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Why Aliens don't land? Its religion of course.

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posted on Oct, 3 2010 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by SaturnFX
 


Oh I am sorry I didn't realize, I had strayed off topic, considering the other post.

sorry



I fully understand how easy it is to go off topic here. its been done tons of times, even by myself repeatedly. Eventually I catch myself and attempt to bring it sort of back in the direction..no offense and certainly no need to apologise...the topic in general is a fascinating one that stirs alot of opinions.




posted on Oct, 3 2010 @ 02:26 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 



You are saying that the logical failure I am experiencing is due to the fact that speculation about religion and speculation of ETs existing or coming here to earth..the subject in general, both are little more than fantasy that merit equal consideration.


No. I wouldn't label them as fantasy. I would label them as possibilities with varying degrees of plausibility. Labeling them fantasy denotes that I have made a decision either way as to the factuality on the matter. As I said earlier, I believe aliens are here and studying us as we would study other animals. But neither will I go so far as to call it a fact. I guess you could say I believe it very plausible and perhaps likely.


First off, the issue of religion is that it is supernatural or paranormal in its nature. the ET/Alien subject is not...there is absolutely nothing about the concept that is supernatural in nature. It falls into the same area as a new breed of fish at the bottom of the ocean...it is testable.


Religion is not necessarily supernatural.

re·li·gion noun ri-ˈli-jən
Definition of RELIGION
1a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
— re·li·gion·less adjective

Examples of RELIGION
Many people turn to religion for comfort in a time of crisis.
There are many religions, such as Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism.
Shinto is a religion that is unique to Japan.
Hockey is a religion in Canada.
Politics are a religion to him.
Where I live, high school football is religion.
Food is religion in this house.
Origin of RELIGION
Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back — more at rely
First Known Use: 13th century
Related to RELIGION
Synonyms: credo, creed, cult, faith, persuasion
Antonyms: atheism, godlessness

Merriam-Webster
I underlined the pertinent information.

And neither is the ET/Alien subject testible at this time, otherwise the issue would be settled. Especially if they do not wish their existance to be proven at this time.


Organizations have popped up to test this theory, such as SETI, that are actively seeking out signals of alien origin. Hubble spends plenty of time looking at planets to determine if it is habitable and able to house if not already houseing life.
NASA has sent out probes such as Pioneer 10 to broadcast our own signals specifically to alien races, to include a starmap, pictorial of what we look like, etc.


Does not necessarily mean that aliens exist. My personal opinion is that it's a no-brainer and of course there is life out there but, I do acknowledge that is my opinion and really a fallacious argument though.


Is there a government funded equal in regards to any religion whatsoever to determine and test the god theory? no...there isn't, because as much posturing as government officals do, they know that they cannot prove a negative also in these regards...there is simply no satisfactory way to test for God because it is paranormal in nature...aka, no test will ever work because such a being is undetectable by tests...therefore the hypothesis itself is without merit...it is not science..science requires you to be able to test, measure, observe it.


Perhaps because the concept of a "god" is a untestable hypothesis? But untestable does not necessarily mean the hypothesis is false. ETs on Earth is at current a untestable hypothesis. Lights in the sky and stories of abduction and etc are not testable proof. To use your own criteria. And it is well documented that eye witness testimony is unreliable.


Aliens - testable (if a bit time consuming)
Deitys - untestible


Neither are truly testiable at this moment in time. Especially if, say, either or both exist, didn't wanted to be proven to exist.


There is no logical fallicy I am committing beyond being a bit presumptious as to how the tests will eventually turn out...in a way, one could see that as faith, I simply view it as a statistical certainty.,,the dice are loaded and we got a trillion trillion chances to roll snake eyes.


