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Switzerland 4 rivers

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posted on Oct, 8 2010 @ 03:49 PM
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Originally posted by catwhoknows

Maybe the secret is staying out of warfare? Every country which engages in warfare commits crimes against humanity, but Switzerland does not.

Except for the Swiss banks which conceal the multi-millions of evil-doers. And thereby make a fortune themselves.

So, Switzerland is not so pure after all.


They don't just conceal them, they knowingly profit from them. I think the term is money laundering.

Besides they hardly stay out of warfare. Every one of the Allies had a spy network in situ, that was why Hitler kept throwing planes at them, they were breaking the terms of neutrality.




posted on Oct, 8 2010 @ 03:49 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally

I found this interesting because the swiss have always exempt from war. Why?


They have not. Indeed, Swiss history is pretty bloody and vicious if you take a look at it. What they did is abstain from undertaking wars of conquest or plunder after the boondoggle at Marignano in 1515. But that didn't spare Switzerland from war or invasion - just ask Napoleon who actually conquered Switzerland. For god's sake Suvorov fought the French on the Alps. Switzerland was not exempt from war. They just stopped attacking other states comparatively earlier than other European nations.



Who knows. But its strange that any nation would be given immunity from being conquered, by the Nazis for instance.


There was no immunity. The Nazis planned to invade Switzerland in 1942, It was called Operation Tannenbaum. Luckily, the failure of Operation Taifun at the gates of Moscow in 1941 nixed those plans. There was no need to invade anyway - the Nazis got everything from the Swiss (in an economic sense) that they desired. Conquering Switzerland was strategically and economically not advisable as it would have added german liabilities while not adding any new capabilty (as I said there was almost full economic cooperation). The Wehrmacht thought of conquering Switzerland as unnecessary, Tannenbaum was more a brainchild of the Ideologes, especially Hitler who talked about Swiss people as "abtrünnige Deutsche"....



And than i also thought, isnt it strange that the vatican has swiss guards for security? whats the significance of the swiss and switzerland that they deserve such prestige??


"Swiss" forces first systematized and implemented a revolutionary new military tactic in the late middle ages. This gave them a formidable reputation and made them an effective force. Once the neutralist policy described above kicked in, the ressource and grain base of "Switzerland" could not be expanded by plunder anymore so there was nothing to eat and no potential employment in campaigns for the surplus male populace. Also there was no industry and no raw material basis in Switzerland to swallow them. So they hired themselves to foreign militaries (a very common thing in the Renaissance) as mercenaries, thereby exporting their unique way of fighting throughout Europe and therefore contributing to the demise of the armed cavalry. Eventually the Swiss got such a good reputation as mercenaries that the Pope thought it wise to hire their expertise in order to make war, and out of that relationship the swiss guard at the Vatican was born. Eventually their use was limited merely to provide security - a service that other, institutionally not connected "Swiss guards" all over Europe provided. When the French masses stormed the Tuileries during the Revolution it was a Swiss guard that was massacred while defending.



Than i looked up Switzerland and amazingly i discovered that switzerland is broken up into 26 cantors. 26 is the gematria of G-ds essential name, and would correspond perfectly to Jungs statement that Switzerland is the heart of europe and 4 rivers surround switerland. In the same way, YHVH is the essential reality before he issues fortb (rivers) and gives expression to create his universe.


Then again, the number of Swiss "cantons" has varied since the creation of the first confederacy in 1291 and it wasn't even kept steady after inception of the modern Swiss state in 1848. I guess if 26 was such an important symbol they would have implented it a bit earlier than the 1970's - and they wouldn't have plans to change the number again as soon as the majority is there for a remodeling (pretty soon, as polls indicate).

Problem with the number theory is that the people choose the number of cantons ultimately, not some bureaucrat, so it's really not controllable.



posted on Oct, 8 2010 @ 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Besides they hardly stay out of warfare. Every one of the Allies had a spy network in situ, that was why Hitler kept throwing planes at them, they were breaking the terms of neutrality.


Everyone, not just the Allies, had Spies in Switzerland - especially the Germans. It's not really as if Switzerland was a haven only for Allied secret ops. Also for the Axis. So that can't really be the reason for "hitting them with planes" - something that stopped by his order relatively short after Tannenbaum was nixed. This was not really an "air-war" but more something like border skirmishes. If the Germans really would have wanted to strike the Swiss Air Force they could have completely destroyed it in some days....

As I wrote in an earlier post Hitler - like on so many other subjects - talked like he really wanted to invade Switzerland but when time came to decide about it he hesitated and eventually gave all forces free for the eastern theatre, a move that saved the eastern front from completely collapsing as early as 1942.



posted on Oct, 8 2010 @ 04:45 PM
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Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin
As I wrote in an earlier post Hitler - like on so many other subjects - talked like he really wanted to invade Switzerland but when time came to decide about it he hesitated and eventually gave all forces free for the eastern theatre, a move that saved the eastern front from completely collapsing as early as 1942.


Yeah, but... I don't disagree with a word you say, but look at Operation Sunrise. What do you reckon? Hitler didn't understand the game he was playing, that is why they feared he would order his army to retreat into Switzerland. Hitler thought this was a battle to the death. And it was for ideology, but gladly since his, through might, had won, the new soma was to be consumerism and the corporation king. But they did back every side, so you know, hedging their bets, they won fair and square. So Switzerland was where the money passed through, and Sweden of course. Back and forth. Spain helped. Free trade held it's own though, so don't give up yet, we're still fighting the war, that battle was not completely lost.
edit on 8-10-2010 by KilgoreTrout because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 8 2010 @ 06:36 PM
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Originally posted by CIAGypsy
I only have a second to post before I head out the door...but I had to post. Again, you make a lot of assumptions about what I know or don't know. You seem to keep making this insinuation that I don't know Hebrew or haven't studied other texts (such as Talmud, etc...). I don't know why you feel the compulsion to make these statements when you have NO IDEA whether they are true or not unless you have made ASSUMPTIONS. However, they would be FALSE assumptions.

I'm hoping to take a half day off of work tomorrow and hope to finally have time to fully respond to your ridiculous and pompous statements.


Why?

because Talmud takes YEARS to study.

Also, to Study Talmud requires a teacher. Reading the Talmud in translation (from the aramaic) or even reading Talmud without the formal method to go about it, means pretty much nothing.

True, i dont know anything about you. But, i have noted earlier that you used 'sephira' singular in referance to the complete array, which are called 'sefirot'.

The fact you even made this mistake to me is unconsciounable for someone who Reads Hebrew. Learning Hebrew is no simple matter. It requires years of assiduous study and exposure to hundreds of different texts. If youve gone thus far, and have thus gained the ability to read Hebrew, than referring to sefirot in the plural as "sefirah" would be as abormal as claiming to be fluent in english and saying "do you knowledge what i mean"? This may seem like a little mistake but to me suggested something about you. If im wrong, prove me wrong. Right a transliterated statement in Hebrew of how you think im acting.

I also cant figure out what you found arrogant about my previous post. Im explaing to you the route taken by Orthodox(traditional) Jews before theyre deemed spiritually prepared to take on the mysteries of kabbalah. The Adamic fall signified a decent of the spirit into matter, or, conversely, the awareness of a complete unity being tarnished by "doubt" and "falsehood". The Tree of good and evil signifies this. Since this fall, mankind is unable to know intuitively whats right or wrong (according to Jewish thought) and therefore requires instruction (Torah). Our consciousness has descended into this deluded reality. Just as Ada, ate a fruit which became INTERNALIZED within him, so to us. Each of us has the residue of the tree of evil, which is the source of confusion, doubt in our souls. And nobody can rise above that on his own. we are all apart of the same universal consciousness. The original state can and will only be attained in the messianic era when man will once again learn everything about G-ds creation from the stars, sky, rivers, animals etc. But till than, we need Laws, rules, ordinances, Torah. Even Gentiles are required by Talmud to honor teh 7 laws of Noach - which are basic ethical principles said to have been handed over to Noah in the form of the rainbow (with its 7 colours).

So, in order to clarify the mind the pupil first studies Talmud, which is filled with layers upon layers of meaning (and aswell has kabbalistic meaning) but whose singular purpose is to refine mans power of reasoning according to Torah.

