Revelation; The two witnesses

reply to post by Logarock

Yes, and the original word order really confirms it.
Literally- "Moses and Elijah they appearing in glory they-spoke..."

Having established this how do you see Moses here, condition, knowing Jesus and Elijah had not yet suffered death?

For me and keeping it simple Moses here means that he did not die or has not tasted death. That the transfigured state is a predeath physical condition given maybe to only these three. Some say Jesus didnt have to die to live forever. If thats true it is right here where he gained that condition but set it aside, gave it up for the greater task at hand.


Here is another thing....these guy represent men that talked with God but did not die. As the Israelites said of Moses "now we see that a man can talk (or be face to face) to God and not die". So thier showing on the Mt with Christ was to show that Christ was God but also that these men had not died.

Can you think of any reason God would hide the fact Moses was really alive but not Elijah?

[edit on 1-9-2010 by Logarock]

reply to post by Logarock

How do you propose to bring in the two "olive trees", bearing in mind that in Zechariah they represent the king and the high priest?

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by nlouise


Oh. Ok you are saying that the two witnesses have to die, and that since the two were prophets that never died, this is the point where they die. Am I understanding this viewpoint correctly?

The two in the Bible that never died were Elijah & Enoch. Moses died, Satan even argued for his body. (Satan possibly does this with all the followers because he is also called the accuser of the brethern.).

Yes it would seem on the face of it that there is no reason to believe that Moses didnt die and that Enoch yet lives.

But it really doesnt say that Enoch lived just that he was "taken away" which may mean he didnt die.

Moses on the other hand....although it says he died....no one went up with him there is no know grave in the tradition. And we really need to consider what in the world satan needs a dead body for. Plus there is no other known case where satan is said to have wanted anyones dead body. Even if Moses did die it is more likely that satan was trying to get Moses majic rod and staff thinking he could use them.

All I am saying is that to those that wrote the story what looked like satan and mike fighting over the body may have been satan fighting to keep Moses from going where it was that elijah went.

Deuteronomy 34:5 (King James Version)

5So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.

Conjecture: Some think the reason Satan wanted Moses body was so that it could be shrined and used as an object of worship by the Jews, which would be idolatry. One scripture that suggest this could happen is the very one we used:

Matthew 17:4 (King James Version)

4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by nlouise

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by nlouise

Show me the scripture that says that Moses and Elijah were transfigured also.

Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

29And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

30And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.


The 'Who' is Jesus. He is appearing in glory, he is the one speaking of his own decease which he should (would) accomplish at Jerusalem.

My opinion is that the : was added by the translators or the KJV. It has been removed by later translations...

the NKJV reads....and other translations....

And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

Moses has been recorded as already having been in this state when he came down from the Mt and was also seen later surounded by Gods cloud of Glory when he and his brother were about to be stoned to death.

Moses appears transfigured becouse he had already been transfigured on the Mt and we must assume that Elijah had been at some point, probably after he was taken. The logic is that being transfigured Moses could have not died a natural death but like Christ and elijah was set aside for a special death and now Christ also gained this level of being.....thus fullfilling the prophets. There is much more to this than i can write here but it is true that Christ in order to fullfill had to become in all fasions like the great prophets of God. In fact he was often called by the names of past prophets.

Good point. We know that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven, so between here and there, there would have to be a spiritual transition.

Conjecture: I believe that Christ was showing his apostles that day, a sample of that transition and including Moses and Elias to show the transition on both sides of life and death.

Originally posted by Logarock
reply to post by Greensage

 

I may agree with most of what you say in spirit....but we are talking about two persons....two witnesses....to very real persons. Extending this like you do is really off topic....but nice thoughts.

You missed it then, my entire post is about the two Witnesses; you missed it entirely. If two physical Witnesses are here then we only need to ask ourselves, "how will they present themselves to us?"

There are many avenues of thought to one topic, you missed this one because you are not inclusive in your thoughts. I respect that you cannot agree with me but saying I am off topic was not correct at all.

