Wally Miller on UA93: wingtip hit, 757 cartwheeled, cockpit broke off, rest buried

So the ground was hard to cause the front third of the plane to snap off and bounce into the woods, but soft enough to allow the majority of the plane to bury itself into the ground. You can't make this stuff up...or could you?

Originally posted by ATH911
Wally Miller gives the official explanation of how he was told Flight 93 allegedly crashed by those in charge at the scene:

Wait, what????.

This makes ZERO sense. How is this the official explanation? He is explaining to a truther how he thinks the plane crashed. Or how someone explained the crash to him. According the NSTB reports and witness statements, he is wrong. ATH911, this is yet another one of your threads created with zero substance.

Have you contacted any of the investigators ATH? Remember about 10, Flight 93 threads ago? I gave you a list of the investigators that were there. Not just the coroners.

Willy Miller was the CORONER. Do you know what a CORONER does?

Once again, try reading these:

NTSB Flight 93 Flight Path Study
www.ntsb.gov...

www.ntsb.gov...

www.ntsb.gov...

Originally posted by ATH911

Originally posted by zarlaan
There are a few commercial airline crashes that were nearly entirely buried in the ground on impact.

News to me.

Link?

Here are a few for starters. Not "entirely buried". Neither was flight 93.

Instead of watching YouTube videos, try reading for a change.

Northwest Airlines Flight 710

Swissair Flight 111

Pacific Southwest Airlines Flight 1771

reply to post by Six Sigma


Northwest Airlines Flight 710

"At 15:25 the the outboard engines and engine support structures, the complete right wing, and the outer portions of the left wing and ailerons separated in flight. The aircraft crashed out of control."

Broke up in mid air - not buried at all.
Reference the accident report and photos here :-
aviation-safety.net...


Swissair Flight 111

"On 2 September 1998 the aircraft used for the flight, registered HB-IWF, crashed into the Atlantic Ocean southwest of Halifax International Airport at the entrance to St. Margarets Bay, Nova Scotia. The crash site was 8 kilometres (5 mi) from shore"

So it crashed into the sea! - Man you do some great research, don'tcha - how desperate are you to believe the bull your fed?

Pacific Southwest Airlines Flight 1771

."The plane impacted a rocky hillside, leaving a crater less than 2 feet deep and 4 feet across, presumably where the landing gear struck the ground"

Hmm, so how much of it dissapeared into this 2 foot deep hole?.

Seems to me your post is a worthless piece of misdirection, and leads me to seriously question your agenda, and to wonder what, exactly, your motives are in trying to perpetuate obvious untruths. Surely this is nothing more than dis-information? Perhaps YOU should try reading, before attempting to propagate it.

In control of what, Sigma? BS?

The case still remains unproven - aircraft fly, they don't tunnel underground.

Originally posted by Six Sigma
Wait, what????.

This makes ZERO sense.

We know the official story doesn't make sense. We truthers have been trying to you guys this for years now. Sheesh.

How is this the official explanation? He is explaining to a truther how he thinks the plane crashed.

Willy Miller was the CORONER. Do you know what a CORONER does?

He was working UNDER the jurisdiction of the FBI. He's telling the truther what HE WAS TOLD BY THE FBI:

"The explanation was..." - Wally Miller, interviewed by Dominick DiMaggio (Sept. 2008)

One of the landowners was told by the FBI too:

- Pennsylvania's Ground Zero
Written by Tim Lambert
"According to investigators, the cockpit of the aircraft separated from the plane upon impact and flew into the trees, where it disintegrated."

Lisa Beamer confirms this story in her book:

"I didn't see a single piece of airplane anywhere... Little could be found. Because of the reclaimed strip mine, the ground was softer than other surrounding areas. The plane had pierced the earth like a spoon in a cup of coffee: the spoon forced the coffee back, and then the coffee immediately closed around the spoon as though nothing had troubled the surface. Anything that remained of Flight 93 was buried deep in the ground."
(Lisa Beamer, Let's Roll!: Ordinary People, Extraordinary Courage, July 2002, p. 231)

According the NSTB reports and witness statements, he is wrong.

Yes we know, because the official story doesn't add up with the staged scene.

Originally posted by ATH911


We know the official story doesn't make sense. We truthers have been trying to you guys this for years now. Sheesh.

How is this the official explanation? He is explaining to a truther how he thinks the plane crashed.

Willy Miller was the CORONER. Do you know what a CORONER does?