Personally, i havent even got through the entire babylonian Talmud. Its LONG and it requires a great deal of study and painstaking yet riveting analysis of the abstruse discussions between the sages., so, i think its reasonable of me to assume that you havent studied Talmud. Nor am i saying you have to, being a non Jew its not required of you. If you want to study kabbalah, be my guest. Im not trying to demean you either. You may have a great deal of knowledge, much more than myself, of the western esoteric tradition. My main area of study is Judaism, and Kabbalah enters this. I personally have over 100 books on the subject, and yet that is absolutely NOTHING compared to a real Torah library. My measly 100 is eclipsed by the thousands of texts, commentaries and super commentaries of a recondite Torah sage.

Back to the point and focus of our argument. You said my examination and correlation of the sefirot and the continents was ridiculous.

It wasnt I who wrote this, but one of the most learned sages of kabbalah alive today. And most if not all educated Rabbis and "kabbalists" would agree with it.

I dont know what you found "subjective" about it. By definition, objectivity is proven by evidence. If the available objectiive evidence contradicts the assertion, than it can be deemed "subjective". But given the concept - that is, the sefirah, demonstrates particular qualities (as kabbalistic literature explains) and its these qualities which make the "sefirot" - therefore by THEORY, kabbalistic theory, all of creation is based on this sefirotic structure. Thus, the correlate to Wisdom on earth is the pacific oceans. I already described the similarities. Binah, Atlantic and so on.

I think Rabbi Ginsburgh is an absolute genius. In addition to being a mathematician, hes one of those most succesful authors of kabbalah and an innovator of Torah and kabbalistic structures. Hes incredibly qualified, and as his reputation shows, succesful with making connections between modern mans understanding of the world, and Kabbalah - which is the eternal science.



posted on Oct, 8 2010 @ 06:39 PM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


I really like you dontreally, love the enthusiasm, but your needle is stuck.

Sort it out.



posted on Oct, 9 2010 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
reply to post by dontreally
 


I really like you dontreally, love the enthusiasm, but your needle is stuck.

Sort it out.



Ive never heard that metaphor before...

In anycase, i was simply parotting an insight i learned from a learned Torah scholar.

I find it objective, and if you dont find it objective, id like to know on what complicated grounds you think that.

Kabbalah posits that all reality is based on a divine pattern - the 10 sefirot. EVERY reality we experience is an expression of this structure. Hermetic philosophy posits the same idea, albeit less explicit. "as above, so below". This is what ritual is based on. The physical is a container, reflection of the spiritual content it represents.



posted on Oct, 9 2010 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally
Ive never heard that metaphor before...


Most likely because of your youth.


Originally posted by dontreally
In anycase, i was simply parotting an insight i learned from a learned Torah scholar.


Which is probably why I couldn't follow...it all sounded very complicated and I found myself skimming towards the end. I think I'm interested, but you haven't quite managed to hook me.


Originally posted by dontreally
I find it objective, and if you dont find it objective, id like to know on what complicated grounds you think that.


I don't understand it, I can't say anything about it. Not one thing, it is completely foreign to me, I get the same repellence of understanding that I get when I see mathematical equations. Alot of religious texts do that for me, I have to work my way around them in other ways.


Originally posted by dontreally
Kabbalah posits that all reality is based on a divine pattern - the 10 sefirot. EVERY reality we experience is an expression of this structure. Hermetic philosophy posits the same idea, albeit less explicit. "as above, so below". This is what ritual is based on. The physical is a container, reflection of the spiritual content it represents.


Hmmm...it is suitably molecular in structure I suppose. I don't know, again you're talking religious-ese and I don't understand that language. I don't have any rituals as such, if I'm forced to, I may, if I can really be bothered, try and relax but it is not in my nature really. The closest I come to ritual is using the I Ching, and that is when I make an effort to relax, but that is all any ritual should be, getting cosy enough to let your mind focus. But I do think that you are right about the last bit, though I'm not entirely sure still about the spiritual aspect. I'm more of a real ale girl, which is how I get to dance with Dionysus. He speaks my language you see.
edit on 9-10-2010 by KilgoreTrout because: Grammar...spelling...not functioning on all cyclinders



posted on Oct, 9 2010 @ 05:25 PM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by dontreally
Ive never heard that metaphor before...


Most likely because of your youth.


Originally posted by dontreally
In anycase, i was simply parotting an insight i learned from a learned Torah scholar.


Which is probably why I couldn't follow...it all sounded very complicated and I found myself skimming towards the end. I think I'm interested, but you haven't quite managed to hook me.


Originally posted by dontreally
I find it objective, and if you dont find it objective, id like to know on what complicated grounds you think that.


I don't understand it, I can't say anything about it. Not one thing, it is completely foreign to me, I get the same repellence of understanding that I get when I see mathematical equations. Alot of religious texts do that for me, I have to work my way around them in other ways.


Originally posted by dontreally
Kabbalah posits that all reality is based on a divine pattern - the 10 sefirot. EVERY reality we experience is an expression of this structure. Hermetic philosophy posits the same idea, albeit less explicit. "as above, so below". This is what ritual is based on. The physical is a container, reflection of the spiritual content it represents.


Hmmm...it is suitably molecular in structure I suppose. I don't know, again you're talking religious-ese and I don't understand that language. I don't have any rituals as such, if I'm forced to, I may, if I can really be bothered, try and relax but it is not in my nature really. The closest I come to ritual is using the I Ching, and that is when I make an effort to relax, but that is all any ritual should be, getting cosy enough to let your mind focus. But I do think that you are right about the last bit, though I'm not entirely sure still about the spiritual aspect. I'm more of a real ale girl, which is how I get to dance with Dionysus. He speaks my language you see.
edit on 9-10-2010 by KilgoreTrout because: Grammar...spelling...not functioning on all cyclinders


Thats the whole thing.

I was reading an interesting article a few days back comparing the dancing of David To Dionysus.

The former is done within a system of order, and the latter in Disorder - a complete contempt for any order, bounds, limitations.

So its no surprise you fail to appreciate the order kabbalah posits. In you very being you seek the dioysian experience and therefore fail to see the obvious order the knowledge of the sefirot seeks to reveal.



posted on Oct, 9 2010 @ 05:29 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally
Thats the whole thing.

I was reading an interesting article a few days back comparing the dancing of David To Dionysus.

The former is done within a system of order, and the latter in Disorder - a complete contempt for any order, bounds, limitations.

So its no surprise you fail to appreciate the order kabbalah posits. In you very being you seek the dioysian experience and therefore fail to see the obvious order the knowledge of the sefirot seeks to reveal.


No, I don't do homogeny, only alchemy.

I should perhaps have pointed out that I don't have any feeling of soul and don't seek one. But I do have a sense of connectivity, and also of holding onto something too tightly. These two things, particularly, I find create a physical conflict within me, but only at certain times. I use Dionysus figuratively. Jung was helpful, but only in the clarity of his own self-exploration. Psycho-analysis should be guided only by someone who has first been thoroughly 'purged' themselves, both Jung and Freud projected onto their patients and the masses, because they hadn't. I find my answers in lots of different places. Dionysus is just a tool I use to enter into the creative aspect that allows me to communicate them.
edit on 9-10-2010 by KilgoreTrout because: To explain a bit more.



posted on Oct, 9 2010 @ 09:20 PM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by dontreally
Thats the whole thing.

I was reading an interesting article a few days back comparing the dancing of David To Dionysus.

The former is done within a system of order, and the latter in Disorder - a complete contempt for any order, bounds, limitations.

So its no surprise you fail to appreciate the order kabbalah posits. In you very being you seek the dioysian experience and therefore fail to see the obvious order the knowledge of the sefirot seeks to reveal.


No, I don't do homogeny, only alchemy.

I should perhaps have pointed out that I don't have any feeling of soul and don't seek one. But I do have a sense of connectivity, and also of holding onto something too tightly. These two things, particularly, I find create a physical conflict within me, but only at certain times. I use Dionysus figuratively. Jung was helpful, but only in the clarity of his own self-exploration. Psycho-analysis should be guided only by someone who has first been thoroughly 'purged' themselves, both Jung and Freud projected onto their patients and the masses, because they hadn't. I find my answers in lots of different places. Dionysus is just a tool I use to enter into the creative aspect that allows me to communicate them.
edit on 9-10-2010 by KilgoreTrout because: To explain a bit more.


Thats exactly what i meant by mentioning Dionysus.

They merely represent a paradigm. Dionysus the greek "god" and god in every sense of the term. As Jung mentions, archetypes, dionysus being a symbol for a particular kind, possess an actual numinosity and individuality. its indivuduality is in the specfici nature it manifests. So, the 'fool' archetype, dionysus, Bachuss Krishna etc, symbolize a sort of 'connectivity' as you described it. Its the element which connects you to a particular psychological state. This numinous structure is strengthened on the basis of a psychic vitality that Human beinga provide for it. The more attention its given, the more individuality and 'specialness' its accorded, and the more it manifests a particular 'magical' quality to the person who relates with it.