Originally posted by nlouise

Oh. Ok you are saying that the two witnesses have to die, and that since the two were prophets that never died, this is the point where they die. Am I understanding this viewpoint correctly?



Deuteronomy 34:5 (King James Version)

5So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.

Yes this is very clear and God even says Moses died when He talked with Joshua.


[edit on 1-9-2010 by Logarock]

Originally posted by Greensage

Originally posted by Logarock
reply to post by Greensage

 

I may agree with most of what you say in spirit....but we are talking about two persons....two witnesses....to very real persons. Extending this like you do is really off topic....but nice thoughts.

You missed it then, my entire post is about the two Witnesses; you missed it entirely. If two physical Witnesses are here then we only need to ask ourselves, "how will they present themselves to us?"

No...it wasnt. But at any rate.....we might want to consider that the powers that be are certainly not going to let them have any air time.

It may be for the large part that these guys are known only by the chief powers of the earth but the rest of the world will not know why the rain has stoped and water has turned to blood.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Logarock

 

How do you propose to bring in the two "olive trees", bearing in mind that in Zechariah they represent the king and the high priest?

There must be an explanation to that but it clearly says that these two guy will be killed so they must be real people.

Originally posted by MY2Commoncentsworth
reply to post by Freedom of Thought

 

Originally posted by Freedom of Thought
reply to post by MY2Commoncentsworth

 

The Seven Spirits around the Throne are:

Thank you for spending the time to look those up.

Yes these are some of the gifts that are also attributed to the Holy Spirit. Knowledge, Counsel, Understanding, Wisdom, Fear of the Lord, Piety, Fortitude, Joy, Peace, Patience, Benignity, Goodness, Longanimity, Mildness, Faith, Modesty, and Continence.

But I am still seeking the identity's of these 7 Spirits. Who are they? What are their Biblical names other than Wisdom, Knowledge, etc. There must be some clues in the Bible that will point to the identity of these 7 Spirits, and I could probably make a pretty good argument for 6 of them.

Don't worry, I'm not a heretic. I'm just trying to approach some old concepts from a different angle in order to gain some insight.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Logarock

 

How do you propose to bring in the two "olive trees", bearing in mind that in Zechariah they represent the king and the high priest?

There must be an explanation to that but it clearly says that these two guy will be killed so they must be real people.

Conjecture: True that it says that the witnesses will be killed, but what if the candlestick represents those who were gentile, but are now in Jesus Christ.....and the olive trees represent the Jews that are also in Jesus Christ. Then the 'killing' begins of those who come forward speaking the true Word of God during that time. Then three days after the murder begins and bodies are laying in the streets, Jesus comes back and raises the dead. -Not saying this is fact, only one scenario.

reply to post by nlouise


So you are saying that these are figurative and represent the rapture of the saints among other things?

reply to post by Freedom of Thought
My2CommonCentsWorth;
The gifts of the Spirit that you listed (as described in Corinthians) are
different from The 7 Spirits around the Throne.
The gifts of the (Holy)Spirit are the Christ-like attributes that are given
to the believer upon acceptance of Jesus Christ as one's Saviour. As you
mentioned: faith, the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, working of
miracles, prophesying, discerning of spirits, tongues, interpretation of tongues [from 1 Corinthians 12: 7-11] The listing of gifts of the Spirit in
Corinthians are what an individual believer can be expected to exhibit
following belief and public confession of Christ .
The Seven Spirits around the throne are Heavenly Beings who actually
exist; separate from each other, and separate entities from the HOLY SPIRIT.
The Holy Spirit is the third part of The Trinity of Father and Son.
The Seven Spirits around the throne are different than the Holy Spirit.

