, and it just seems that even when I try to be objective, I must come to the conclusion that Islam is the religion of fear and hate, where Christianity is the religion of love and grace.



posted on Jun, 24 2004 @ 11:53 AM
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CAIR is not everything you think it is. Nihad Awad, their Executive Director, for example, is a supporter of Hamas. CAIR pays lip service to the public, but is actually strongly anti-Western.

I became aware of CAIR from someone on ATS who referred their website to me. Their name actually sounds like it belongs to an organization that strives to work as a voice for the average Islam voice. I was initially impressed and signed up for their newsletter. After less than two weeks, I unsubscribed to the newsletter, because it was constantly full of anti-American rhetoric. It was almost like reading al Jazeera. I unsubscribed because I didn't want to be associated with a site that could very easily be considered subversive.




posted on Jun, 24 2004 @ 11:55 AM
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Stellar anolgy !!!!!!!!! Great insight. .......my .02 Bush in not pulling a Neville Chamberlaine (Hitler was supossedly quoted as stating Chamberlaine made "all this possible" in 1940)



Originally posted by Ambient Sound
A short thought example from a recent post in another thread:

Not all Germans were Nazis. However, the Nazis dragged Germany into the biggest war in history. No one will deny that, right?

Not all Muslims are fanatical terrorists. We know that. But like the Nazis did with the Germans, the Islamic fanatics are dragging the rest of Islam into it. These Fanatics claim to speak for all Islam and Allah. Just like Germans were too scared to oppose the Nazis, peaceful Islam is too scared to oppose the Fanatics. Because peaceful Muslims refuse to actually oppose those who (some say) have warped their Religion, they are going to wind up walking the same road into ruin that the German people did.

Crusade? Isn't that basically what a Jihad is? Sounds like the Crusade has already begun and Islamics (excuse me: radical Islamic elements then) are the ones who have declaired it.


E_T

posted on Jun, 24 2004 @ 12:14 PM
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Originally posted by Jakko
One must realize that there is one essential difference between the Christian religion and the Islamic religion. In christianity the rule of "treating others like you want to be treated" overrides all other rul

You should read little history about what this civilised/christian western world has done before condemning others.
In dark medieval age catholic church tortured and killed peoples (because they didn't agree to do what told) and supressed science because it would have taken away church's power. Then somehow this civiliced western world started using slaves... slaughtered native americans....

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

It's all about power... actions of catholic church in dark mediaval age...
And it's not just about religions, governments of communistic countries based their power to deceit, lies, just everything which helped them to stay in power. (and still do that today)
Or think about Stalin... or Hitler.
It's same with those behind terrorism and all extreme movements, they want more power/everyone under their rule and ideology. They just use and distort everything for their benefit.

Governments use same method for staying/getting more power, deceit, lies, wrong information.. when you repeat those enough there's always those who will start keeping them as absolute thruth.
Fear and religion are just one of the best ways to control people.
Also who controls food will have much power. (now compare that to fact some multinational corporations are developing plants whose seeds doesn't sprout)



www.guardian.co.uk...



posted on Jun, 24 2004 @ 12:44 PM
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The third muslim crusade started in 1979, with the Iranian revolution.

The recent period until 1979 was an abnormality, starting in the early 1800's when Napoleon conquered Egypt, shocking the formerly powerful Ottomans how weak and impotent they were. They were further conquered in WW1, and reborn thanks to the secularizing Ataturk.

The rest of the Arabs didn't have an Ataturk, and they need one.



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