David symbolizes frenetic joy within the confines of a system of order. David does not dance as Dionysus does, that is, according to a system of disorder, boundlessness, and essentially indulgence in the physical appetities. Dionysus is crazed - out of control, of his wits. David is divinely inspired where his pure joy in the source which constantly creates him is expressed in the deepest way - the body, which has hitherto obstructed the expression of his spiritual soul, is now used as the very vehicle to reveal his soul. The body dances for the sake of the self, the soul.

you can ascribe any language you want to the spirit. Call it mind, psyche, mental the fact that it exists as something OTHER than the physical indicates it being a completely different dimension. The mind exists, and because this connection, this mindfulness reveals and opens man up to a more sacred relationship with this feeling of wholeness, this higher 'self' which transcends his attitudes, beliefs that man decides to speak of it in a sacred manner.

The major difference between David and Dionysus, is that one appreciates the value and godliness of Order, whereas the other is nihilistic, emotionally inflamed and most comfortable in a state of disorder.

This is why Jews worshipped the creator - the pre cause of all reality, sum total of human experience and sum total of all we sense to exist. But also beyond this aswell. It a power which relates to mankind in a personal way because of his unique role in creation. Man was created last - on the 6th day. This indicates that man was the PURPOSE of creation. Everything else had to be prepared, world, waters, trees, plants, animals before G-d could place man in the garden (the physical world). The entire Jewish spiritual tradition, like other religions, employ metaphor throughout. Everytime you come by a mention of an apple, or a tree, or anything you see, its main meaning is not in the item itself, but in the concept which imbues that item with existence. As i said earlier, the physical is merely an expression, representation, reflection of the spiritual content which enlivens it. So the Torah speaks in the most deep possible way. Jews consider their relationship to the world as very sacred. As do many Easterners, and others who are deeply involved at a level of holiness, between themselves and the reality around them.

BTW - you have a soul. Your self is your soul. Its that which you turn to when you sleep, and that which you get to know when you die.

As you can see, the creator placed morality on a pedistal for a reason. Its the essential purpose, Test for our lives. We live in this world, tested with moral choices - tested with what we value. Are we wise? will we see the obvious signs that negatvie behavior towards others and self invariably ends up in suffering? Kabbalah teaches that in the next world the soul experiences the true range of his physical decisions in life - in action, speech and thought. Those decisions that were in concord with the essential nature of the soul - which is wholistic, would reveals its source. One who acknowledges his source therefore experiences his source. This physical body obstructs the experience of it. The more spiritually evolved you are, the deeper the appreciation. But the real joy comes when you return to a pure spiritual existence.

Think of it this way. Kabbalah explains that physical reality and spiritual reality are reflected in mans being. The highest levels down to the lowest. The highest level man can know is called Keter. Keter means crown - and just as a crown is on top of the head, outside the body, so to WILL - the power to choose, is above mans ability to comprhend (outside his head - encompassing like a crown). Beyond WILL there is nothing else. But, kabbalah knows there is one sublte level before desire, and thats pleasure. We act, because we ultimately desire pleasure. But, pleasure is that secret essence from which desire swells from. It might sound cyclical but you can see that the former is the cause of the latter.

So, just as pleasure and desire precede consciousness, so to does G-ds pleasure and desire, or understood differently, the awareness of unity between parts, namely, man who is made in microcosm of a greater order.

This is a difficult concept to explain, but easy to undertsand when experienced. Pleasure is singular and simple. Likewise, the pure unity of reality. This awareness of pure unity results in a natural pleasure in it. Therefore, actions, speech and thought which reflected this awarness in life are experienced as extravagantly pleasureful for the soul when its without a body. It is pure heaven. The kabbalists also discuss of two levels of this 'heaven experience' One is more abstract whereas the other is associated with physicality, that is, borrows physicality to express this pleasure. This is often referred to as an astral realm. There is also hell. action, speech and thought (the 3 garments of the souls expression) which reflected a disunity, produces a feeling of profound guilt, shame and confusion for the soul. It is being bombarded, in a way more chaotic and painful than anything understood in this life by the images of its own creation. The negative forces, accuse, and accuse by inflicting punishments according to the nature of the deed they committed.

So. We live in this lowest world, physicality, whereas our minds are united with the totality of creation. When man thinks thusly physicality serves absolutely no impediment to him. Whereas the man made gods, namely, these archetypes, spiritual reality generated by mans devising, are not REAL - in that they are not the product of G-ds desire, but of mans. Man create his own world, just as G-d is able to, and man dwells in them, as the people of babel built a tower to fight G-d. They too the midrash describes were a loving, caring people who performed good deeds. If thats that case, why was G-d offended? Because they did good to each other, but NOT to their source, their creator. They made him irrelevant and like the virgin birth of christianity suggests, considered themselves separate and unaffected by the creators will. They like those today believe the physical, to be separate. There are two powers, masculine and feminine, one the source, abstract, spiritual, the other passive, condensed, physical. In the mystical experience, G-d is present in the spiritual states one experiences (and in pagan thought G-d is generally accorded different names/titles according to the experience - this being polytheism) and the divine mother beng the nothingness, void, the 'virgin mother' who is unaffected, never 'cohabitting' with the father, but completely separate. This chaos and void gives birth to the 'self', born by the enlightened awareness of spiritual totality, but completely subservient to the mother, Mary (hebrew for bitter - in fact, Mari would mean MY bitterness-. As in the evil within me) These two contrary states produce Jesus - Yeshu "salvation" who is called christos (as dionysus was in greece) who involves within him the sum total of experiential reality. He therefore 'redeems' the world. He allows man to worship both parts of himself, the masculine and feminine.

This is why gnostic christians believe Jesus learned all he did in Egypt, and eventually went eastward to babylon, persia and India...

Conversely, the bad guy in this mythology are the Pharisee, being used here as moses is in the Koran as a symbol for what Freud called the superego. The 'conscience'. The conscience is deemed a murder of the soul, the self..

See what christianity is really talking about? Its definitely and assuredly is not Jewish, but pagan.
This is just a little bit of this idea. Its deep and its entirely logical.
edit on 9-10-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 10 2010 @ 04:57 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally

Thats exactly what i meant by mentioning Dionysus.

They merely represent a paradigm. Dionysus the greek "god" and god in every sense of the term. As Jung mentions, archetypes, dionysus being a symbol for a particular kind, possess an actual numinosity and individuality. its indivuduality is in the specfici nature it manifests. So, the 'fool' archetype, dionysus, Bachuss Krishna etc, symbolize a sort of 'connectivity' as you described it. Its the element which connects you to a particular psychological state. This numinous structure is strengthened on the basis of a psychic vitality that Human beinga provide for it. The more attention its given, the more individuality and 'specialness' its accorded, and the more it manifests a particular 'magical' quality to the person who relates with it.


You are being very presumptious. Jung was wrong. In the case of what Dionysus is to me, that is. He doesn't make feel special, he gives me someone to talk to, I address him and I do all that I do for him. He doesn't need to talk to me, and seldom does. Have you read the Song of Songs? I love the Song of Songs! The Song of Songs, to me, and I am perfectly allowed to have my own opinion on this, is the Sun and the Moon talking of their shared love, Earth and how they search for the traces of one another, forever chasing the other, never quite catching. Dionysus is what brings us together. Literally.


Originally posted by dontreally
David symbolizes frenetic joy within the confines of a system of order. David does not dance as Dionysus does, that is, according to a system of disorder, boundlessness, and essentially indulgence in the physical appetities. Dionysus is crazed - out of control, of his wits. David is divinely inspired where his pure joy in the source which constantly creates him is expressed in the deepest way - the body, which has hitherto obstructed the expression of his spiritual soul, is now used as the very vehicle to reveal his soul. The body dances for the sake of the self, the soul.


In the literal sense, Dionysus is natural order. He is a map in many ways and also a description of creation, and us, or one side at least. The other day at work, I was out in the countryside, and I used part of his map. It took me to magic mushrooms, Psilocybe, I didn't pick them I hasten to add, I just wanted to know if the map worked and it did. The mushrooms I found won't flourish, but they have to get in our way for us to see them, and allow them to find a place to prosper, the places where there is poop. Dionysus wears Ivy around his head, hedera helix, to twist and turn, hence the assumption of a dervish, the dancing wasn't frenzied, later as Bacchus he was given cloven hooves, and I would presume that before Alexander made him in his own image, he was actually represented by a deer or some other animal form. Uric acid is one of the few mediums that spores can be carried in. As Bacchus the fungal emphasis was Yeast, which is why he is paired off with Demetre on Knossos, she bringing Agriculture, him Wine. And then they both get completely mixed up with Jesus...and the rest is history, or lack thereof. We wash our feet before Temple because we must ensure that we don't carry spores into the Bakery, yeast this time, once the holy spirit, 'yeast' has been captured, they didn't want Dionysus to get in. The Wine yeast though is a different matter, that is only semi domesticated.


