Why Aliens don't land? Its religion of course.

Originally posted by Nicorette

I say wrong. If they are friendly, and they are visiting, then they are morally culpable for ignoring all the crimes and injustices on this Earth, flying by and not doing a thing about it with their 'superior' technology and understanding.

Just how are we culpable in any way for leaving you to clean up your own mess?

Most advanced civilizations have protocols, laws, etc. that would prevent any reasonable friendly from interfering in the matters of any developing society.

So, basicaly your problems are yours. If you truly want our help, get your governments to do the right thing and disclose.

If its any consolation ... I don't like what I see here on Earth, especially knowing there is nothing I or my people can do.

Etharzi od Oma.

Originally posted by Nicorette
You say:

So, ETs are friendly...they must be friendly because that is the only reasonable conclusion. (I am open to counter arguments that are thoughtful)

I say wrong. If they are friendly, and they are visiting, then they are morally culpable for ignoring all the crimes and injustices on this Earth, flying by and not doing a thing about it with their 'superior' technology and understanding.

It would be more irresponsible to stop teaching moments by a show of force and impose some sort of outside morality on us. We would never learn how to cope with the bitter aspects of killing each other if mom and dad kept coming by and seperating us...what gives them the right to dictate to us how we should come to understandings on our planet...they would be considered the enemy no matter what their intentions..it is our right as a species to learn and grow by our own hand...and if we manage to blow each other up in the process, well, then that simply means a species was unable to overcome their own violent desires...such a species should be allowed to die out for the greater good.

They are as guilty as Clinton and the rest of the world that stood by during the Rwanda genocide. Earth is one big war-torn, crime-ridden den of misery - or hadn't you noticed? Any alien claiming to be enlightened that stood by and did nothing is guilty.

I wonder if somewhere in the jungle, a tribe of monkeys are debating if the humans some claim seeing are good considering we never stop other tribes from making war with them. No doubt if they are, some will be absolutely sure people are, if they exist, evil things because of the apathy we show monkey fighting.

Even we "primitive humans" have Good Samaritan laws. So basically, your ETs are Bad Samaritans, indifferent observers of misery and suffering - and don't give me this Prime Directive nonsense, that was a fictional device from a TV show, not some actual moral principle.

good samaritan "laws"? huh....
go to a inner city and watch the apathy all over the place as illegal and violent things happen with crowds barely even noticing, much less caring. There is no law demanding we have to give a rats arse...
indifferent observers of misery and suffering...sort of like reality tv then if we are to equate it. I guess that makes us bad samaritans by your measuring stick.

Actually, TV shows often rip off ideas they find interesting...I seen a movie with religious themes...therefore religion is a rip off of TV shows by your theory...if it was on TV in a fictional sense, then the whole subject and context must be fiction.

And as for the anti-religious crankery of your atheist philosopher, who cares. Completely irrelevant. What do primitive religions have to do with anything? Never stopped any earthly anthropologist. No reason it should stop some hypothetical ET observer.

Junk philosophy, through and through.

who cares?
clearly you...since you decided to take the time and respond about it overall...I don't care about gay smurfs...which means if there is a thread about it, I wont take the time out of my life to read it, much less spend even a half second responding to it...nice try to minimise the subject matter though, unfortunately it doesn't stand. Religion is the moral obligation for fanatical believers to convert or kill any sentient being whom does not follow the rules of their invisible friend...I think that would give pause to anyone from hanging out with that person.

as far as junk philosophy...well, one person's trash is another person's treasure...I find all religions straight out complete trash...and it confuses me how anyone can possibly think them to be even slightly of value to learn about...but meh, thats just my theory.

thanks for the post, and the bump

reply to post by SaturnFX

Although I am open to the idea that the bible is a discussion and misinterpretation of a alien encounter, I am far less likely to think the opposite for a whole host of reasons that belongs more in a religious debate thread than this.

Then you won't mind if I retort to say, you are far more correct with that heading than you realise Saturn.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Although I am open to the idea that the bible is a discussion and misinterpretation of a alien encounter, I am far less likely to think the opposite for a whole host of reasons that belongs more in a religious debate thread than this.

Then you won't mind if I retort to say, you are far more correct with that heading than you realise Saturn.

