Revelation; The two witnesses

Originally posted by Greensage
This man wants to speak the Truth, I can feel it in my bones.

Everyone has the opportunity for Forgiveness, and Fidel is no exception.

I'll be more inclined to believe that he's one of the Witnesses when I read that he's been preaching the gospel. This is part of the definition.

Originally posted by nlouise

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by nlouise

Show me the scripture that says that they have to be killed.

Rev 11:7 ¶ And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

True, there is going to be a bloodbath against the believers. I picture something like the days of Hitler only on a world scale.

Right but this passage is in regards to the two witnesses is what I am saying.

reply to post by DISRAELI



Yea some sort of end times gospel.


Rev 11-And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Here are some of the reasons Elijah and Moses are called for.....water into blood and power over the weather.

...and to smite the earth with plagues as often as they will....or whenever they feel like it.

Fire proceeds out of thier mouth.....like a dragon? devouring thier enemies.

"because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth".

Wow.

Another thing with these guy is that they "ascended up to heaven in a cloud.....and then the next woe....judgment rev 11

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Originally posted by nlouise

Show me the scripture that says that Moses and Elijah were transfigured also.

Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by nlouise

Show me the scripture that says that Moses and Elijah were transfigured also.

Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

Ok, I see where you are getting this, here it is in context

Luke 9:27-32 (King James Version)

27But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

28And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

29And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

30And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

32But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.



The 'Who' is Jesus. He is appearing in glory, he is the one speaking of his own decease which he should (would) accomplish at Jerusalem.

I can see where it can be taken as the 'Who' being Moses & Elias, but when you read the same story in the other two gospels the 'Who' is Jesus.

In Matthew it is Jesus that is transfigured:

Matthew 17
1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. (After this verse is when he speaks)


Mark 9

3And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

4And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

5And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

6For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.

7And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. (again, God is referring to Jesus who is about to say something)

8And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

9And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by nlouise

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by nlouise

Show me the scripture that says that they have to be killed.

Rev 11:7 ¶ And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

True, there is going to be a bloodbath against the believers. I picture something like the days of Hitler only on a world scale.

Right but this passage is in regards to the two witnesses is what I am saying.

Oh. Ok you are saying that the two witnesses have to die, and that since the two were prophets that never died, this is the point where they die. Am I understanding this viewpoint correctly?

The two in the Bible that never died were Elijah & Enoch. Moses died, Satan even argued for his body. (Satan possibly does this with all the followers because he is also called the accuser of the brethern.).

reply to post by Logarock


I just noticed your signature. Do you really know what Rush is saying?
It's funny because, on another forum I use my signature as a chorus lyric from Queensryche 'Roads to Madness':

And still I'm standing here
I'm awaiting this grand transition
Maybe one day, oh I'll meet you, and we'll
Walk the roads to madness

Then I have underneath: 1 Corinthians 15:51 (King James Version)

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,


Because that is what they are singing about.

Rev 11-And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

when i read this passage, i don't take it literally. there are some people you talk to and maybe try to argue with but they have the sharpest tongue and quickest reply and an answer to everything that it just leaves you dumbstruck.

john the baptist and jesus displayed this wit. at least this is how the four gospels portrayed it and i believe this is what we can expect out of the witnesses.

Originally posted by iamnot

Rev 11-And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

when i read this passage, i don't take it literally.

I agree, though I'm not sure I spelt this out as clearly as I meant.
I was getting short of space, so odd phrases had to be left out.
In the OP, I referred to the promise made to Jeremiah, that his words would be a fire and "this people will be made wood" and get burnt up by the words, meaning that his words of warning would be confirmed by God's actions of judgement.

What I meant to suggest was that this would be true for the Witnesses in the same metaphorical way; they would give warning of judgement, and their warnings would be fulfilled. despite the scepticism of their audience.

PS I've just checked the original wording of the OP.
"That power is visualised in the case of the two witnesses, which implies a similar promise".
So the metaphorical interpretation is there, but not fully spelt out.





[edit on 1-9-2010 by DISRAELI]

Originally posted by Logarock
Fire proceeds out of thier mouth.....like a dragon? devouring thier enemies.

Can I remind you of the explanation in the OP, that this is effectively a quotation from Jeremiah. God was promising Jeremiah that the warnings in his prophecies woulod be fulfilled in God's actions ("this people will be burnt up"), even though his hearers were sceptical.
I suggest that this verse is saying the same thing about the two witnesses; that their warnings of judgement will be fulfilled, and the oppressing power will be destroyed.




[edit on 1-9-2010 by DISRAELI]

Originally posted by iamnot

Rev 11-And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

john the baptist and jesus displayed this wit. at least this is how the four gospels portrayed it and i believe this is what we can expect out of the witnesses.

Well I didnt mean by the question that fire would literaly come out of thier mouth.

reply to post by DISRAELI



Yes right something like that. Fire here is a form...a high order of speaking the truth.

Jer 23:29 [Is] not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer [that] breaketh the rock in pieces?

Originally posted by nlouise


Oh. Ok you are saying that the two witnesses have to die, and that since the two were prophets that never died, this is the point where they die. Am I understanding this viewpoint correctly?