Originally posted by dontreally
you can ascribe any language you want to the spirit. Call it mind, psyche, mental the fact that it exists as something OTHER than the physical indicates it being a completely different dimension. The mind exists, and because this connection, this mindfulness reveals and opens man up to a more sacred relationship with this feeling of wholeness, this higher 'self' which transcends his attitudes, beliefs that man decides to speak of it in a sacred manner.

The major difference between David and Dionysus, is that one appreciates the value and godliness of Order, whereas the other is nihilistic, emotionally inflamed and most comfortable in a state of disorder.


Ah but which one is which? And when?


Originally posted by dontreally
This is why Jews worshipped the creator - the pre cause of all reality, sum total of human experience and sum total of all we sense to exist. But also beyond this aswell. It a power which relates to mankind in a personal way because of his unique role in creation. Man was created last - on the 6th day. This indicates that man was the PURPOSE of creation. Everything else had to be prepared, world, waters, trees, plants, animals before G-d could place man in the garden (the physical world). The entire Jewish spiritual tradition, like other religions, employ metaphor throughout. Everytime you come by a mention of an apple, or a tree, or anything you see, its main meaning is not in the item itself, but in the concept which imbues that item with existence. As i said earlier, the physical is merely an expression, representation, reflection of the spiritual content which enlivens it. So the Torah speaks in the most deep possible way. Jews consider their relationship to the world as very sacred. As do many Easterners, and others who are deeply involved at a level of holiness, between themselves and the reality around them.


We grew out of the garden like everything else. I haven't read the Torah, just the Old Testament, and I am sure it sounds great in Hebrew, but it is a bunch of really ugly stories in my language. Except the Song of Songs. That is beautiful. The Jews were the first, as far as I can interpret, to pop their god in a box and carry it before them into battle. They are the pastorialist afterall, they invented sheep.


Originally posted by dontreally
BTW - you have a soul. Your self is your soul. Its that which you turn to when you sleep, and that which you get to know when you die.


As good a possibility as any of the others. Though of late new ones have come to mind that are just beyond what my imagination is yet capable of rationalising.


Originally posted by dontreally
As you can see, the creator placed morality on a pedistal for a reason. Its the essential purpose, Test for our lives. We live in this world, tested with moral choices - tested with what we value. Are we wise? will we see the obvious signs that negatvie behavior towards others and self invariably ends up in suffering? Kabbalah teaches that in the next world the soul experiences the true range of his physical decisions in life - in action, speech and thought. Those decisions that were in concord with the essential nature of the soul - which is wholistic, would reveals its source. One who acknowledges his source therefore experiences his source. This physical body obstructs the experience of it. The more spiritually evolved you are, the deeper the appreciation. But the real joy comes when you return to a pure spiritual existence.


As far as 'laws' go, I find the Four Noble Truths, with a little help when needed from the Eight-Fold Path, to provide all the moral guidance I need. I am able, with that as my spine, so to speak, to do as I wilt. But it is probably the same


Originally posted by dontreally
Think of it this way. Kabbalah explains that physical reality and spiritual reality are reflected in mans being. The highest levels down to the lowest. The highest level man can know is called Keter. Keter means crown - and just as a crown is on top of the head, outside the body, so to WILL - the power to choose, is above mans ability to comprhend (outside his head - encompassing like a crown). Beyond WILL there is nothing else. But, kabbalah knows there is one sublte level before desire, and thats pleasure. We act, because we ultimately desire pleasure. But, pleasure is that secret essence from which desire swells from. It might sound cyclical but you can see that the former is the cause of the latter.


Again, another of Dionysus's forms. Dionysus is also the twice born, born once, then sown back into Zeus. His thigh, but we're talking testes either way. A woman is born mature, as in her eggs are already mature, but the vessel needs further growth in order to ensure that it recieves the best seed, that's what our brain is for if only we had the sense to use it, anyway, look at the gametes and gamete. Males are essentially two lifeforms until they reach adulthood and fuse. Dionysus in his later incarnation, helps us to bring forth our less inhibited self.


Originally posted by dontreally
So, just as pleasure and desire precede consciousness, so to does G-ds pleasure and desire, or understood differently, the awareness of unity between parts, namely, man who is made in microcosm of a greater order.


I agree, but differently. And only if I understand you correctly.


Originally posted by dontreally
This is a difficult concept to explain, but easy to undertsand when experienced. Pleasure is singular and simple. Likewise, the pure unity of reality. This awareness of pure unity results in a natural pleasure in it. Therefore, actions, speech and thought which reflected this awarness in life are experienced as extravagantly pleasureful for the soul when its without a body. It is pure heaven. The kabbalists also discuss of two levels of this 'heaven experience' One is more abstract whereas the other is associated with physicality, that is, borrows physicality to express this pleasure. This is often referred to as an astral realm. There is also hell. action, speech and thought (the 3 garments of the souls expression) which reflected a disunity, produces a feeling of profound guilt, shame and confusion for the soul. It is being bombarded, in a way more chaotic and painful than anything understood in this life by the images of its own creation. The negative forces, accuse, and accuse by inflicting punishments according to the nature of the deed they committed.


I'm not in any shape or form a Buddhist, and could incidently never been one, I love to look at yellow but I always feel absolutely miserable if I am made to wear it...anyway...I do like the way they talk, 'There is no path to happiness, happiness is the path.' I agree with you entirely, there is nothing more burdensome to a persons being that guilt, shame and confusion, that is why I believe in psychotherapy, confession, ranting, shouting screaming and just getting those problems off your chest and out into the open where they can be dealt with. The negative force can only be faced if it is brought out into the open to be vanquished.


Originally posted by dontreally
So. We live in this lowest world, physicality, whereas our minds are united with the totality of creation. When man thinks thusly physicality serves absolutely no impediment to him. Whereas the man made gods, namely, these archetypes, spiritual reality generated by mans devising, are not REAL - in that they are not the product of G-ds desire, but of mans. Man create his own world, just as G-d is able to, and man dwells in them, as the people of babel built a tower to fight G-d. They too the midrash describes were a loving, caring people who performed good deeds. If thats that case, why was G-d offended? Because they did good to each other, but NOT to their source, their creator. They made him irrelevant and like the virgin birth of christianity suggests, considered themselves separate and unaffected by the creators will. They like those today believe the physical, to be separate. There are two powers, masculine and feminine, one the source, abstract, spiritual, the other passive, condensed, physical. In the mystical experience, G-d is present in the spiritual states one experiences (and in pagan thought G-d is generally accorded different names/titles according to the experience - this being polytheism) and the divine mother beng the nothingness, void, the 'virgin mother' who is unaffected, never 'cohabitting' with the father, but completely separate. This chaos and void gives birth to the 'self', born by the enlightened awareness of spiritual totality, but completely subservient to the mother, Mary (hebrew for bitter - in fact, Mari would mean MY bitterness-. As in the evil within me) These two contrary states produce Jesus - Yeshu "salvation" who is called christos (as dionysus was in greece) who involves within him the sum total of experiential reality. He therefore 'redeems' the world. He allows man to worship both parts of himself, the masculine and feminine.


The Virgin Birth or Immaculate Conception, is how life works. One cell divides and becomes two daughter cells. I have only recently started address this issue and it is buried very deep. I have found China seems to have some traces of it in their story telling that make more sense, especially given that the value of 1 in Chinese mathematics is 3. That's a big clue. But it naturally means that the Universe has a twin. Most likely equal and opposite. And with a primordial force of some kind to keep things going round.


Originally posted by dontreally
This is why gnostic christians believe Jesus learned all he did in Egypt, and eventually went eastward to babylon, persia and India...

Conversely, the bad guy in this mythology are the Pharisee, being used here as moses is in the Koran as a symbol for what Freud called the superego. The 'conscience'. The conscience is deemed a murder of the soul, the self..