Yes, sunday morning eating a biscuit and drinking some watered down wine while token praying to a wooden T counters a massive demonic armada simply laying waste to the land,,.why not.

actually, it could also be they fear pet rocks, and that is why they haven't come to swallow the world into the 9th level of hell...

or maybe its the scientologists with their alien demon ghosts auditing that is keeping the gates of hell closed.


Lets be reasonable here.

When on the subject hostile of what aliens would want from us (assuming they were around), I always thought they could've altered our evolution and kept our planet as one big reality show, or a playground, of sorts.

Imagine them having all sorts of exotic creatures build from genes all across the galaxy at first, but then going "Ah heck, screw it, these ones are no fun anymore" and shaking the etch-a-sketch to throw some more intelligence into the evolution pot. And along comes the homo-sapiens slowly evolving to the cheering of the Big Brother-alien tv-host :p

Yeah I always found the subject kind of silly.

reply to post by SaturnFX


hEh. Religious people say that what they want is what their God wants. Anti-religious UFO cultists say that what they want is what the aliens want. Regardless of which unproven entity *or entities* is evoked it's still funny. Calling upon something which may or may not even exist to advocate the callee's stances. Classic.........

So. In your opinion should those who want to see the ellusive aliens kill the followers of these invisible gods? Wouldn't that be rather like the reason you want religion to go away?

Originally posted by AnthraAndromdaJust how are we culpable in any way for leaving you to clean up your own mess?

Most advanced civilizations have protocols, laws, etc. that would prevent any reasonable friendly from interfering in the matters of any developing society.

So, basicaly [sic] your problems are yours. If you truly want our help, get your governments to do the right thing and disclose.

If its any consolation ... I don't like what I see here on Earth, especially knowing there is nothing I or my people can do.

Etharzi od Oma.

First of all, I don't believe you are an alien. So that message board trickery is kind of meaningless. And second of all, you didn't directly address a single point I made, but rather recast the same predicted objections I made in mildly different language in order to paper over the fact you didn't address them. It's like a government fact finding committee covering up a government atrocity by deliberating not addressing any actual facts; like the Warren Commission report, to bludgeon the analogy to death.

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

So. In your opinion should those who want to see the ellusive aliens kill the followers of these invisible gods?

Wouldn't that be rather like the reason you want religion to go away?

edit on 27-9-2010 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows because: (no reason given)

Umm...no?

In order to have a child stop believing in santa clause...you typically don't kill the child, you reason with the child...sure, they gripe, they fuss, but ultimately after awhile, they start abandoning such silly notions and grow up.

The difference between a "alien nut" and a "religious nut" is simple...a person intellectually interested in the ET hypothesis simply wants to uncover actual hard facts about the phenomona...they will read reports, dismiss hoaxes and unlikely aspects, and streamline to find the truth.
a fundamentalist religious will ignore all facts, dismiss any rational thinking of the subject to preserve the initial storyline.

a ufo nut will look at the universe and think: Wow, this universe is really big, soo many chances of life springing up elsewhere and advancing.

a religious nut will think all of it was created for mankind about 8000 years ago, then popped up a mudman and ribwoman to populate everyone.

I am sorry if you deem both mindsets the same, I guess this perhaps isn't the thread for you.

Originally posted by Nicorette
First of all, I don't believe you are an alien. So that message board trickery is kind of meaningless. And second of all, you didn't directly address a single point I made, but rather recast the same predicted objections I made in mildly different language in order to paper over the fact you didn't address them.

Okay ... It doesn't matter a whit if you believe me or not.

No, I didn't address any of your points because you made none. It is not the responsibility of ET to clean up your mess!

It is plain and simple, you are not children, and we are not your parents. YOU made the mess by not careing enough to insure that your governments were being run correctly, and, now you find yourself in a position where you are controlled to a degree that you don't like, and yet, you actually have no idea the degree of control that is being exerted.

Then you have the temerity to blame ET for not helping? I'm beginning to think I made a childish mistake by asking my people to stay to help, and to think I could have left a couple of years ago.

Again, the problem is yours, you fix it. It is your responsibility to do so. And, you still have the power to do so.

reply to post by Nicorette


Actually, I want to back up Antha here..
If you believe in his claims or not is beside the point...consider our point of view..