"But the Anointing which you have recieved from Him abides in you, and
you do not need that anyone teach you: but as the same anointing teaches
you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has
taught you, you will abide in Him". 1 John 2:27

The Holy Spirit will lead you and guide you, like the verse above says,
as you read The Bible. If you have questions, they will be answered.
Part of the Freedom of Christianity, is ultimately, you do not have to
rely on someone else to tell you what to think. That is the job of The
Holy Spirit.
There is no greater or lesser in Christianity. There is no middleman.
It is only you, the believer, and The Lord Jesus Christ. You do not need
another human being to be over you, or above you in the heirarchy.
You have freedom of thought to read for yourself (The Bible),and to pray
your own prayers (with the Holy Spirit as your friend, comforter, guide and
teacher).
The Seven Spirits: each attributed with a part of God's personality,
stand alone and are responsible for enacting God's will. For example,
Joshua ( 6th book in Old Testament). Now Joshua fought many battles.
It was Joshua that had stood with Moses, and recieved the 'mantle' (i.e.
carrying on where Moses left off). Anyway, the 5 Amorite Kings decided
to go attack the Israelites.
.."Joshua ascended from Gilgal, he and all the people of war with him,
and all the mighty men of valor". ..Then Joshua spoke to The Lord...
and said:"Sun, stand still over Gibeon; and Moon, in the Valley of
Aijalon. So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, Till the people
had revenge upon their enemies." Joshua 10: 7-13
I would say The Spirit of Judgment and Burning was present there.

Originally posted by Freedom of Thought

Originally posted by MY2Commoncentsworth
reply to post by Freedom of Thought

 

Originally posted by Freedom of Thought
reply to post by MY2Commoncentsworth

 

The Seven Spirits around the Throne are:

Thank you for spending the time to look those up.

Yes these are some of the gifts that are also attributed to the Holy Spirit. Knowledge, Counsel, Understanding, Wisdom, Fear of the Lord, Piety, Fortitude, Joy, Peace, Patience, Benignity, Goodness, Longanimity, Mildness, Faith, Modesty, and Continence.

But I am still seeking the identity's of these 7 Spirits. Who are they? What are their Biblical names other than Wisdom, Knowledge, etc. There must be some clues in the Bible that will point to the identity of these 7 Spirits, and I could probably make a pretty good argument for 6 of them.

Don't worry, I'm not a heretic. I'm just trying to approach some old concepts from a different angle in order to gain some insight.

I'm just adding to the insight you provided, although I think Judgement if looked at as a not-so good things could be one of the 7 evil spirits also mentioned in the Bible. I can see where Judgement could be also from God, but I am just adding to what you provided, as another possiblity:


The one scripture you quoted lists 7 alone: Isa. 11:2

Isaiah 11:2 (King James Version)

2And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

1 spirit of the Lord
2 spirit of wisdom
3 spirit of understanding
4 spirit of counsel
5 spirit of might (power)
6 spirit of knowledge
7 spirit of fear of the Lord

Looking at the overall these could be applied to both gifts of (given by) the Spirit and also attributed to putting on the full armour of God.

Not saying I know the answer, but reading your post (which was very good by the way) opened my thinking to this possiblity.

reply to post by Freedom of Thought
My2CommonCentsWorth: Sorry, Just re-read your post again.
The traits you listed are fruits of the Spirit. I.e. You may meet a
Christian who seemingly Never gets mad.[Patience]. Someone who is constantly kind[Gentleness]. These are character traits exhibited
by a person who is genuinely following Christ, and has His heart.
In other words, a mature Christian is someone who actually exemplifies
(lives) the qualities of character you listed. ...Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks
no evil: does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth:
bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things."
1 Corinthians 13:4-8.

Originally posted by Logarock
reply to post by nlouise

 

So you are saying that these are figurative and represent the rapture of the saints among other things?

No, I do not subscribe to any pre-trib or mid-trib rapture. I realize that it is a topic of contention, so I avoid it.



edit: fixed a misspelled word.

[edit on 1-9-2010 by nlouise]

reply to post by Freedom of Thought



Yes and never in most peoples lives will you ever meet someone like this....but you will meet folks that like to use this passage to hide behind....like wolves in sheeps wool...full of judgment and mouthing things of peace and cupcakes, yet tearing others apart.