The two in the Bible that never died were Elijah & Enoch. Moses died, Satan even argued for his body. (Satan possibly does this with all the followers because he is also called the accuser of the brethern.).

Yes it would seem on the face of it that there is no reason to believe that Moses didnt die and that Enoch yet lives.

But it really doesnt say that Enoch lived just that he was "taken away" which may mean he didnt die.

Moses on the other hand....although it says he died....no one went up with him there is no know grave in the tradition. And we really need to consider what in the world satan needs a dead body for. Plus there is no other known case where satan is said to have wanted anyones dead body. Even if Moses did die it is more likely that satan was trying to get Moses majic rod and staff thinking he could use them.

All I am saying is that to those that wrote the story what looked like satan and mike fighting over the body may have been satan fighting to keep Moses from going where it was that elijah went.

Exd 4:17 And thou shalt take this rod in thine hand, wherewith thou shalt do signs.

Moses calls it the Rod of God

Exd 17:9 ....I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand.

the rod that turned the water into blood, as one of the witnesses will do....literaly like Moses not a figure of speech.

Exd 17:5 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go on before the people, and take with thee of the elders of Israel; and thy rod, wherewith thou smotest the river, take in thine hand, and go.

Exd 7:20 And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that [were] in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that [were] in the river were turned to blood.

Anyway you can study Moses rod and/or staff (although another word is used) for yourself.

Here is another power staff in the hand of the angel of the Lord and may have been the same one that Moses used.

Jdg 6:21 Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that [was] in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.

Another thing to think about is the Lords condemnation of Israel leaning on the staff of Egypt....forgetting that the power of Egypts staff had been absorbed into Moses staff. Anyway the rod or staff here has real power and this may be what satan wanted.

Originally posted by nlouise

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by nlouise

Show me the scripture that says that Moses and Elijah were transfigured also.

Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

29And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

30And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.


The 'Who' is Jesus. He is appearing in glory, he is the one speaking of his own decease which he should (would) accomplish at Jerusalem.

My opinion is that the : was added by the translators or the KJV. It has been removed by later translations...

the NKJV reads....and other translations....

And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

Moses has been recorded as already having been in this state when he came down from the Mt and was also seen later surounded by Gods cloud of Glory when he and his brother were about to be stoned to death.

Moses appears transfigured becouse he had already been transfigured on the Mt and we must assume that Elijah had been at some point, probably after he was taken. The logic is that being transfigured Moses could have not died a natural death but like Christ and elijah was set aside for a special death and now Christ also gained this level of being.....thus fullfilling the prophets. There is much more to this than i can write here but it is true that Christ in order to fullfill had to become in all fasions like the great prophets of God. In fact he was often called by the names of past prophets.

No one ever dies, we are all the embodiment of everyone that has come before us.

To embody the Christ within is just an expression, or is it?. To embody a 'role' would in essence awaken within such an embodiment of Spirit. To simply play the part creates the energy of that expression. Through Belief.

Who is to say what constitutes Gospel for the World's ears today? The entire World's ears! Anyone that could speak such Truths would have been privy to our World's current problems, the secrets within, and the Societies holding us at bay.

What kind of Gospel would be expected?

Suggesting that a Biblical Character has been wandering around waiting to come back to speak to us, about us, is out of touch when we have Monsters on this planet!

These Witnesses are Within, within the roles they must play against the World's leaders as Kings under one False King; it is obvious they would be "One of them", now fully awakened to the embodiment of Spirit. I believe they are Leaders, or very close to it, even if they are considered of a Terrible Nature themselves.

It is all about the Role that must be fulfilled. Who are they and where are they? It is time to reveal Truths!

They are here amongst us we only need to see them for what they are within. I am not expecting a Blonde Haired Blue Eyed Savior with a nice Beard any more than I would accept a Biblical Character with the Gospels in hand. We are the Believers so our World will express us as we express outwardly. Literally and often figuratively if that makes any sense because it is all Spirit Embodiment Within.

Originally posted by Logarock

the NKJV reads....and other translations....

And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

I've just looked this up in the Greek text, and you appear to be right..
The key point is that in the words "appearing in glory", the phrase HOI OPHTHENTES ("these people appearing") is in the plural- that is, it must be Moses and Elijah.

reply to post by Greensage



I may agree with most of what you say in spirit....but we are talking about two persons....two witnesses....to very real persons. Extending this like you do is really off topic....but nice thoughts.

Originally posted by Greensage

Suggesting that a Biblical Character has been wandering around waiting to come back to speak to us, about us, is out of touch when we have Monsters on this planet!

OK not really. There will be a moster let out of the pit that only these two are given the power to fight. The whole of the collective whatever will not be able to dish out the damage these two guys will.

We are to fight the spirit of antichrist but the things talked about here with the two witnesses will be a whole new ball game on a supernatural set that we can only comprehend when we behold the power these two men had durring thier on earth ministry.

reply to post by DISRAELI


The word doxa (splendour, brightness) for glory is also out of context here in its other definitions. This is the glory spoken of here.....a transfiguring glory of the persons into a bright and shining glory. Doxa.