When we as humans start space travelling, are we to be held responsible for every backwater planet killing themselves? Will we suddenly become the space version of the UN peacekeepers? We cant even fully account for whats going on not in the world, but even in our own countries...and suddenly we are supposed to try and fix every world we come across that sucks? Thing is, in the US...there are rabid debates going on as to if we are even effecting the climate with our meddlings, much less all of us in agreement that we screwed things up and need help..such actions from a ET (say...one comes down and tells us to stop driving cars) would only produce angry comments and conspiracy theories...

I agree with An...we made this mess, its ours to clean it up..or not...but no ET should feel compelled to save us from ourselves. growing pains of a civilization

reply to post by SaturnFX

Thoughts?
And again, I encourage you to read the article. I just found this guy’s layout absolutely brilliant and have done a (poor) rehash and breakdown of his words.

Saturnfx,

You are the man!! Finally the preparation for contact hypothesis put forth in a very eloquent, logical, and easy to read write-up. If only the author had been at the Press Club on Monday instead of that goofball John Kelly at the Washington Post!

I've always liked the preparation for contact hypothesis and I'll tell you why:

1) It explains the unusual (seemingly silly) behavior of UFOs. It is their way of saying "Now you see me, now you don't earthman. I am a mystery to you. Figure me out."

2) It explains why the aliens haven't kicked our butts. (per the article)

3) It explains why some contactees claim to have had sex with aliens. And why the aliens apparently often look human (human/alien hybrids). They have manufactured "perfect" human clones for the specific purpose of contacting us. The logic is "make contact on their level." What better way to slowly initiate contact than to do it with sexual beings that look like us!

4) It may actually explain certain things like Bigfoot, Poltergeists, and other supernatural things. You see when an alien flies a UFO across our field of vision before vanishing we make the logical connection of 'likely an alien vehicle.' But what conclusions do we draw when we hear a voice and a door shuts for unexplainable reasons? Our human condition tells us it's a ghost! It is our mind and our culture that separate the two phenomena. But from the alien perspective, it might just be another means of them trying to acclimate us to the reality that we are not alone. No different than #1 where you see the UFO performing silly maneuvers. The message is still the same from their perspective: "You are not alone earthman. I am a mystery. Figure me out." Additionally, this is supported by multiple abductees who claim that the aliens have told them "we are not as you see us."

5) It explains why the aliens may not as secretive as we make them out to be. Many experiences report the aliens alluding to some grand plan, but being very silent on the details. They have dropped clues about a certain "time nearing" or a plan being "close to completion." It is the experiencer who assumes that "close to completion" must mean a few years...maybe a few decades. That is their interpretation and you can't blame a human for thinking in such terms seeing as how our lifetimes are usually only around 80 years. For an alien who has been here for thousands or even millions of years, watching, and waiting... another 200-400 years IS CLOSE to completion.

6) It explains why the superpowers of the world (US, Russia, and now perhaps China with the latest UFO incident) are strangely silent on the topic. They already suspect what we are discussing in this thread. They figure that if change comes it will come whether they want it to or not. Until then, they will deny aliens, hold onto their power, and keep society moving along to avoid confusion/panic.

7) It explains their unusual behavior in general!--What do anal probes, magical trips to Venus, crop circles, bigfoot, ICBMs being shutdown, and the whole weirdness surrounding the whole subject matter have in common?? *drumroll please* They are stimuli. They want to see how we respond. The aliens are scientists.

Mystery solved.

Fellow ATS members,

Please S&F this thread!

It is important to present our beliefs to the rest of society in the most logical and easy to follow manner. I believe the article which Saturn linked to is very well written. In fact, I forwarded the link earlier to a coworker who is only mildly interested in UFOs (but knows that I am).

He approached me after work and said "very interesting," and was talking about possible scenarios, implications, etc.

PS- and to the religious folks out there. There is still every reason to believe in God. Just because these beings can do "impossible" things, does not automatically mean there is no universal creator. It is possible to believe in both.

reply to post by SaturnFX


You cannot post anything about aliens trying to sound as if you and your link friend know anything about aliens. Aliens is just a name given to a mythical being alleged to ride in what we have termed UFOs. Yes, UFOs can be discussed but only the "craft" as no one knows anything else. To suppose is just to play mind games. There is no evidence for the reality of alleged aliens and any tales put forward are, so far, just tales. No one can call them extraterrestrial because there is no evidence for such. If you don't know anything about aliens, how can you say that they exist and state where they come from? The only evidence we have is that we are the only beings in the universe. That you can take to the bank. Nothing else has equal value.

