British houswife speaks out about her feelings on the Wars on Terror

Originally posted by AmosGraber

“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. “--John Stuart Mill

That's me to a tee
I loathe war and I also abhor unbridled patriotism.
Whose morals are we talking about? The ones from a superstitious death cult or the personal ones that develop through association with family friends and life experience?

I find it really difficult to find something I would go to war for. I do not want to be a murderer.
Protecting my family and friends is not an act of war and the distinction needs to be made.

John Stuart Mill was a product of his time (as we all are). Could you tell me the context of that quote and also why you consider it still relevant today?

I consider that it is time for a paradigm shift. I do not support the decisions that lead to war, and this includes not supporting the troops. This is my personal choice.


Edit: that letter was despicable and illustrates the cancerous attitudes bred by intolerance and war.

[edit on 25-8-2010 by aorAki]

reply to post by pikestaff

Originally posted by pikestaff
reading the replies, seems to me, no one else cares either about the Taliban beating a pregnant Afghanistan woman, then shooting her, or children being blown up, Christian doctors being beheaded, need I go on??

I swear to you I thought the majority of posts would be positive, but I guess thats what happens in a society that a vast majority never served in the Miltary, I graduated from I.U last spring, I met this girl from Russia, she said she is amazed by how many people seem to not support their country here in America, I tried to explain our history of civil protest, but she just couldn't understand, in our discussion she said in Russia boys are required to do service in the miltary.

Maybe if more people in America actually knew what it means to serve their country they wouldn't be sitting back in their laps of luxries in front of a computer screen crying about the horrors of war. War is ugyly, stupid, and dumb, but if your nation lets say gets attacked by another country or organization, I believe those nations which have been attacked has every right to hunt down and muder them SOB's, and anyone hiding them.

But I think a great American put it best when he said this when he was speaking before some troops he was getting ready to lead into battle:

"Men, this stuff that some sources sling around about America wanting out of this war, not wanting to fight, is a crock of bull#. Americans love to fight, traditionally. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle…When you, here, every one of you, were kids; you all admired the champion marble player, the fastest runner, the toughest boxer, the big league ball players, and the All-American football players. Americans love a winner. Americans will not tolerate a loser. Americans despise cowards. Americans play to win all of the time. I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed...

Yes, every man is scared in his first battle. If he says he's not, he's a liar. Some men are cowards but they fight the same as the brave men or they get the hell slammed out of them watching men fight who are just as scared as they are. The real hero is the man who fights even though he is scared…

An Army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horse #. The bilious bastards who write that kind of stuff for the Saturday Evening Post don't know any more about real fighting under fire than they know about f#@*%#@%!...Why, by God, I actually pity those poor sons-of-bitches we're going up against. By God, I do…

Each man must not think only of himself, but also of his buddy fighting beside him. We don't want yellow cowards in this Army. They should be killed off like rats. If not, they will go home after this war and breed more cowards. The brave men will breed more brave men. Kill off the goddamned cowards and we will have a nation of brave men.

One of the bravest men that I ever saw was a fellow on top of a telegraph pole in the midst of a furious fire fight in Tunisia. I stopped and asked what the hell he was doing up there at a time like that. He answered, "Fixing the wire, Sir". I asked, "Isn't that a little unhealthy right about now?" He answered, "Yes Sir, but the goddamned wire has to be fixed". I asked, "Don't those planes strafing the road bother you?" And he answered, "No, Sir, but you sure as hell do!" Now, there was a real man. A real soldier…

Sure, we want to go home. We want this war over with. The quickest way to get it over with is to go get the bastards who started it. The quicker they are whipped, the quicker we can go home..My men don't dig foxholes. I don't want them to. Foxholes only slow up an offensive. Keep moving. And don't give the enemy time to dig one either. We'll win this war, but we'll win it only by fighting...

We're not going to just shoot the sons-of-bitches, we're going to rip out their living Goddamned guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks…War is a bloody, killing business. You've got to spill their blood, or they will spill yours. Rip them up the belly. Shoot them in the guts. When shells are hitting all around you and you wipe the dirt off your face and realize that instead of dirt it's the blood and guts of what once was your best friend beside you, you'll know what to do!...