Yes you are. I am sorry you cannot see it. But you are. As I have pointed out to you with all the information I have provided you. It very much is faith. No matter what semantic spin you put upon it my friend. Here, allow me to show you:

1faith noun ˈfāth
plural faithsˈfāths, sometimes ˈfāthz
Definition of FAITH
1a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion

b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust


3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction;

especially : a system of religious beliefs
— on faith
: without question
Examples of FAITH
His supporters have accepted his claims with blind faith.
Our faith in the government has been badly shaken by the recent scandals.
Lending him the money to start his own business was an act of faith.
It requires a giant leap of faith for us to believe that she is telling the truth.
Nothing is more important to her than her faith in God.
She says that her faith has given her the courage to deal with this tragedy.
Origin of FAITH
Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust — more at bide
First Known Use: 13th century
Related to FAITH
Synonyms: devotion, piety, religion
Antonyms: atheism, godlessness

Merriam-Webster.com

You are allowing yourself special leeway you are not giving to others. And that is the problem. As I said, you do not get to be right simply because you are you and you believe you are right.


edit on 3-10-2010 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows because: Editorial stuff.



posted on Oct, 3 2010 @ 03:42 PM
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reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
 


I appreciate the constant discussions back and forth, but I think ultimately the point of this thread is being missed.
This is a speculation thread...and to wait for proof before speculating would nullify the whole point of speculation to begin with.


guess: a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence
a hypothesis that has been formed by speculating or conjecturing (usually with little hard evidence); "speculations about the outcome of the election"; "he dismissed it as mere conjecture"
an investment that is very risky but could yield great profits; "he knew the stock was a speculation when he bought it"
meditation: continuous and profound contemplation or musing on a subject or series of subjects of a deep or abstruse nature; "the habit of meditation is the basis for all real knowledge"


Now, in the speculation presented, I have attempted to use the most reasonable conclusions based on what evidence there is presented.
I rely heavily on things such as the drake equasion:


The Drake equation states that:


where:

N = the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which communication might be possible;
and

R* = the average rate of star formation per year in our galaxy
fp = the fraction of those stars that have planets
ne = the average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets
fℓ = the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop life at some point
fi = the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop intelligent life
fc = the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space
L = the length of time such civilizations release detectable signals into space.[3]
(wiki)

and other such hypothesis out there that support life elsewhere....
Once you get past the argument that like probably does exist out there, and some of that life has advanced, and some of that advanced life has started colonization...well, what could be done over billions of years is the next step. all it would take is for a single planet since the birth of this galaxy to start moving around and planting itself here and there and this entire speculation becomes a simple fact that has yet to be fully uncovered.

just one instance in billions of years...thats it...those odds are pretty stacked in the favor of ET being all over the place. Personally I agree with the original author in that if it turns out to not be true, the only reasonable explanation would then fall onto a deity

an example of this is, if I dig 3 feet into the earth, I would bet my house that I will strike more dirt, or something equal in nature...if the only other side of the argument was after 3 feet of digging, I will uncover a magical portal to Narnia. This is pretty much where the argument is at in regards to space...either there are extraterrestrials, which the chances favor highly, or there is no life elsewhere, which would be so improbable that only a deity could be responsible and indeed we are a magical species.

This entire thread is moving past the fully magical thinking to speculate on likelyhood and reason. I fail to see how I am in error about speculation and hypothesis based on that.


and finally, do you have any opinion on the actual subject you would care to share, it seems for the most part, your opinions are more on how I am forming the speculation verses the actual speculation...like dealing with a english teacher in a philosophy class.




posted on Oct, 3 2010 @ 05:26 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 


The Drake Equation is all well and good but it does not prove anything. Statistics deal in possibilities not factualities. Otherwise a coin tossed 100 times would as a rule produce 50 heads results and 50 tails results. Which mostly does not happen.