Oh this topic never gets old does it?

As soon as i reached the age of reason (seems alot of poeple skipped this part) the certainty in me that higher forms of life existed was filled. Religion to me, is nothing but a thesis, a fairy tale of misconceptions, misinterpreted symbolics and simply a copy of other similar religions.

I have spent my last years reasearching consciousness and its role in the macro and micro universe, and the more i look, meditate, pray, read and learn, the more certain i become that concsiousness is the alphaomega for all existance. in this dimension or in any other.

Its actually pretty simple. If you have any understanding for universal values and how they should be embodied, you should be familiar with the concept of free will. They wont land, simply because this would be a HUGE infgringement on our free will. Do you expect these beings to think in terms of right and wrong? We do, thanks to the duality in our nature. However, i think they do not.

They are watching however, because alot of us at some point made an aware decisions NOT to feed our prejudices and xenophobia. Duality exsist in almost any setting related to our ways of thinking and concepts. The concept of multiple sources of life is a concept that hovers in our counciousness but one that never seems to be taken from the shelf and looked at from all angles. Untill we percieve the chance of ET's solely as a posetive thing, they wont land unless sh*t really hits the fan, i think.

I do hope that disclosure happens soon nonetheless. I know theres alot of poeple sitting on the fence right now.
And this brings up another subject. What are we waiting for!?

What if this disclosurechanneling circus is just another gust of wind that ultimately has made us sitting at home waiting for ET to come with his free energy and promises of a Golden Age?

If there exist good aliens in our realm, the laws of duality would in general tell us that there's a chance they could be negative aliens aswell. And if they are as good as our goverments are at disinformation, i wouldnt trust any channeled information. Except that which ofcourse, rings true in your heart of hearts.

As anything else, these are just words on the internet. Words never suffice Trust only what rings true to you my freinds!

And one more thing; The spiral in norway probably got more coverage in the states than it did in Norway itself. I find this to be a little mindboggling. Sorry for any typo's.

Originally posted by The Shrike
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

You cannot post anything about aliens trying to sound as if you and your link friend know anything about aliens.

Your right, I personally do not know much about aliens...but in saying that, I don't know much about spirits, angels, deitys, and a host of other things..however, I can speculate based on the hypothesis put forward by evidence presented and accounts given, and a bit of logic mixed in. This thread never came off as a factual statement as to why aliens do not land...it is a speculation about the existance of such beings, a likely path of a multi-cultural space and some general darwinism tossed in to extrapolate the progression of race interactions. It may be dead on true, or completely false...but I am willing to believe that the view I posted in the original is closer to the truth than most other senarios, be it a empty universe, or space maurauders.

Aliens is just a name given to a mythical being alleged to ride in what we have termed UFOs.

No, an alien, from the perspective of earth, is a lifeform that comes from a different planet, different evolution. What you are stating is aliens visiting earth. There is alot of evidence to suggest they are, however there is no proof..the discussion is a leap past the final proof moment to speculate about the point behind it all, if indeed it does come to play out that the evidence adds up. It is a logical understanding of just why there is soo much evidence with no proof actually. Mythos has no role in the core discussion.

Yes, UFOs can be discussed but only the "craft"

I wasn't aware that speculation and theories were only allowed for certain aspects of subjects...thank you for addressing this, I will check out the local laws to confirm this however.

as no one knows anything else.

no one "offically" knows anything else. you are making one hell of a sweeping statement. tell me, do you also subscribe to these sweeping statements:
-nobody has ever seen a ghost
-nobody knows anything about black holes
-nobody knows anything about evolution (or creation).
-nobody knows anything about gravity (the effects are proven, but the cause is still theoretical incidently)
etc...

in the world of theories being the core of our understandings, why are some theories accepted to you, and other theories, even when based on logic and probability not acceptable? feels more like a religious statement you are making overall here...but the most damning part of your post was the absolutism of what every human on earth has ever experienced...only a deity could possibly say such a thing.
what you meant to say was "I do not believe anyone knows anything else", or "nobody can prove they know anything else". Words are important here..use them wisely or be torn up from misstatements and religious ideals...unless of course you can prove to me you are a deity, in which case, I will take your sweeping statements of all mankind as absolute fact...but I require alot of proof for that.