I don't want to get any messages saying, "I am holding my position." We are not holding a Goddamned thing…We are advancing constantly and we are not interested in holding onto anything, except the enemy's balls. We are going to twist his balls and kick the living # out of him all of the time. Our basic plan of operation is to advance and to keep on advancing regardless of whether we have to go over, under, or through the enemy. We are going to go through him like crap through a goose; like # through a tin horn!..

From time to time there will be some complaints that we are pushing our people too hard. I don't give a good Goddamn about such complaints. I believe in the old and sound rule that an ounce of sweat will save a gallon of blood. Pushing means fewer casualties. I want you all to remember that...

There is one great thing that you men will all be able to say after this war is over and you are home once again. You may be thankful that twenty years from now when you are sitting by the fireplace with your grandson on your knee and he asks you what you did in the great World War II, you WON'T have to cough, shift him to the other knee and say, "Well, your Granddaddy shoveled # in Louisiana." No, Sir, you can look him straight in the eye and say, "Son, your Granddaddy rode with the Great Third Army and a Son-of-a-Goddamned-Bitch named Georgie Patton!"

Mayhe these people who seem to think retreating once we are in war is such a good idea maybe their the descendents of some of them yellow belly cowards as the General so eliquently puts it...

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

I can think for myself, thank you...I don't need to be have my basest buttons pushed by email bravo sierra in order to formulate an opinion.

Ahh I see your a REAL man, well good for you. But maybe, just maybe you could be overreacting just slightly?? What is so wrong about anyone writing a letter by whoever, which was edited I don't care how many times, about supporting their troops over the enemy we are fighting??....Maybe, just maybe you ought to ask that formulating mind of yours that question?

reply to post by AmosGraber


Again, that illustrates perfectly why I am against war and will never fight...it sounds like the army is full of bullies and hardarses who don't seem to realise that it takes more guts to stand up and say you won't fight than to join the rest of the sheep and fight.

Thanks for clearing that up for me :b =

Edit: :b =

[edit on 25-8-2010 by aorAki]

reply to post by aorAki


Believe me on this point then too, not a military in the world would ever want someone like you either! You seem to be a person who has not the will to fight for, nothing which is more important than your safety, and yes you will be safe by the exertions of better men than yourself, however since I have not personally met you, and you said on a previous thread you like John Lennon, I'd have to pause on the conclusion Mill made about the miserable creature part...

Originally posted by aorAki
Could you tell me the context of that quote and also why you consider it still relevant today?

As far as the quote by John Stewart Mill, and the context he wrote in, and why I think it so precisely describes the present. What I can tell you about John Stewart Mill, just off the top of my head, is he was considered quite a radical in parliament for his day. Because he believed freedoms and liberty could come under threat just not by political means but by social and cultural beliefs, that quote, “War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing that is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better people than himself."

Pretty much exemplifies Mill’s radical thinking of the time that freedom and liberty could come under attack by society, not just by the government. For example, let’s say someone loves their freedom and liberty, but has no well, let me be gentle no moral, belief in defending that freedom and liberty if it comes under attack, well under Mill’s views that person is a miserable creature, because they are at the core of destroying the very same freedoms and liberties they are enjoying in the present. The relevance to the present, well, isn’t that really just self-evident, or do I really gotta draw a worded diagram for you?

Originally posted by AmosGraber

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

I can think for myself, thank you...I don't need to be have my basest buttons pushed by email bravo sierra in order to formulate an opinion.

Ahh I see your a REAL man, well good for you. But maybe, just maybe you could be overreacting just slightly?? What is so wrong about anyone writing a letter by whoever, which was edited I don't care how many times, about supporting their troops over the enemy we are fighting??....Maybe, just maybe you ought to ask that formulating mind of yours that question?

I don't see myself as over reacting because this is but one of many such bits of crap going viral on the internet. They are a cynical effort to ratchet up jingoism in the face of a losing conflict, and it is obvious that some folks continue to suck it up. Well good for them.

Any fool can see that these wars are a farce, that they have been instigated to make a very few people very rich, and the only way that this cabal can convince good people to give up their money and their lives is to demonise this enemy that they have created. Ever read 1984? War without end?

The best manner in which to support the troops is to bring them home. And please, don't presume to question my masculinity because I don't share either your values or your level of indoctrination. But nice try...