Originally posted by Logarock
reply to post by nlouise

 

So you are saying that these are figurative and represent the rapture of the saints among other things?

I'm assuming that you are referring to the Corinthians verse?

At the 7th (last) trumpet Jesus Christ returns, those that are in him and are still alive will be given their glorified bodies. That is what I believe. No secret rapture theory. I believe it is a big misunderstanding of both Thessalonians and Corinthians.

reply to post by nlouise
nlouise; Thank you for your kinds words, and yes, I do understand
your point. This is either my 5th or 6th time of reading the Bible front to back, and even I wonder sometimes. However, I digress. Let me show you.

Spirit of Grace Spirit of Justice
(Hebrews 10:29) (Isaiah 28:6)

Spirit of Grace and Spirit of Judgment and Burning
Supplication (Isaiah 4:4)
(Zechariah 12:10)

Spirit of Holiness Spirit of Glory
( Romans 1:4 ) 1 Peter 4:14

Spirit of Gentleness Spirit of Counsel and Might
(Galatians 6:1) (Isaiah 11:2)

Spirit of Wisdom Spirit of Knowledge and fear of
(Genesis 28:3) the Lord (Isaiah 11:2)

Spirit of Wisdom and
Understanding (Isaiah 11:2)

Sometimes, like with The Spirit of Grace(Hebews 10:29) and then The Spirit of Grace (and supplication Zechariah 12:10) and The Spirit of
Wisdom (Genesis 28:3) and The Spirit of Wisdom (and understanding
Isaiah 11:2), it seems to me to be the same thing. I could be incorrect,
but my example would be The Northern Lights over Alaska. Some people
call them the Aurora Borealis; others call the luminescence The Northern
Lights, and others might just call it The Green Stuff.
I would definitely Not call The Spirit of Judgment and Burning an evil thing. Do you remember The Lassie shows on Sunday nights? Ok, how
about John Wayne? Clint Eastwood? All right, my last offer...Bruce
Willis???? The point I'm making is: all the characters that these guys
portrayed 'in the movies' got beat up, shot up, the heck knocked out
of 'em by The Bad Guys. But At The Final Moment, when all seemed
lost.......THE GOOD GUYS WON. We cried, shed discrete tears, and gave
loud 'Ooorah's' for when the BAD GUYS finally got their just desserts.
That is Justice. And without Justice there can be no hope for moral
retribution.
Our God is a God of Love. He is also Balanced, even-handed, and fair.
The opposite of Love is Hate. God hates evil. Therefore, evil must
be punished. That is fair. That is Justice.
The Spirit of Judgment and Burning is a good guy.

the two-witnesses...are not born as the 'Two Witnesses'...
(nor do they suddenly 'poof' onto the world scene from a heavenly dimension)

They were once lowly humans, which are both given powers of prophecy and to turn water into blood, also to smite men with plagues
and to cause severe drought suddenly, wherever that deem proper...


these two witnesses will be suddenly indwelt with the 'spirit'
(perhaps this means the spirits of Elijah, Moses overcome their own self/ego/identity)

These 'Two Witnesses' serve in their devine condition for their specific 1,260 days & will begin their ministry/mission wearing sackcloth...
[~so when you see the Pope wearing sackcloth instead of fine robes
be alert for a 2nd world figure to join him as a team]~

they will be known to the faithful as the "Two Olive Trees & Two Candlesticks" rather than a 'channel' for Elijah or Moses' spirits

here we should think in the terms which St Malichi used to identify each of the line of 112 Popes with their particular icon...
take heed that Pope Benedict is the 'Glory of Olives' satisfying the 'olive tree' prediction... which begs, just whom will be the 'candlestick'


Pope Benedict XVI (olive tree) & the second person (candlestick) probably of Jewish heritage ~hence the iconic Menorah~
will compose the future 'Two Witnesses' that somehow begin a mission by either their desire to hasten
end-time armageddon or are somehow taken over as conduits for YHWH's plan


scary




[edit on 1-9-2010 by St Udio]