Ah but it is directly relevant. You are proposing that an unproven type of entities will not appear til the idea of another type of unproven entities is no longer taken seriously by anyone or at least the institutions dedicated to them are wiped out. I have been merely pointing out the flaws in the argument as well as the basis that forms it. We went into what you are arguing as a tangent together with you leading and me responding. If you wish to end this discussion that is fine, but don't pretend it is my fault. It smacks of certain tactics taken by those who view such debates as a win loss scenario and whom is smart enough to know when the facts are stacking against them.



posted on Oct, 3 2010 @ 05:48 PM
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reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
 


True, both are unproven, and the basis of the argument is that to make one appear, the other must disappear. I guess there is a bit of irony in the context overall.
So, yes...lets call it for what it is, a belief...I believe that ETs are real and deitys are not. I have spent lots of time explaining why I believe that, but ultimately it does come right down to a belief.

I also see those whom have a different belief to be people whom somehow have not weighed the various equasions in as I did. I have trouble understanding their belief system.

I also believe in black holes, tachyons, and am inclined to believe much of string theory..all of which are simple theories that, to me, make sense and have evidence that would enforce my belief system...however, all of it may not be true at the end of the day...I would be suprised however if it did pan out to be untrue.

So there ya have it. I want to believe in ETs and with that, a set of theories pop up based on reasonable arguments...the core of which is arguably a unreasonable premise due to no solid proof.

still failing to see how the whole thread is illogical considering its speculative



posted on Oct, 3 2010 @ 06:51 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 


Please excuse me but if it's speculative and your belief then why do you speak in statements of fact? Through out the OP and up until recent?

And incidentally, why must they be friendly or hostile? You did not cover the fact that they could be neutral.



posted on Oct, 3 2010 @ 07:54 PM
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Originally posted by AnthraAndromda

Originally posted by amari

What if she or the UN sells out mankind and gives the go ahead to exterminate 5 billion humans or enslave the world population. What if she or the UN gives the go ahead to aliens to eat as many humans as they wish. What if she gives the go ahead to evacuate millions of people off this planet to be taken to God knows where. You may laugh but these are serious concerns for mankind. You may say this will never happen but can you guarantee it will never happen. Aliens will have far advanced technology and will want to control everything just like Cortez did when he invaded the Aztecs in Mexico. You may say the aliens will not harm us and will let humans exist and live their lives as usual. I say dream on.


I don't think you are giving due credit to ET. There is much to said about the idea that if ET wanted to exterminate some or all of Human life, or enslave you, it would have already have happened. As it hasn't; it seems clear that ET has no such intention. Also, ET doesn't eat Humans, while all space faring species are or rather were preditors, there are few, if any, species that roam the galaxy in search of food, there are far better ways.

There is currently no need of evacuating any of you to anywhere, yet, what if there is that "perfect" solar storm? Would you want to stay here?

You are right, these are serious concerns, yet, the answers to many of them are right in front of you, all you need do is recognize this face.

Comparing us to the likes of Cortez is an insult! None of us are quite that backward. Most of us have evolved for hundreds to thousands of years beyond Human kind. The likes of Cortez would be considered a criminal in virtually any space faring society.

You may think that ET has motives and intent to cause harm to Earth and Humans; You are wrong! While not all ET's are the most friendly towards aliens such ah Humans, very few would seek to cause harm. With the array of different ET species and their respective governments, I don't think you will have any trouble finding a "good fit". You may still have cause for concern over the Humans you allow to run your governments, but, that is your problem, and you cannot blame ET for that.

You place your trust in total strangers every minute of every day, the only difference is that they are the same species as you. Trusting in ET to do the right thing is no different, we are at least as civilized as you.

As for the U.N. or other Terrestrial governments; you really have little choice. ET has already been talking with the UN anf the G20. Preliminary agreements have already been struck, and it is likely way too late for you to hold planetary elections on who you will have as negociators. The general feel I am getting from both Humans and my people is that disclosure is less than a year away.