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
I don't see myself as over reacting because this is but one of many such bits of crap going viral on the internet. They are a cynical effort to ratchet up jingoism in the face of a losing conflict, and it is obvious that some folks continue to suck it up. Well good for them.

At least I’m glad to see you wish them well. To ratchet up the feeling of being patriotic, (jingoism) why do people like you think being patriotic is such a terrible thing, I will never know or understand, maybe you should take a closer look of how John Stewart Mill qualified a person who is a miserable creature in one of my previous quotes.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
Any fool can see that these wars are a farce, that they have been instigated to make a very few people very rich, and the only way that this cabal can convince good people to give up their money and their lives is to demonise this enemy that they have created. Ever read 1984? War without end?

I have already stated I believe in Tolstoy’s view that every war is hatched by the governments, the government alone, and what Sartre said about when the rich wage war its the poor who die. But somehow making the comparison the words “demonize” (correct spelling btw) and enemy should somehow be found to have no connection, while our young men and women have “real” life bullets shooting at them from those people, you do not want to demonize or call them the enemy is, well quite hypocritical, cowardly, and pitiful in my opinion. I have read Orwell, but I suppose I may just be a little bit more pessimistic than you, because I think humanity has already self-selected ourselves for extinction. A fine example can be found in your own logic of not being able to connect the dots of young men and women, mostly coming from poor families here fighting a war trying to protect us from terrorism, (You see it doesn’t mean a rat’s behind what you and me think sbout if they are the enemy or not they live it), Why? Because right now there are a bunch people on one side of a hill firing bullets at our miltary on the other side of the hill; and you have the gall to try to tell me I should not consider or demonize the people shooting at our young men and women as the enemy, well ya know what: GO JUMP IN A LAKE, that is just dumb!

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
The best manner in which to support the troops is to bring them home. And please, don't presume to question my masculinity because I don't share either your values or your level of indoctrination. But nice try...

Well here is the real kicker, reality check. You think I’m indoctrinated, because I served my country, I have some kind of understanding what those young kids are going through right now, and I sympathize, while that somehow offends you? Maybe you need to ask yourself who do you support, or you gonnna give me some kind of goobly-goosh about how we shouldn’t be “hating”. I don’t hate the enemy which is trying to kill our military personal, I just want us to murder them SOB’’S, no hate intended. Oh and by the way your masculinity doesn’t have to be in question, its pretty much non existent, obviously, as Mill would describe a person like you, your, ‘a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better people than himself”.



[edit on 25-8-2010 by AmosGraber]

Originally posted by AmosGraber
To ratchet up the feeling of being patriotic, (jingoism) why do people like you think being patriotic is such a terrible thing, I will never know or understand, maybe you should take a closer look of how John Stewart Mill qualified a person who is a miserable creature in one of my previous quotes.




[edit on 25-8-2010 by AmosGraber]

To me, patriotism is similar to religion in that it often leads to irrational decisions based on arbitrary lines in the sand.

If being a pacifist and not being willing to murder people makes me a miserable creature, then so be it. In my mind it does not make me morally corrupt and as stated before it takes greater strength to stand up to the warmongers than to join them, but it seems like you won't agree with that due to the indoctrination you received while serving and obviously it is your way or the highway.

Another reiteration: It's time for a paradigm shift, and old hat attitudes of the warmongering kind need to be excised. After all, our differences are only skin deep, as Homo sapiens sapiens and we have far more in common as a species than we have differences.

We can transcend this animal anger, but we have to want to.

[edit on 25-8-2010 by aorAki]

reply to post by AmosGraber

Here's the deal...while I respect you and your fellow members of the armed forces, I have zero respect for those chicken hawks who manipulate our countries into conflicts that we don't want. It's easy to pick a fight when it's not you expected to come out swingin'.

We're not going to change each others' minds so we ought to leave it off here.

...and as to the following line of yours:
"Oh and by the way your masculinity doesn’t have to be in question, its pretty much non existent, obviously, as Mill would describe a person like you, your, ‘a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better people than himself "

...well, it kinda makes me laugh. Happy trails, Sparky.