See what christianity is really talking about? Its definitely and assuredly is not Jewish, but pagan.
This is just a little bit of this idea. Its deep and its entirely logical.
edit on 9-10-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)


Yup! But so we're the Jews, before they were domesticated.



posted on Oct, 11 2010 @ 12:44 AM
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You are being very presumptious. Jung was wrong. In the case of what Dionysus is to me, that is. He doesn't make feel special, he gives me someone to talk to, I address him and I do all that I do for him. He doesn't need to talk to me, and seldom does. Have you read the Song of Songs? I love the Song of Songs! The Song of Songs, to me, and I am perfectly allowed to have my own opinion on this, is the Sun and the Moon talking of their shared love, Earth and how they search for the traces of one another, forever chasing the other, never quite catching. Dionysus is what brings us together. Literally.


lol. I can appreciate your view on the subject. Afterall, were all allowed to make our own decisions and live
with them. Thats the power of free will that the creator has imbued us with. I have read the song of songs. I read the Tanakh 3 hours a day, apart of my daily regiment. Ive read song of songs plenty of times. The ACTUAL meaning, although your free to ascribe your own meaning to it, is an amorous description of the union between the masculine and feminine forces. Or, more specifically, THE masculine force, G-d, creator and sustainer of all reality, and his indwelling presence, which can only be united with him when mankind unites to serve him. This indwelling presence is termed "shekina" lit. to indwell. Whereas pagans speak of the universal man - what kabbalah calls Adam kadmon, they regard as the masculine. Of course they acknowledge an infinite source, creator. But hes irrelevant, not apart of creation. He is gone. We are considered the actors in his divine drama - and this is all the attention he gets. Anyways, physicality, matter, is considered the feminine, and this divine man the masculine. This is the interplay you describe. The sun, moon. etc. But kabbalah goes a step into the beyond. We START at the level of adam kadmon, the incepience of creation, and its this which is the feminine, and the masculine is the ineffable source, the Ayin Sof, which chooses to reveal his transcendent level to man through the divine name YHVH. Note that the ein sof and YHVH are not the same. YHVH is like a specific window that G-d created to look out at his creation. No created thing can connect with the creator, without being completely sublimated and absorbed by it.This relationship between the shekina and the creator is the mystical meaning behind Solomons Beautiful song of songs. Im acquainted with the Greek misappropriation of this story. The mistake the sexual language as meaning something course, raw and physically sexual. True. Solomon sdid not shy away from the reality that the union between opposites is reflected in the human act of sex, and its described that way cause it really is a beautiful experience. But, just as only two parties are involed, it should always stay that way. No other partners. The level being cultivated between man and women is eternal. One partner - which in itself is meant to interweave the souls of both parties. You cant mantain that connection if your sleeping with other people. So This is just to get away from the conventional greek view of sexual liberality. Every word spoken by solomon and every description made of the sexual act actually alludes to particular levels within the divine 'man'. The shekina, the indwelling presence, the created reality, the 'univeral self' is united with the infinite. Her breasts refer to a specific level in the stature of the divine man. Lurianic kabbalah contains the secret to this idea.



In the literal sense, Dionysus is natural order. He is a map in many ways and also a description of creation, and us, or one side at least. The other day at work, I was out in the countryside, and I used part of his map. It took me to magic mushrooms, Psilocybe, I didn't pick them I hasten to add, I just wanted to know if the map worked and it did. The mushrooms I found won't flourish, but they have to get in our way for us to see them, and allow them to find a place to prosper, the places where there is poop. Dionysus wears Ivy around his head, hedera helix, to twist and turn, hence the assumption of a dervish, the dancing wasn't frenzied, later as Bacchus he was given cloven hooves, and I would presume that before Alexander made him in his own image, he was actually represented by a deer or some other animal form. Uric acid is one of the few mediums that spores can be carried in. As Bacchus the fungal emphasis was Yeast, which is why he is paired off with Demetre on Knossos, she bringing Agriculture, him Wine. And then they both get completely mixed up with Jesus...and the rest is history, or lack thereof. We wash our feet before Temple because we must ensure that we don't carry spores into the Bakery, yeast this time, once the holy spirit, 'yeast' has been captured, they didn't want Dionysus to get in. The Wine yeast though is a different matter, that is only semi domesticated.


Interesting. Didnt know greek myth was so alchemical. And Dionysus isnt quite the natural order. Not in how euripides describes it in the bacchae. Dionysos is ANTI order. Nature is full of order. For instance, the disintictions between male and female. How do you resolve the homosexual strain than involved in the worship of dionysus?


Ah but which one is which? And when?

When is the dancing of dionysus experienced as opposed to David? Well. When you order matters in ways that Judaism does. For instance, if your interested in a forgeign experience, check out chassidic dancing. A major feature of chassidic dancing is dance circles. The circle signifies simplicity and equality between parts. This is what Judaism is about. Everyone is held by the same standards, laws of conduct - the same Torah. Chassidic dancing is very enthusiastic and energetic, and you can really see the holy joy which these people experience in connecting to G-d through dance. Also, Jewish dancing is supplemented by wine; yet another item connecting it to the cult of dionysus. But, there is a limit to drinking, whereas in Dionysian festivals the whole point is to go BEYOND limits, constraints, social norms - this is how you engage the body, or the 'spirit' of the body.



We grew out of the garden like everything else. I haven't read the Torah, just the Old Testament, and I am sure it sounds great in Hebrew, but it is a bunch of really ugly stories in my language. Except the Song of Songs. That is beautiful. The Jews were the first, as far as I can interpret, to pop their god in a box and carry it before them into battle. They are the pastorialist afterall, they invented sheep.

The ark of the covenant is actually a pretty deep idea. The world is usually stylized as a cube. 3 dimensional reality is basically made up of 12 lines. The cube thus symbolizes reality. The 12 lines are imagined as being unified by a center point, which unites its 12 parts (these 12 also correspond to the 12 constellations). 13 is the gematria of the Hebrew word for 1. This is also the gematria of Love - Ahava. Is this not very mystical? Love is the feeling of oneness. Love is the unification of parts.



As far as 'laws' go, I find the Four Noble Truths, with a little help when needed from the Eight-Fold Path, to provide all the moral guidance I need. I am able, with that as my spine, so to speak, to do as I wilt. But it is probably the same


I cant figure out why people quote Aleister Crowley, nietszche. These were men who died mentally broken. Nietszche went insane, and crowley became addicted to heroin. These are not role models. I dont have a problem persay with Buddhisms 4 noble truths or the 8 fold path. But, there is one fundamental porlbem to it. It suggests that man is capable of forming his own morals truths. This in essence tolerates a moral relativity. Thus, without an objective moral code, a law by which all people are subject to live by, you'll have one person who thinks one way, another who thinks in a completely contradictive way. What if my morality conflicts with yours. How do we resolve this moral conundrum now? This discrepenancy in itself reveals the inherent human reliance on a homogenous moral code. In Judaism theyre called the 7 laws of Noah.

In the beginning, G-d wanted man to know him through nature. But since man fell, his mind fell into a world of duality, the apple of the tree of good and evil became internalized. Keep in mind that adam represents every-man. Hes the universal mind. This universal conscious FELL. Do you know what that means? It means that any part within the whole is subject to the overall condition of the whole. The whole is fragemented, riddled with falsehood, confusions, doubt. This is a world, a reality, which has spawned with the fall of man and appears to be reaching it climax. So. No mystic can ever reach a state of complete moral certainity. Its simpyl impossible. Therefore, were subject to a law - the 10 commandments being a good example of it, and if you dont respect this objective law which most human beings have been taught, than your held liable. You have the knowledge.