Etharzi od Oma,
Anthra



There are good aliens and bad aliens the problem is the U.S. negotiated with the bad aliens. ET does not eat humans? I do not know that. Comparing Cortez as an invader like the ETs, I do and yes there will be a tremendous technology and a mental capacity gap hundreds to thousands of years beyond Human kind. The likes of Cortez would be considered a criminal in virtually any space faring society, dream on. In many circles Cortez was considered a hero in Europe and you are considering all aliens are nice little fuzzy beings that will do no harm? Let me set the record straight I do not in any way condone what Cortez did to the Aztec civilization. What makes you think the ETs are not running and controlling the show from underground and in space anyway? I understand many humans, but I do not trust Ets because they have a different mind set and agenda good or bad. Of course the aliens have been in communications with governments and the UN I mentioned that. Yes We have a choice are you saying surrender and our voice does not matter at all. Let me correct you it is never ever to late to have elections on any issue. Disclosure has already been made in many circles or have you missed it. ^Y^


edit on 3-10-2010 by amari because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 3 2010 @ 09:38 PM
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Originally posted by amari

There are good aliens and bad aliens the problem is the U.S. negotiated with the bad aliens.


Quite true, there are good and bad people throughout the Universe,

Actually, Terrestrial governments, including the U.S., has negotiated with several ET factions; good, bad, and indifferent. Ultimately, it is in everyone's best interest to look at all sides. And, thinking that "bad" ET's are going to harm Earth or Humans is purely speculation at this time. From what I know of the Zetan Empire ("bad guys"), they don't actually intend to harm anyone; they do however, desire to use Human's agressiveness to their own ends.



ET does not eat humans? I do not know that.


Why, would you think that ET is here to "eat" Humans? Ya know, I'm sure that there are species out there that would eat a Human, but, you don't need to leave Earth to find one.



Comparing Cortez as an invader like the ETs, I do and yes there will be a tremendous technology and a mental capacity gap hundreds to thousands of years beyond Human kind. The likes of Cortez would be considered a criminal in virtually any space faring society, dream on. In many circles Cortez was considered a hero in Europe and you are considering all aliens are nice little fuzzy beings that will do no harm? Let me set the record straight I do not in any way condone what Cortez did to the Aztec civilization.


Not all ETs are invaders, nore are all of us conquerers. Infact, many species and societies view those that are as primatives, a step or two below you. I'm not sure if I've Said this here before or not. But, if ET wanted to invade Earth, they would have already done so. The fact that we are respecting the wishes of your gevernments regarding contact, should be suffecient proof.

What Cortez did to the Aztecs has not happened to you.



What makes you think the ETs are not running and controlling the show from underground and in space anyway? I understand many humans, but I do not trust Ets because they have a different mind set and agenda good or bad. Of course the aliens have been in communications with governments and the UN I mentioned that. Yes We have a choice are you saying surrender and our voice does not matter at all. Let me correct you it is never ever to late to have elections on any issue. Disclosure has already been made in many circles or have you missed it.


No, I'm not saying "surrender", but, with the efforts you are making currently, or should I say the lack of effort, it amounts to nearly the same, its effect will certainly be the same. The reason your voice makes no matter is because you aren't speaking loud enough, and there are not enough voices.

Given that none of us knows when disclosure is going to happen, how would propose to organize and execute elections on a global basis before it does? Don't misunderstand, I think it is the right thing to do, but, I am saying there simply may not be enough time.

It is important that when ET does land that the people of Earth be "semi" ready. It is important that all of you demand transparancy now. Otherwise you may not get what is the most beneficial for Earth.

Etharzi od Oma
Anthra



posted on Oct, 4 2010 @ 02:38 AM
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Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by SaturnFX
 


Please excuse me but if it's speculative and your belief then why do you speak in statements of fact? Through out the OP and up until recent?

In regards to what..I went through the first page and seen nothing I was presenting as absolute fact..not sure what your talking about


And incidentally, why must they be friendly or hostile? You did not cover the fact that they could be neutral.