He was working UNDER the jurisdiction of the FBI. He's telling the truther what HE WAS TOLD BY THE FBI:

He was working as WHAT Ath? An airplane crash scene investigator? No! He was the coroner. Once again I will ask you, What was his purpose there?

What Mr. Miller is stating is hearsay. And it's wrong. You know it is not in ANY reports that the plane cartwheeled. Have you read the FDR reports? Do they show that what Mr. Miller is saying as accurate? Can you please show me ANY offical report that explains flight 93 cartwheeling?

Have you contact ANY investigators that were there. Oh wait, the two thousand plus people there were all in on it... right?

"The explanation was..." - Wally Miller, interviewed by Dominick DiMaggio (Sept. 2008)

Hearsay.

One of the landowners was told by the FBI too:

- Pennsylvania's Ground Zero
Written by Tim Lambert
"According to investigators, the cockpit of the aircraft separated from the plane upon impact and flew into the trees, where it disintegrated."

Can you please source this? Not the article by Mr. Lambert, the investigators that he spoke with that told them this. Why? Well... you have Tim Lambert reporting that he talked to someone that was told by someone that was told by someone. The FBI was there to rule out that there were any explosive devices on the plane. They completed their investigation on September 25th, ruling out the use of a bomb.

If the FBI explained this to the landlord how the plane crashed, it would have been premature and speculative. At the time of the completion of the FBI's invvestigation, infomation from the black boxes had not yet been retrieved.

Lisa Beamer confirms this story in her book:

Wait... Lisa talks about a spoon intocoffee... Wally talks about a cart wheel... Well... which one is it?

Yes we know, because the official story doesn't add up with the staged scene.

Nice dodge. Was Wally's story to Dominic the same as the "offical story."

The stories we were given are exactly what they wanted! They knew people would buy into it for a while and then get upset over time when they realised they had been conned. The question we should be asking is what they are actually up to and where is it leading.

NO plane was brought down there, the engine was far too small. I can not even imagine what the concept was unless it was to add to the proof that nothing actually happened and it was all a set up!

The demolition of the WTC is fact! it was not by a plane and fire FACT and I also do not believe it was by Thermite. WHY, because if thermite was used there would be a HUGE pile of rubble, when in fact we had a relatively small pile of rubble! So where did the rest of the building go?

WHY was the seismic reading of the collapse so small if the entire building collapsed? the only explanation is that the entire building did NOT fall. A percentage of it did the rest wast literally dustified (turned to microscopic dust).

The planes that hit the WTC if planes did in fact hit, could not have been 767-200 because they were flying at 520 knots and Boeing state that a 767-200 will fall apart at 420 knots at sea level! Also pilots with 23,000 hours flight time were not able to hit the towers in a professional flight sim unless they reduced speed to 124 knots.

So my questions are as follows:

Was the story of 9/11 to allow for massive spending on war and to reduced our freedoms?

Did they use that story to get what they want knowing the people would see through it at some point, so they also created the thermite destruction conspiracy which is far more believable to hide the true nature of the demolition.?

To me everything points to an operation meant to destabilise the United States by getting the people to revolt against the government and the military (Oklahoma, Columbine,Waco, Katrina, 9/11, wars, Gulf of Mexico). That is why they are ensuring nearly all the troops are away at war. You can't have a successful revolution with all the troops as home, you'll get a serious ass kicking.

Be careful about your rush to bring down the evil government, you may very well find yourselves wearing brown shirts and rounding people up you have been manipulated into hating! Only to find that the people now running the country are far worse than the ones you just got rid of.

Look up above what is right in front of your eyes, there is always a lot more to see than you expect!

Originally posted by Icerider
Broke up in mid air - not buried at all.

Civil Aeronautics Board Flight 710 accident report:

The major portion of the aircraft struck the ground at a nearly vertical attitude in a field where the ground sloped to the south. The soil at the point of impact was soft and contained no rocks. Small trees near the point of impact were not struck by the aircraft. Impact forces formed a crater which measured 30 feet across from its top from ast to west and 40 feet from north to south; it was 12 feet deep. Most of that portion of the aircraft which struck the ground forming this crater was buried within it. Only a few fragments of the wreakage were visable in the bottom of the crater........

Originally posted by Icerider

Swissair Flight 111

So it crashed into the sea! - Man you do some great research, don'tcha - how desperate are you to believe the bull your fed?

Swissair flight 111, was an MD-11 that crashed nose-down into the sea at 300 knots in 1998. Most of the wreckage was so fragmented that dredges had to be used to recover it. Did you read that part of the investigation?