To suppose is just to play mind games.

to think unlikely is also just playing mind games..its sort of what us humans do...seperates us from a dog or a turnip. mind games are also known as theories, and all things we have today in science and understanding started as a theory.

There is no evidence for the reality of alleged aliens and any tales put forward are, so far, just tales

There is mountains of evidence...the word your seeking is conclusive proof based off the evidence. unless you have been living in a hole, you are surely aware of alot of evidence just by being a member here.
I think you may want to look up the word evidence.

No one can call them extraterrestrial because there is no evidence for such.

Sorry, who is 'them". you are going from its just UFOs to suddenly a "them"...

you seem confused...what are you stating overall?

The only evidence we have is that we are the only beings in the universe.

by now you are aware of the thread here on ATS where the astrobiologist have said the exoplanet found in the Gliese system has 100% chance of life on it...there goes that evidence.
incidently, here it is Link

enjoy

reply to post by Vampiri


Interesting perspective.

I was considering just that...our human body is mostly just a system of reliance..most parts function only to keep other parts functioning.

I imagine in the (distant?) future, we will progressively trim down the biological aspects of ourselves..from better and smaller lungs, heart, mulitple hearts, etc. perhaps in (x) years, the only thing left of our form will be a small swarm of nanobots keeping a few atoms in conjunction with one another that houses the entire consciousness of our being.
in such a form, we could live on a planet like this, or a gas giant, or in a space void, etc. I then apply that theory onto other super advanced alien civilizations and wonder if our paranormal experiences are actually just advanced life forms that started as we did somewhere and advanced to this superior form of life.

consciousness is the only critical part of our species. I agree...and no doubt as time progresses, we will find different ways to house it. The only consideration is a philosophical...are we even conscious or simply a product of needs

reply to post by SaturnFX


When you apply special exceptions and definitions as you obviously have you are right. Case in point, religion. Belief in a higher power is not necessarily religion. Young Earth Creationism is not necessarily religion. Belief that mankind is somehow super special is not required for belief in a higher power.
Just for an example.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


I tend to corrupt the word religion, this much I know...but basically when I say religion...I mean first and foremost the books that guide many in the world...proper religion, but I also toss in a subset which involves:

Belief supported by no scientific theory
Belief that goes against rational thinking.

Basically, anything that involves a instance of "magic" to me is religion. you cannot have a young earth without magic involved...you cannot have a firm belief that mankind is special without magic being involved, etc.

now, here is where I counter myself...if someone was to discuss the possibility that all this universe stuff is just an elaborate virtual reality chamber, then that is a worthy discussion...then yes, such speculation about hell, a 100 year old "universe" would be fine to discuss in that context...but that is a valid science...one day, perhaps 30 years from now (or 5 million, who knows) we may have such technology and entertainment in our species that spending 80 years in a virtual world without knowledge if it being just a game may be commonplace and indeed this may be a simple product of that game (the world game where you witness the transition from a industrial society to a nanotech immortal society...dawning of the technological age, etc...would be a hit)...but, even that discussion requires a external reality based on reason and rationale...

at best, you can simply suggest this is the matrix..then speculate on the irrational things you would like to believe in regards to this virtual universe...

else it is simply religion (book or no book)

Very interesting. Once again, many of my own personal theories seem to be reiterated in these ideas with one exception. I do not think that religion is innately evil, it has just been exploited by evil human beings. I feel a philosophical movement is in order, which encompasses all forms of religion as well as the new knowledge science has been contributing. We must not abandon faith only because we realize not all that we believed is true. Every new leap of knowledge is essentially a leap of faith.

reply to post by thegoodcause


That is not religion, that is general personal spirituality...I am a fan of personal spirituality.

where I go from a fan to a enemy is when that person then tries to mandate their views as the truth and light, and how others need to adopt it by word or force...

and then demand that they get tax free status when they buy a building to talk about it, etc...

ya, personal spiritual growth and understanding of your place in this universe = good. imposing space magic ghostman on others = bad.