[edit on 25-8-2010 by JohnnyCanuck]

reply to post by aorAki


If you really are a true pacifict then you do not have no buisness in a fox hole in the first place, not only would you endanger yourself, but you would endanger those around you. And again I agree with all you have said about the inhumanity of war, as I hope you do with me also, about the examples of the inhumanities of war.

In addition, I do not think Homo sapiens sapiens are as far advanced as you wish they were, I think we are just a hop, skip and a little jump away from our ancient mutated primate relatives, until we truly can give up our primitive moralities and norms we don't have a bright future ahead of us.

[edit on 25-8-2010 by AmosGraber]

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
reply to post by AmosGraber

 

Here's the deal...while I respect you and your fellow members of the armed forces, I have zero respect for those chicken hawks who manipulate our countries into conflicts that we don't want.

Well that’s nice but it kind of feels like your giving me a dollar then just taking it back. Because to say you respect the military, but then say we shouldn't have patriotic feelings towards demonizing our enemy is like a morbid dichotomy, your right I'll never understand.

And I agree about the part about the chicken hawks, I have always liked the David and Goliath analogy; instead of massive war, why don't we just pick our best fighter, while having a simple 1v1 winner take all, heck it would be even better if both sides leaders had to fill the bill.


[edit on 25-8-2010 by AmosGraber]

Originally posted by AmosGraber
reply to post by aorAki

 

If you really are a true pacifict then you do not have no buisness in a fox hole in the first place, not only would you endanger yourself, but you would endanger those around you. And again I agree with all you have said about the inhumanity of war, as I hope you do with me also, about the examples of the inhumanities of war.

Quite right, I wouldn't be in a foxhole....but then according to Patton (?) there shouldn't be foxholes anyway?
Yep, I agree that war is inhumane.

Originally posted by AmosGraberIn addition, I do not think Homo sapiens sapiens are as far advanced as you wish they were, I think we are just a hop, skip and a little jump away from our ancient mutated primate relatives, until we truly can give up our primitive moralities and norms we don't have a bright future ahead of us.

[edit on 25-8-2010 by AmosGraber]

Oh, I don't think we're that advanced at all, which is why I feel it is important to try to find a positive and constructive way out of this mire.

Damn, I must be crazy for I starred that post of yours (and then my computer crashed!).

[edit on 25-8-2010 by aorAki]

Originally posted by EFGuy

Originally posted by harrytuttle
"Nirvana" is the Buddhist's term.

Nirvana is actually a central concept in Indian religion.

[edit on 25-8-2010 by EFGuy]

where do you think buddhism came from?

2nd.............

reply to post by AmosGraber

'Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we?

No, you are not fighting anything, you are allowing other humans to be killed on your behalf because someone told you they are a threat to you.

There is no we, I want nothing to do with your retarded sense of justice nor inability to think for yourself.

Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores in July 2002, and in New York Sept 11/2001 and have continually threatened to do so since?

No, this was conceived by years earlier by another group of terrorists in the guise of government and corporate leaders to have you hand over your freedom.

Were people from all over the world, not brutally murdered that day in London, and in downtown Manhattan, and in a field in Pennsylvania?

Yes and your leaders have prevented genuine unbiased public inquiries to establish the true identities of the murderers.

Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?

Yes and as a result of your need for ignorant retribution thousands more innocent people are dying in an equally if not more horrifying manner, far away so you don't have to think about the consequences of your ignorance.

And I'm supposed to care that a few Taliban were claiming to be tortured by a justice system of the nation they come from and who we are fighting against in a brutal insurgency.

Yes you are if you believe in the Principal of due process innocent until proven guilty and access to a fair trial.

I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11 and 7/7.

There is no evidence proving Osama Bin Laden is guilty of anything you ignorant slapper.

I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere belief of which is a crime punishable by beheading in Afghanistan

If you actually read your bible you will find your god has the same attitude, dumb ass.

I'll care when these thugs tell the world they are sorry for hacking off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed throat.

Perhaps they will care when you actually think about how you instruct other people to leave their babies screaming from the effects of depleted uranium, for no other reason than someone told you it must be done.

I'll care when the cowardly so-called 'insurgents' in Afghanistan come out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques and behind women and children.

Perhaps you will take that same note to your leaders who don't send their sons and daughters to do your killing.