Originally posted by Icerider
Pacific Southwest Airlines Flight 1771

."The plane impacted a rocky hillside, leaving a crater less than 2 feet deep and 4 feet across, presumably where the landing gear struck the ground"

Hmm, so how much of it dissapeared into this 2 foot deep hole?.

I do not have access to videos at this moment. I suggest you look on Youtube for video footage. I'm quite certain the crater was bigger than that.

Seems to me your post is a worthless piece of misdirection, and leads me to seriously question your agenda, and to wonder what, exactly, your motives are in trying to perpetuate obvious untruths. Surely this is nothing more than dis-information? Perhaps YOU should try reading, before attempting to propagate it.

Well. I'm sorry that yo ufeel that way.

In control of what, Sigma? BS?

The case still remains unproven - aircraft fly, they don't tunnel underground.

It's only unproven to the few truthers that do not rely on the facts of flight 93. Have you been able to find one investigator that was on the site that agrees with you?

"Here are a few for starters. Not "entirely buried". Neither was flight 93."

Not entirely buried you say? Then how come some of the first media personnel to reach the scene stated that there were no signs of a large commercial aircraft impacting at the site? How can a large commercial aircraft which is "not entirely buried" not be visible at all? Where did it go? Did it blend in with the beautiful Pennsylvania scenery?

"Willy Miller was the CORONER. Do you know what a CORONER does?"

Is this the same guy who stated that he stopped being a coroner after ten minutes of arriving at the scene because there were no body parts? It seems we don't only have a disappearing airplane, but we have disappearing body parts at the scene as well.

"Instead of watching YouTube videos, try reading for a change."

Instead of lazily and blindly believing treasonous factions of the Government, try thinking for yourself for a change.

Originally posted by SphinxMontreal
Not entirely buried you say? Then how come some of the first media personnel to reach the scene stated that there were no signs of a large commercial aircraft impacting at the site? How can a large commercial aircraft which is "not entirely buried" not be visible at all? Where did it go? Did it blend in with the beautiful Pennsylvania scenery?

Have you ever bothered to watch the interviews of those that were there first? Read any books about flight 93? I noticed you didn't post any.

But, here you go Sphinx:

"Courage After the Crash: Flight 93" by Glenn J. Kashurba. SAJ Publishing, 2002.

King: "We stopped and I opened the door. The smell of jet fuel was overpowering. I will never forget that smell; it is really burnt into my mind. ...I walked down the power line and got my first glimpse of human remains. Then I walked a little further and saw more."

Shanksville VFD firefighter Keith Curtis: "I walked up to where the tire was on fire, probably a hundred feet past the crater. It was a big tire. I was thinking that this is a big jet. I hit it good with the hose and put it out. I stopped and 'poof,' it just started on fire again."

Firefighter Mike Sube: "We made our way to a small pond. That's where I observed the largest piece of wreckage that I saw, a portion of the landing gear and fuselage. One of the tires was still intact with the bracket, and probably about three to five windows of the fuselage were actually in one piece lying there. ...There were enough fires that our brush truck was down there numerous times. ...I saw small pieces of human remains and occasionally some larger pieces. That was disturbing, but what was most disturbing was seeing personal effects."

Lieutenant Roger Bailey, Somerset Volunteer Fire Department: "We started down through the debris field. I saw pieces of fiberglass, pieces of airplane, pop rivets, and mail...Mail was scattered everywhere. ...the one guy who was with us almost stepped on a piece of human remains. I grabbed him, and he got about half woozy over it."

So, what you had was quite a large aircraft crash, nose down, at a high rate of speed. You and other truthers state that the crash site is not what is supposed to be. Yet, you have not found one single crash scene investigator that was there who agrees with you. Why is that?

Is this the same guy who stated that he stopped being a coroner after ten minutes of arriving at the scene because there were no body parts? It seems we don't only have a disappearing airplane, but we have disappearing body parts at the scene as well.

Yes it is! Do you know why he said that?

Instead of lazily and blindly believing treasonous factions of the Government, try thinking for yourself for a change.

Okay, here I what I will do. I will ignore the following:

Four hijackers that purchased tickets under their own names and boarded the plane. One was randomly selected for and passed additional security screening. Ziad Jarrah was a licensed pilot and had recent training on professional large jet flight simulators. United flight 93 was scheduled to depart at 8:00 am, but left 42 minutes late due to airport traffic. Aboard were 33 passengers, 7 crew members, and 4 hijackers.