On the first page, I did reference neutral actions and how they are likely to be beneviolent or neutral..

ultimately, I see friendly as ones that come here and not eat our brains or whatnot...aka, neutral would be good enough. I dont mind swiss aliens.



posted on Oct, 4 2010 @ 10:06 AM
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I don't think it's religion, though it may be a part of it. I think it is due to the other topic that is never does any good to debate with people about - politics.

Any beings with the technology to do what UFOs do must be very smart indeed. They understand the ways of men and can predict very accurately how they will react in certain circumstances. One of the things they realize is this - if they ever take a stand on any particular issue, or communicate openly with any particular government, or pretty much say anything at all - a lot pf people are going to be up in arms about and it is going to cause a great deal of conflict - possibly violent conflict.

For a case in point, let's look at Global Warming/Climate Change. Certain people have come forth and presented objective, scientific data, BUT - no matter WHAT they present there are people who don't LIKE what they have to say, so they are going to disagree with it, or say that there is some ulterior motive or come up with some reason to cause derision about it. The entire UFO issue is similar. People are going to believe what they want to believe no matter what the proof/evidence.

What do you think Russia and China and other countries would think and DO if a super advanced race landed on the White House lawn? They would sense an immediate HUGE threat that perhaps the USA would gain some immense technological advantage and act to deal with that threat.

I think that these beings are smart enough to know that the best thing to do is not take a stand on, or communicate about ANYTHING, at least openly. If they do then a lot of people are going to get pretty riled up about no matter WHAT they say. Can't you see that?



posted on Oct, 4 2010 @ 10:45 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Oct, 4 2010 @ 11:40 AM
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reply to post by atomic_space
 


You apparently "catched" a so called Shadow Being, or Shadow Person, congratulations.


However, nobody seems to know exactly what they are, and guesses goes everything from Ghosts or Timetravellers to Interdimensional beings. Personally I don't believe them to be ghosts at all, as the descriptions and encounters about them makes them seem too "alive", or maybe I should say Conscius. They are often described as being seen lurking and "peeping" on people, and when confronted, they have been described as looking startled and then quickly disappear.

But that is another subject, so again; Congratulations!






posted on Oct, 4 2010 @ 12:47 PM
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as with any "living" planetary environment throughout the cosmos, earth has its own special abundant resources.
which most are still inobvious to us to this day, and most likely will continue to be indefinitely. but that does not mean that "some" alien expeditionary race of being isn't capitalizing on these unknown resources, or even known resources. and it also doesn't mean that "some" human interaction between these alien expeditionary races of beings have ever taken place or continues to take place to this very day.

the probability that everything that i have just mentioned is "most likely" fact. and just because the rest of the world isnt in the loop of knowledge, doesnt mean that it isnt so. it just means that you would have to have a need to know. and be a part of the loop of specially selected people in that loop that need to know.

but what i will say is that whether by accident or by purpose, all these facts will be brought to light within "most" of our current life times, as we pass through the coming years and speculations. its inevitable. technology and the watchful curious eyes have matured to the point that the hidden can no longer hide ,and in most cases be documented.

if a crash were to occur today, someone with a cell phone could photograph in realtime instantaneously the details, precisely to the millisecond, before any governmental agency could stop them.

this is why it has become an inevitable factor that disclosure and enlightenment will occur. technology and curiosity is our champion.

an alien reality cannot mingle with an earthly reality, because we are from different realities, therefore it could cause disastrous implications and results, as within the jewish scriptures as it was written. they know this and "some" of us know this. but that still doesn't mean that even this hasn't or still isn't going on to this day.
it just means that were are unaware of it, and most definitely for good reason. otherwise they would just land and the cat would totally be out of the bag.

but i will say that religion has nothing to do with it, other than keeping the earthly human race focused here on earth and our earthly task at hand, called obedience.


edit on 4-10-2010 by aliengenes because: edit

edit on 4-10-2010 by aliengenes because: add



posted on Oct, 4 2010 @ 01:35 PM
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I believe that human's are aggressive and will destroy things they don't like and percieve as wrong, which is true, VERY true, which is probably why ET hasent landed, we would eventually learn there technology, because we are stupidly adaptive to everything, and probably would become conquerors. (as in, join the supposed bad guys)


Human's are not exactly "good" people.
edit on 4-10-2010 by Daecollo because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 4 2010 @ 01:40 PM
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You are entitled to your own opinion that if aliens did "Exist" this is a reasoning behind it... However you are making it out to be factual and people need to know that this is only your opinion!