Again, another of Dionysus's forms. Dionysus is also the twice born, born once, then sown back into Zeus. His thigh, but we're talking testes either way. A woman is born mature, as in her eggs are already mature, but the vessel needs further growth in order to ensure that it recieves the best seed, that's what our brain is for if only we had the sense to use it, anyway, look at the gametes and gamete. Males are essentially two lifeforms until they reach adulthood and fuse. Dionysus in his later incarnation, helps us to bring forth our less inhibited self.


funny that you mention the thigh. Jacob the kabbalists note was the rectification of Adam, which is why he was granted the privelege of generated the Jewish people, the 12 tribes(which came to repair the cosmos. The universal man, jacob, spliced into 12 parts, the 12 aspects of the lower spiritual worlds). Jacob fought Esaus angel, which, the sages note, was Samael - or satan. Samael struck Jacob in his thigh, his left thigh and left him permanently injured. The left thight kabbalistically refers to Hod. Hod means 'acknowledgement'. The lower triad of Netzach, Hod, and Yesod are OUTER focused spiritual powers. They bring the level of Chesed, Gevurah, Tiferet out to the external world and its reality. Netzach seeks to dominate the outer world. This is why some commentators refer to the right thigh as being the injured thigh. People seek to DOMINATE others. This is where mans spiritual problem lies. But the root cause of this power to seek to dominate is a lack of awareness, knowledge and SENSITIVITY to other people. This is hod. Instead of wanting to dominate, Hod seeks to empathize/sympathize with others.. Thus, people seek to dominate because people lack a fundamental sensitivity to the spiritual reality of their fellow spiritual brothers and sisters (after all, were all from the same source, the same pool of consciousness. How can we betray this truth and hurt one another? This is why evil people go to hell. Punishment for having injured an aspect of their own SELF. As corny as it sounds, in truth we are all one.). So. The thigh being referred to here in dionysus definitely has sexual undertones. But the REAL idea is one that is the ESSENCE of the worship of Dionysus. Domination. Dionysus seeks to dominate all limitations, boundaries, rules. Its a pure release of the will to dominate. That is the ESSENCE of dionysian consciousness. And Zeus? Is there a difference between Dionysus and Jesus? Jesus is the son of G-d, Dionysus the thigh of Zeus? Theres a very deep connection here. Zeus is the Greek representation of the Jewish G-d (hence a temple to jupiter was erected after the 2nd temple was destroyed). Dionysus being sown into his father Zeus' thigh signifies an integration and emphasis of a spiritual concept within the fabric of the universe. The concept is the human desire to dominate, SPECIFICALLY against G-d.



I'm not in any shape or form a Buddhist, and could incidently never been one, I love to look at yellow but I always feel absolutely miserable if I am made to wear it...anyway...I do like the way they talk, 'There is no path to happiness, happiness is the path.' I agree with you entirely, there is nothing more burdensome to a persons being that guilt, shame and confusion, that is why I believe in psychotherapy, confession, ranting, shouting screaming and just getting those problems off your chest and out into the open where they can be dealt with. The negative force can only be faced if it is brought out into the open to be vanquished.


I think we have to be careful HOW we talk about our problems. Just ranting and imagining that thats psychologically helpful has already been proven in clinical tests to be a false therapeutic method. ranting, yelling, is not healthy. Sure, its let off 'steam', but it also perpetuates the very problem. That is not TRANSMUTING the problem, but recycling it, i feel tense, im gonna yell, give expression to this tension, but the fundamental spiritual issue has not been dealt with. Kabbalistic approach to healing (it should be noted that Jung, Freud, Adler and many others heavily borrowed from the lurianic kabbalah) spiritual pains is through prayer, among other things. The most beneficial way to change yourself is to know deep down that your source of being wants your success in this positive change of self. So, its good to talk about problems when theyre eating at you. How you talk about then should be in a level headed and relaxed way. It should be a 'pouring your heart out' and not a rant. Doing this can often weaken the very reality that while within you, had control, but now that its influence has been exposed, almost as if loses its momentum.




The Virgin Birth or Immaculate Conception, is how life works. One cell divides and becomes two daughter cells. I have only recently started address this issue and it is buried very deep. I have found China seems to have some traces of it in their story telling that make more sense, especially given that the value of 1 in Chinese mathematics is 3. That's a big clue. But it naturally means that the Universe has a twin. Most likely equal and opposite. And with a primordial force of some kind to keep things going round.

Kabbalah talks about a fundamental trinity aswell. Thesis, Antithesis and Synthesis. This is the most basic differentiation of reality we can make. Theres something, theres it opposite, and theres some aspect which mediates the two. But the trinity is only relevant from OUR perspective. Kabbalah and Judaism says theres an ineffable source. Hence the quintessential Jewish expression of faith is "hear oh israel, G-d is our G-d, G-d is one". I

ts very interesting analyzing all the many similarities between the worlds pagan religions. Emphasis on certain numbers is where you tend to find it. 8 is probably the most mentioned. 8 fold path, 8 beatitudes, the 8 sectioned circle at St peters basilica, with an egyptian obelisk in the center. Apollos special number was 8, and echoing a popular eastern idea, his motto was 'moderation in everything'.



Yup! But so we're the Jews, before they were domesticated.


It always entertains me when people imagine that the original israelites were pagan. No. Abraham showed the world that spirituality didnt have to be mutually exclusive as the monks, nuns and leaders taught. The social leaders, the aristocrats shares a fundamental spiritual similarity with the monks and nuns. They both believed that Soul and matter were irreconcilable. In fact, they had to be kept apart at all costs. This is what the monks accomplished by being ascetics. The aristocrats accomplished in another way. Lavan is the paradigm of this in the Torah. His very name "white" implies self righteous surety. People like Lavan separate the soul and spirit by relinquishing the body to the physical, the source of mans lower egocentric side, while the soul is somewhere else. look at lavans actions in the bible. he manipulated Jacob throughout. Read paradise lost. In book 3 towards the end theres a very interesting description of how satan uses subterfuge and deception, a reality unappreciated by those who seek unity, and thus simplicity to get what he wants(Lying is the paradigm of separating the inner from the outer. Thus, all politicians are liars) He thus feigns sincerity towards Uriel in a desire to get knowledge of mankinds location. He is the paradigmatic worshipper of Samael, Satan, Lucifer, Hermes. What Jung termed 'the shadow' or the dark god. This is why Jacob went and studied with Shem and Eber. Shem and Eber were mystics of the Buddhist inclination. Nimrod didnt seek to kill them as he did Abraham (by throwing him in a furnace) because monastics dont threaten the soverign rule of the aristocrats (i have said in earlier psots that our world is ruled by aristocrats - ancestors of the same ones in abrahams generation. They like interbreeding) because monastic pose no threats. "They want to go off to a mountain to meditate? Go ahead. Ill leave you to it. Just dont question my theory of society". Shem and Eber thus taught Jacob a very important lesson. Non Jewish mysticism seeks to separate the worlds of matter and spirit. He went there and learned the wisdom of it. In fact, while there, For 14 years he never slept - as an extreme form of ascetic practice. So, Judaism is about connecting spirit and matter. Mitzvot, commandments, are about this. mitzvot are only relevant to the physical world. Its this world which Judaism seeks to spiritualize, and its because of this noble intention that the Jews have sufferred so much throughout history. The Western aristocrats absolutely revile them. find them completely repugant. Look at history. 3000 thousand years extermination attempts have been made against the Jews!. Nazi Germany were the last ones to attempt it and if you know anything about world war 2 politics you would know that the Americans, British, french and the governments of all european regimes which had Jewish population completely complied with the "nazi" agenda. most amazingly was the role of the vatican, the inheritor of Rome and purveyor of evil in our world. Eugene pacelli later on Pope Pius XII (he ascended to this role the very day WWII started. How coincidental) was the one who penned the 1917 new papal canon which created a top down church heirarchy which gave full powers to the pope. This ended the collegiality between bishops that had existed up to that point in the catholic church. This development in addition to his organizing the papal concordant of 1933 with Hitler - which disbanded the catholic center party, gave full ability to the Nazis to gain the political power they were seeking. And when all was set and in place, The pope never utterred a word throuhout the war. Not with the Jews in Germany and Europe, despite the many protests and calls from ambassadors, critics, and diplomats to denounce the Nazi persecution of Jews. Didnt utter a peep. It took 4 grueling years, millions of Jews killed, before pius made a passing ambiguous statement in one of his encyclicals about the suffering of the "people" in Germany. No mention of Jews, or a call to help them. Germany was HALF catholic. imagine what kind of political power Germanies catholics could have exercized if the pope said something.

Sorry for getting off topic. Theres a deep reason behind antimsemitism, and it certainly isnt the fault of the Jews. Its a difference of social theory you could say. The leaders of our world are preparing us to accept a gnostic philosophy by separating our very selves. Soul from body. This is the 21st century schizoid man in king crimson (and sampled by kanye west today). This is the mold from which man will embrace the philosophical tenets of 'the perennially philosophy' as Huxley called it. This is manipulation in the most grandest imaginable way.

So, before people are even given an ability to choose for themselves what they want, they are being severely handicapped by having both sides of them, the spiritual, contemplative, and the sensual clicked at the same time. Talk about ambivalence. The only way to 'organize' this ambivalence is through recognizing the spirituality posited and championed by people like CG Jung.

Also, in what way did you consider Jung wrong?
edit on 11-10-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-10-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 04:44 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally
lol. I can appreciate your view on the subject. Afterall, were all allowed to make our own decisions and live with them. Thats the power of free will that the creator has imbued us with. I have read the song of songs. I read the Tanakh 3 hours a day, apart of my daily regiment. Ive read song of songs plenty of times.