Several passengers and crew called from the plane, spoke with loved ones, described the hijackers' attack, and related their plan to try to retake the plane so that it would not be used as a suicide weapon against a populated area. All but two of these calls were made using the plane's seatback Airfones.

The cockpit voice recorder recorded the hijackers' attack and apparent murder of the pilots and a flight attendant. Air traffic controllers heard a radio transmission by a man with an Arabic accent, warning of a bomb on board. Passengers reported that one of the hijackers had what appeared to be a bomb strapped to him.

After learning about the other attacks, passengers and cabin crew attempted to retake the cockpit but were apparently unable to gain entry. The sound of their attempts was recorded on the CVR. The CVR also recorded the hijackers' decision to end the flight, followed by repeated shouts of "Allahu Akbar!" ("God is greatest.") until the plane crashed. Families of victims heard the CVR recording.

Flight 93 was tracked by radar until it went down.

Many people in Pennsylvania saw the Boeing 757, traveling at low altitude and high speed, roll to the right and plummet upside-down, nose first, towards the ground. Many people witnessed the subsequent enormous explosion and fireball. Val McClatchey photographed the mushroom cloud.

Hundreds of first responders (mostly volunteer firefighters) and crime scene investigators were quickly on the scene. They saw human remains, aircraft wreckage, personal effects, jet fuel, etc.
The cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder were recovered and had usable data, all of which is consistent with the other evidence.

The remains of every victim was positively identified. Somerset County Coroner Wallace Miller personally collected many remains and made 12 identifications through fingerprints and dental records. Personal effects of most passengers and crew were recovered and returned to their families.

Hijacker identification documents and personal effects were recovered, along with the remains of four people identified as the hijackers through the process of elimination.

The debris was returned to United Airlines after being examined for evidence of explosives use.

reply to post by Six Sigma


'Most of that portion of the aircraft which struck the ground forming this crater was buried within it. Only a few fragments of the wreakage were visable in the bottom of the crater........'

Ok, important phrases here:-

'That portion' - i.e. part of the aircraft, not the complete aircraft.

'Visible in the bottom of the crater' - i.e. there was visible wreckage, and it was at the bottom of a CRATER, it did not 'burrow' into the ground leaving "no sign of an aircraft crashing"

I am curious as to the source of this accident report, complete with its 'typos' - can you please supply a reference or link to this?

'Swissair flight 111, was an MD-11 that crashed nose-down into the sea at 300 knots in 1998. Most of the wreckage was so fragmented that dredges had to be used to recover it. Did you read that part of the investigation?'

And your point is? A body hitting water at 70mph will experience impact forces equivalent to hitting concrete - hardly surprising this aircraft disintegrated. Nevertheless, it was still water, so naturally the remnants of the plane would sink - are you suggesting that the surface of the strip mining site had as little resistance as water, therefore allowing any wreckage on the surface to sink? Hmmm.


Flight 1771

'I do not have access to videos at this moment. I suggest you look on Youtube for video footage. I'm quite certain the crater was bigger than that.'

Well, your certainty is reassuring, but not persuasive.
But you are claiming there was no crater! - you are comparing this incident to flight UA93, on the grounds that wreckage disappeared into the ground! Worse yet, you can provide no evidence to support this argument, and want ME to go find it for you!

As far as investigation is concerned, I have studied the timeline, and the reports, and there is no convincing picture emerges from any of it - lots of conflicting testimony though.
Have you any idea how easy it is to coerce people into saying what you want them to, if you have the power to do so? How many different ways there are of achieving that? It is in the nature of conspiracy that this would be a part of the story. That's the point - everything you are told has to be examined critically.

Regards your apology - no worries, My feelings are not important. What is important is that information or evidence from either side of this debate can be supported UNEQUIVOCALLY - it really isn't good enough to just make claims without being prepared to demonstrate their veracity.

Maybe your motives are good, maybe you want to believe that the people who control our lives are benevolent, that what you are told is true. If that's the case then PLEASE be more careful before presenting 'evidence' to support your claims.

I am not a truth-er, as you seem to imply, but neither am I prepared to accept information that seems counter intuitive as fact without some kind of proof.
In the case of UA93 and AA77, the details of both incidents seem at best unlikely, which is why after failing to find anything myself, I have requested other instances of a similar nature, in less controversial circumstances, be demonstrated to support the OS.

I'm still waiting.