How do you know this is the reasoning behind aliens not making official contact?

Why do you assume and what has lead to this assumption?

Until it happens we will never know and until that day comes I remain "Skeptical" about Aliens & UFOs



posted on Oct, 4 2010 @ 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by insubordinate
You are entitled to your own opinion that if aliens did "Exist" this is a reasoning behind it... However you are making it out to be factual and people need to know that this is only your opinion!


True, and my opinion on the matter is quite informed and educated, having spent over 30 years studying the matter, reading numerous books, watching hundreds of hours of video, viewing thousands of still photos and seeing UFO's myself.

Please share with us how informed your opinion is and what time and effort has gone into the foundation for that opinion.



posted on Oct, 4 2010 @ 02:49 PM
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Originally posted by TheFlash
I don't think it's religion, though it may be a part of it. I think it is due to the other topic that is never does any good to debate with people about - politics.


Religion and politics well,they've been up and down the memory ,lane hand in hand since history was written...often times we find it hard to recognize which is which...its only very recently that religion was toned down such as church and state separation...islam never did, their koran is their constitution (sharia law), the xtians their bibles and politicians are affililiated to religious congregations who has the "numbers" aka members...
our generation maybe "modernized" up front, and politics seems honorable to some degree, but its religion that makes this world go round...



posted on Oct, 4 2010 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by enkira

Originally posted by TheFlash
I don't think it's religion, though it may be a part of it. I think it is due to the other topic that is never does any good to debate with people about - politics.


Religion and politics well,they've been up and down the memory ,lane hand in hand since history was written...often times we find it hard to recognize which is which...its only very recently that religion was toned down such as church and state separation...islam never did, their koran is their constitution (sharia law), the xtians their bibles and politicians are affililiated to religious congregations who has the "numbers" aka members...
our generation maybe "modernized" up front, and politics seems honorable to some degree, but its religion that makes this world go round...


You make a valid point. Fair enough.



posted on Oct, 4 2010 @ 03:17 PM
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Originally posted by insubordinate
You are entitled to your own opinion that if aliens did "Exist" this is a reasoning behind it... However you are making it out to be factual and people need to know that this is only your opinion!

How do you know this is the reasoning behind aliens not making official contact?

Why do you assume and what has lead to this assumption?

Until it happens we will never know and until that day comes I remain "Skeptical" about Aliens & UFOs


From the first post, second paragraph


I just finished reading one of my favorite net philosophers and his take on the whole UFO/ET thing. He has put together a fantastic hypothesis that seems the most logical aspect of the why in regards to ETs (why they are here, why they haven't landed on the white house lawn, etc).


a hypothesis by a philosopher...how much more do you need it to scream speculation?

if someone believes this to be the absolute fact being presented at here, well...it wouldn't matter how many times I put in the word "speculation, my thoughts, etc" are...they simply will believe its the truth. But who cares, those types have a bunch of odd beliefs anyhow...probably still hanging stocking over the fireplace on dec. 24th in total expectation that a overweight old guy in red will fill it with candy and toys.


and its good to be skeptical, but be equally skeptical on both ends.



posted on Oct, 4 2010 @ 08:16 PM
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It's plausible that our continuing human superstition/religion is the reason
for their non-disclosure. Though I doubt it would be their only reasoning.

From an alien perspective I think our current state of development would be
HIGHLY interesting, and as such, one that that would be more worthy of
observation than interference. While they may have some concern that
disclosure would be "less-than-ideal" for our society...

I think they are voyeurs



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