Perhaps you’ve read it too many times. You don’t seem to feel it, you may be desensitised. That could explain a lot. About your people. Hehe, you could say desensitisation is a general theme of Judaism.


Originally posted by dontreally
The ACTUAL meaning, although your free to ascribe your own meaning to it, is an amorous description of the union between the masculine and feminine forces. Or, more specifically, THE masculine force, G-d, creator and sustainer of all reality, and his indwelling presence, which can only be united with him when mankind unites to serve him. This indwelling presence is termed "shekina" lit. to indwell.


There is no ACTUAL meaning, the reason why The Song of Songs sticks out like a sore thumb is because it is written by an artist. Or two. Nothing else in the Bible, new or old, even comes close to touching it. And, as a true piece of art, it’s meaning is manifold. In part, like Dionysus, it is a map, a very complex one that I haven’t fully deciphered, inter woven is the story of creation, and more still the realisation and consummation of the love that is creation, and many other things besides that my mind is not yet capable of processing. It is though, in it’s simplicity a love poem. Sex, in this form, is an act of love, no more or less, it is your mind that denigrates it, not mine.

So, in this poem, we have two very distinct, and equal voices. Male and Female. Though I am open minded to your actual interpretation/meaning, you’re not doing such a good job of selling it. Show me, how do I see it as you see it? The only possible explanation that I can see is that you deny the female, elemental or otherwise, a right to have it’s own voice that compliments that of the male element…and instead assume that the male gives the female a voice. Surely not! Wouldn’t that mean that the Whore of Babylon is the Goddess herself? #, # and bollocks, no wonder your people are cursed, way to go crapping in the hand that feeds you. I mean, seriously!!!!! Good, gosh and golly, I’m really quite shocked at the amazing sense that, well, everything, suddenly makes. My word! Hell, it takes one to know one after all, and although I have never been one, not in this lifetime certainly, I have been called one often enough to wonder what the # that is all about, if you know what I mean, which I doubt very much that you do. # man, you called Mother a whore and you have been spreading the rumour ever since, can you imagine how pissed off Daddy is? I know she’s fuming!


Originally posted by dontreally
Whereas pagans speak of the universal man - what kabbalah calls Adam kadmon, they regard as the masculine. Of course they acknowledge an infinite source, creator. But hes irrelevant, not apart of creation. He is gone. We are considered the actors in his divine drama - and this is all the attention he gets. Anyways, physicality, matter, is considered the feminine, and this divine man the masculine. This is the interplay you describe. The sun, moon. etc. But kabbalah goes a step into the beyond.


No, it is not and does not, it has just been made to look that way, but we shall move on.


Originally posted by dontreally
We START at the level of adam kadmon, the incepience of creation, and its this which is the feminine, and the masculine is the ineffable source, the Ayin Sof, which chooses to reveal his transcendent level to man through the divine name YHVH. Note that the ein sof and YHVH are not the same. YHVH is like a specific window that G-d created to look out at his creation. No created thing can connect with the creator, without being completely sublimated and absorbed by it.


Hence Dionysus’s mother vapourising when she looked upon Zeus in his true form, pure light. These are all just retellings of the same stories, the names are changed, but the source is the same and once you’ve stripped away the accumulated crap, singular. The Jews, were, and no offence meant, just really bad story tellers, no art. I wonder why? Might have something to do with keeping your women barefoot and pregnant, chained to the kitchen sink, but there you go, that’s just my interpretation. I’m very likely quite biased and still smarting from the realisation that you consider all Mother’s to be whores, by nature presumably. I’m deeply, deeply offended by the realisation.

Anyway, I digress ‘off on one’, the Egpytian model as examined by Rene Schwaller de Lubicz (or an arrangement of names to that effect, I can check if you’re that bothered) in the Temple at Luxor, is apparently similar, if more complexly accurate, physiologically, to the more ‘mystical’ one of the Kabbalah. Still male, it is the Temple of Man after all, but it recognises the fundamental connectivity both with the female consort, by showing the phallus erect, and with the Mother (and the Life Force as represented by the erect phallus being the ‘emittor’ of the vital seed), by placing that phallus at the position of the navel, understanding that the Mother also contributes, materially, in the form of sustenance via the umbilical, to the creation, she is more than just vassal. Rene whatisname, posits that there can be absolutely no doubt that the positioning of the phallus at the navel is deliberate and further underscores the level of physiological and medical understanding that the Egyptians possessed, and how, demonstrated in the Temple at Luxor, they applied that to their understanding of the concept of the micro to the macro.

Now, the Jews on the otherhand appear to have formed a unified alliance of Tribes, much like that paralleled in China with the drawing together of factions under the Han banner, and become a force to be reckoned with. Archaelogical evidence suggests that Sumer was seeded in the Persian Gulf and moved, as a force of civilisation or cultural change, inland. That is, the Sumerians were ‘aliens’, most likely displaced peoples from the flooding of the Sunda peninsula, it would appear probable that the Jews were the more ‘backward’ indigenous peoples of the area, whose rapid cultural absorbtion undermined their affinity to their core belief system. I think most of their history was written up ad hoc and it has survived simply from the merit that, like the Freemasons, the Jews are conformists.


Originally posted by dontreally
This relationship between the shekina and the creator is the mystical meaning behind Solomons Beautiful song of songs.


I’ll have to take your word for it.


Originally posted by dontreally
Im acquainted with the Greek misappropriation of this story. The mistake the sexual language as meaning something course, raw and physically sexual. True. Solomon sdid not shy away from the reality that the union between opposites is reflected in the human act of sex, and its described that way cause it really is a beautiful experience. But, just as only two parties are involed, it should always stay that way. No other partners. The level being cultivated between man and women is eternal. One partner - which in itself is meant to interweave the souls of both parties. You cant mantain that connection if your sleeping with other people. So This is just to get away from the conventional greek view of sexual liberality. Every word spoken by solomon and every description made of the sexual act actually alludes to particular levels within the divine 'man'. The shekina, the indwelling presence, the created reality, the 'univeral self' is united with the infinite. Her breasts refer to a specific level in the stature of the divine man. Lurianic kabbalah contains the secret to this idea.


I think you will find, that when a poet of this merit, writes of breasts, he is most definitely writing of breasts. Trust me on that one. It is afterall the breast of a hill, not the hill of a breast, get my meaning..? Otherwise I agree entirely, but then I’m reading a love poem, so I would, wouldn’t I? You’re the one preoccupied with licentious behaviour, not I. Chance’d be a fine thing for one. Time/energy, inclination, a couple of others…

I don’t see how you can claim that the Greeks misappropriated the story, although their elites certainly edited it for the masses. I read a lot of Aesop as a child, the tales are indistinguishable from the parables of Jesus. Is that misappropriation, or is that just keeping the stories alive and retelling them for a new generation?


Originally posted by dontreally
Interesting. Didnt know greek myth was so alchemical. And Dionysus isnt quite the natural order. Not in how euripides describes it in the bacchae.


Wonder why the plays of Euripides are still played in theatres to this very day? Euripides was a wealthy man, he had powerful patrons and those patrons expected their whore to dance to their tune and promote the status quo. Increasingly the mysteries were reserved for the elite, and Dionysus, which brought people together in ‘communion’, primarily at the festival/party to celebrate the bringing in of the grapes and the making of the wine, what is now Pentacost. If you watch Roman Polanski’s Tess, or read any Thomas Hardy for that matter, you can get some idea of what this would have been like, the whole community working together to bring in the harvest followed by a knees up when the hard work was done. Things, in some places, have only very recently changed. When competition, and/or monopoly become a factor it is necessary to promote separatism and to denounce any sense of communal ownership or investment. Euripides was paid to write a play denouncing Dionysus in order to create division and distinction between classes.

There is another, smaller, example of this, in the Greek tale of Phalaris. Now to the hunters of the grasslands phalaris grass is no concern to them, and in fact may have been used as a source of '___' in their shamanic practices, possibly, but to pastoralists, those that own herds of domesticated animals on which they stake their livelihood, phalaris is a menace. So there exists from Ancient Greece, this curious tale of a man called Phalaris, an official of some sort, killed by a bull, most horribly I think. No wonder a threat was issued to some shepherd by his employer if he killed anymore sheep by letting them graze in the marshy spots where phalaris thrives and woven into a story by the day-dreamer errant shepherd. Lying under the stars has that effect on a mind, it conjures it’s silent companions to come alive and find their voice. Dionysus, is like the Song of Songs, and the tale of Phalaris, a means of learning and remembering, by capturing those stories, writing them down and setting ownership on them, the Jews have ceased to progress. Or that is one idea anyway, just my opinion. Each ‘advanced’ culture is the same, but as you have pointed out, it is possibly simply that the Jews were the first to seek a means of homogenising history.