Originally posted by Six Sigma
What Mr. Miller is stating is hearsay. And it's wrong.

Yes, we know the official Shanksville story is wrong. We have been trying to tell you that for years now.

You know it is not in ANY reports that the plane cartwheeled. Have you read the FDR reports? Do they show that what Mr. Miller is saying as accurate? Can you please show me ANY offical report that explains flight 93 cartwheeling?

He's not saying the alleged 757 did a full cartwheel, or multiple cartwheels, his hand gesturing is show that supposedly when the 757 hit, its wingtip hit first and that caused the plane to begin to cartwheel and the cockpit section hit next, causing the cockpit section to break off and shatter into the woods.

Hearsay.

Who do you think told Miller that then? He seems like a professional who wouldn't use hearsay from any Joe-Shmoe.

Can you please source this? Not the article by Mr. Lambert, the investigators that he spoke with that told them this. Why? Well... you have Tim Lambert reporting that he talked to someone that was told by someone that was told by someone.

Miller said "the explanation was..." and Lambert said "According to investigators...". It's not rocket science to know what that means.

If the FBI explained this to the landlord how the plane crashed, it would have been premature and speculative. At the time of the completion of the FBI's invvestigation, infomation from the black boxes had not yet been retrieved.

Who said the FBI didn't tell them after they finished their investigation?

Wait... Lisa talks about a spoon into coffee... Wally talks about a cart wheel... Well... which one is it?

She's confirming the official story that the rest of the plane buried and the soil fell back in, sealing any traces that most of the plane supposedly burrowed deep into the ground. (I know, the official story gets crazier and crazier, huh?!)

Was Wally's story to Dominic the same as the "offical story."

Um, yeah...

On Hallowed Ground
"In its final moments, it spun 180 degrees, hitting the ground upside down and at a 45-degree angle.
Somerset County is dotted with mines; some still working but most abandoned. The 20-hectare plot that Wallace Miller walked had been mined for coal on its surface and underground for 30 years.
In 1990, the reclamation process began: 190,000 cubic metres of soil and dynamited rock were spread over the site, then sewn with grass.
To the casual eye, it looked like solid, consolidated ground but in reality the reclaimed expanse was loose and uncompacted. When flight 93 hit the ground, the cockpit and first-class cabin broke off, scattered into millions of fragments that spread and flew like shrapnel into and through the trees 20 metres away.
A section of the engine, weighing almost a tonne, was found on the bed of a catchment pond, 200 metres downhill.
Some of the plane's cargo was found intact ­ 200 kilograms of mail in the hold, a Bible, its cover scorched but its pages undamaged and later, as the excavation began, the passport of one of the four hijackers.
The rest of the 757 continued its downward passage, the sandy loam closing behind it like the door of a tomb. Eventually these pieces and its human cargo ­ the heroes and the cowards, as a message left at the nearby temporary memorial put it ­ came to rest against solid rock, 23 metres below the surface.
"I've seen a lot of highway fatalities where there's fragmentation," Miller said. "The interesting thing about this particular case is that I haven't, to this day, 11 months later, seen any single drop of blood. Not a drop." - The Age (09/09/02)

If you have another version of the official story, I'm all eyes. I've been asking you skeptics for the official details for quite some time now.

(double post)

Skeptics, do you agree that the following explanation about how Flight 93 crashed is patenetely absurd:

Flight 93's wing hit first, causing the 757 to begin the cartwheel which caused the underside of the cockpit section to strike the ground next, causing the front section to break off and shatter into the woods while the rest of the plane on back burrowed deep into the ground and then the soil, being still loose from the strip-mine reclaiming, fell back in on the newly crated deep hole, thus covering up any evidence of a deep hole and that most of the United 757 was buried down in it.

yes or no

Hello, skeptics?

You wanted proof, I gave you proof. Be man enough to concede.

reply to post by ATH911


They've been buying that story for 9 years now ,, thats got to tell yea something about there mental state...

Well skeptics,

are you going to give us the "correct" version of the official crash explanation, or are you going to man up and concede defeat?

Some skeptics need a refresher course on what the actually story of the alleged Flight 93 crash is.

reply to post by ATH911


So, Mr. Miller did the work for the FBI, NTSB, and UA investigating the crash?

Have you contacted anyone from the FBI for the official story?

Where in FDR data does it show the plane cartwheeling?

When did UA say their aircraft cartwheeled?

When, ATH, will you be coming back to the Flight 93 Phone call thread... you were pretty much schooled in there.