'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of Nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide bombs.

Perhaps you would care more if you flew the planes that drops your bombs on schools and hospitals.

I'll care when the British media stops pretending that their freedom of speech on stories is more important than the lives of the soldiers on the ground or their families waiting at home to hear about them when something happens.

Perhaps you would care more if you learned to read and think before you believed everything you were told in a comic book or by a muppet reading an autocue.

In the meantime, when I hear a story about a British soldier roughing up an Insurgent terrorist to obtain information, know this: I don't care.

And so you reap what you sow

When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take this to the bank: I don't care.

And the bankers will slap themselves on the back for doing such a fine job of turning you into a complete idiot slave.

When I hear that a prisoner – who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and 'fed special food' that is paid for by my taxes – is complaining that his holy book is being 'mishandled,' you can absolutely believe in your heart of hearts: I don't care.

And when the orchestrators of this entire charade take your holy books and burn them forever and you complain, they certainly will not care.

And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled 'Koran' and other times 'Quran.' Well, believe me!! you guessed it ...... I don't care!!

And guess what I for one would be totally amazed that you could spell your own name let alone read your own holy book about a god that doesn't care.

'

Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. Our soldiers don't have that problem.'

And your contribution to peace on earth is what exactly ?

I have another quote that I would like to add Only five defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 1. Jesus Christ

There is no indication that jesus was a real character let alone die for anyone, nonetheless the character was alive a couple of days later. No one died for you, you been lied to all your life and that's why you talk like a clowns wife.

2. The British Soldier. 3. The Canadian Soldier. 4. The US Soldier, and 5. The Australian Soldier

These people died because they mad the choice to become soldiers, their decisions were made as a response to the same propaganda and lies spoon fed to you.

One died for your soul, the other 4 for your freedom.

So why are you not free ?

Right so this woman supports an illegal war with Iraq in the name of 'fighting terrorism'. Hopefully the Global Elite are out there watching these idiots right now and when they do decide to re-populate the world I hope they choose wisely
Seriously, the 9/11 attacks were said to have been committed by saudi terrorists. Not that I believe that but anyway from that we invade Iraq? That's the equivalent of being attacked by Australia and then invading New Zealand.. 'they have a similar accent and we don't really like sheep that much so here's a flag and a gun and whatever other crap you need, now let's go - for God and country!'
And she said she wants Osama Bin Laden to turn himself in? I mean the FBI want him too for the 1993 WTC bombings but not for 9/11 because they themselves admit that there is no evidence connecting him to it.
These people are enough to make me pray for nuclear holocaust!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[ADMIN UPDATE]
The actual author being Doug Patton, Columnist and Political Speechwriter.
www.gopusa.com...

The viral email apparently started when a woman from Atlanta, GA (Pam Foster) forwarded this revised version to her nephew serving in Baghdad, Iraq.
www.snopes.com...

Originally posted by Britguy
I think I'm going to be sick!

What an utter load of drivel. I somehow doubt this was written by a British housewife at all. The wording and some phrases just seem so American. It's almost like one of those anonymous email chains that turn up from time to time, expressing outrage over something, but never actaually sourced.

Your right, the wording in the letter does not sound like its said by someone who is British, for one the phrase "take it to the bank" I have never heard anyone in this country ever use that phrase, what does it mean anyhow?

People here just don't think that way, the consensus is get the Soldiers home, stop fighting this stupid wasteful War, never an I don't care attitude ever.

We just don't live that way here, Britain has been a multi cultural society for quite some time, in most schools our kids are taught respect for religion, and in most cases allowed to choose their own paths in faith.

As the UPDATE shows, this was never a British housewife, most British would know instantly we just don't think that way here, and the day we do will be a very sad day.

3 words sum this email up PRO WAR PROPAGANDA it makes me sick! British housewife yeah right! the words look to me like they have been written by an american patriotic sheep.

I don't care for this type of spin. down with anybody who holds a gun to kill people.

Originally posted by earthdude
Studies have shown that the average British person is less intelligent than the average American person. I am seeing this.

I would be interested in reading this study if you can post a link,
many thanks,

PEACE,
RK

reply to post by Rigel Kent

www.sciencedaily.com...
one source. Brits have better soccer skills and things, like making tea.