Originally posted by dontreally
Dionysos is ANTI order. Nature is full of order. For instance, the disintictions between male and female. How do you resolve the homosexual strain than involved in the worship of dionysus?


I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean the Hermaphrodite aspect? Self-compatibility? Or do you mean homosexuality in general? Any which way, all perfectly natural. Having men without an instinct for the hunt, that are not interested in the women, is beneficial to the group. Homosexual does not necessarily denote effeminacy or weakness. In martial cultures, the homosexual supplants the camp followers, or whores, and to keep seperateness in situation of occupation whereby assimilation may be a risk. Subordinate males were expected to submit to their superiors, and certainly traditionally, it was a route by which to attain office that would not necessarily be available to you due to humble birth.


Originally posted by dontreally
When is the dancing of dionysus experienced as opposed to David? Well. When you order matters in ways that Judaism does. For instance, if your interested in a forgeign experience, check out chassidic dancing. A major feature of chassidic dancing is dance circles. The circle signifies simplicity and equality between parts. This is what Judaism is about. Everyone is held by the same standards, laws of conduct - the same Torah. Chassidic dancing is very enthusiastic and energetic, and you can really see the holy joy which these people experience in connecting to G-d through dance. Also, Jewish dancing is supplemented by wine; yet another item connecting it to the cult of dionysus. But, there is a limit to drinking, whereas in Dionysian festivals the whole point is to go BEYOND limits, constraints, social norms - this is how you engage the body, or the 'spirit' of the body.


That is your interpretation. You describe the same experience of communion, or community, you are only saying that yours is ‘right’ and the other ‘wrong’, and yet, they are the same. Circle dances, square dances, in, out, shake it all about…dancing, music, laughter and a little drink to bring out the best in us, round out the edges of those squares. One and the same.


Originally posted by dontreally
The ark of the covenant is actually a pretty deep idea. The world is usually stylized as a cube. 3 dimensional reality is basically made up of 12 lines. The cube thus symbolizes reality. The 12 lines are imagined as being unified by a center point, which unites its 12 parts (these 12 also correspond to the 12 constellations). 13 is the gematria of the Hebrew word for 1. This is also the gematria of Love - Ahava. Is this not very mystical? Love is the feeling of oneness. Love is the unification of parts.


Hmmm….where does the cube come into the Ark of the Covenant? That completely contradicts anything ever written about the Ark, unless someone can contradict me, and I mean roughly contemporous, not dreamed up by some Bohemian Mystic in a reaction to the amount of Jews leaving the flock. So to speak. No offence meant, but that is ludicrous and I am appalled that such blatant whitewashing can go so readily unquestioned. Unless I am vastly mistaken…anything pre-Crusades in Jewish literature, or none-Jewish Eurasian, that refers to the Ark as a cube???


Originally posted by dontreally
I cant figure out why people quote Aleister Crowley, nietszche. These were men who died mentally broken. Nietszche went insane, and crowley became addicted to heroin. These are not role models. I dont have a problem persay with Buddhisms 4 noble truths or the 8 fold path. But, there is one fundamental porlbem to it. It suggests that man is capable of forming his own morals truths. This in essence tolerates a moral relativity. Thus, without an objective moral code, a law by which all people are subject to live by, you'll have one person who thinks one way, another who thinks in a completely contradictive way. What if my morality conflicts with yours. How do we resolve this moral conundrum now? This discrepenancy in itself reveals the inherent human reliance on a homogenous moral code. In Judaism theyre called the 7 laws of Noah.


Heaven forbid, can you imagine that, a world where all people don’t abide by the same laws, whatever would we do? I’m not sure if you’ve noticed but not everyone follows those laws. Some people even use those laws to get other people to break those very laws. Not working! Next, please!

I do not need to be told that it is wrong to take a life, I know that it is wrong. The only ‘law’ that any individual needs, is to treat others as you wish to be treated, if even that. Crimes and deviance happen for a reason, ‘laws’, man-made or otherwise cannot ever predict or accommodate all circumstances. If we kept things substantially more simple, on a basis whereby we were actually judged by our peers and ‘punishment’ meted out in a more tailored fashion, with the punishment figuratively befitting the crime, then I believe we would have a system that is far more objective, as subjective as it may sound to your ears. All laws do is set a bench mark, you have who is the most ‘good’ and who is the ‘worst’, and everyone ‘normal’ somewhere inbetween, and you eventually reach a point in time where it is seen as worthy of reverence, of fame, if not fortune, to be the worst, so the Bobby-soxers through their panties at Ted Bundy instead of Frank Sinatra. No-one is suggesting that we can operate without some law or guidance, but those laws should not be set in stone, as that, clearly, hinders progress. I am a firm believer that if it ain’t broke don’t fix it, but if it isn’t working, and I think it is safe to say that forcing a set of laws on people has not worked, ever, then it is time to go back to the drawing board. Start from scratch.


Originally posted by dontreally
In the beginning, G-d wanted man to know him through nature. But since man fell, his mind fell into a world of duality, the apple of the tree of good and evil became internalized. Keep in mind that adam represents every-man. Hes the universal mind. This universal conscious FELL. Do you know what that means? It means that any part within the whole is subject to the overall condition of the whole. The whole is fragemented, riddled with falsehood, confusions, doubt. This is a world, a reality, which has spawned with the fall of man and appears to be reaching it climax. So. No mystic can ever reach a state of complete moral certainity. Its simpyl impossible. Therefore, were subject to a law - the 10 commandments being a good example of it, and if you dont respect this objective law which most human beings have been taught, than your held liable. You have the knowledge.


I’ll certainly take that on board and feel free to tell me you told me so.


Originally posted by dontreally
funny that you mention the thigh. Jacob the kabbalists note was the rectification of Adam, which is why he was granted the privelege of generated the Jewish people, the 12 tribes(which came to repair the cosmos. The universal man, jacob, spliced into 12 parts, the 12 aspects of the lower spiritual worlds). Jacob fought Esaus angel, which, the sages note, was Samael - or satan. Samael struck Jacob in his thigh, his left thigh and left him permanently injured. The left thight kabbalistically refers to Hod. Hod means 'acknowledgement'. The lower triad of Netzach, Hod, and Yesod are OUTER focused spiritual powers. They bring the level of Chesed, Gevurah, Tiferet out to the external world and its reality. Netzach seeks to dominate the outer world. This is why some commentators refer to the right thigh as being the injured thigh. People seek to DOMINATE others. This is where mans spiritual problem lies. But the root cause of this power to seek to dominate is a lack of awareness, knowledge and SENSITIVITY to other people. This is hod. Instead of wanting to dominate, Hod seeks to empathize/sympathize with others.. Thus, people seek to dominate because people lack a fundamental sensitivity to the spiritual reality of their fellow spiritual brothers and sisters (after all, were all from the same source, the same pool of consciousness. How can we betray this truth and hurt one another? This is why evil people go to hell. Punishment for having injured an aspect of their own SELF. As corny as it sounds, in truth we are all one.). So. The thigh being referred to here in dionysus definitely has sexual undertones. But the REAL idea is one that is the ESSENCE of the worship of Dionysus. Domination. Dionysus seeks to dominate all limitations, boundaries, rules. Its a pure release of the will to dominate. That is the ESSENCE of dionysian consciousness. And Zeus? Is there a difference between Dionysus and Jesus? Jesus is the son of G-d, Dionysus the thigh of Zeus? Theres a very deep connection here. Zeus is the Greek representation of the Jewish G-d (hence a temple to jupiter was erected after the 2nd temple was destroyed). Dionysus being sown into his father Zeus' thigh signifies an integration and emphasis of a spiritual concept within the fabric of the universe. The concept is the human desire to dominate, SPECIFICALLY against G-d.


Zeus was originally earth (with an intentionally small E) before he was elevated to the sky to represent the firament. Dionysus, in literal translation means son of Zeus, or ofZeus. So Dionysus is God’s or the Male element’s representative on Earth, hence the prevalence of mushroom use in the proto-Greeks, the mushroom, and it’s semination of spores, was seen as the phallus of God, the earth. And this is also why it is connected with the women, the gathers of the fruits of the field and forest, and why he is married (as an illiteration) with Persephone/Demeter.

The Goddess, and which is why I expect the Pastorialists lost their way, or from your perspective found it, was the Mistress of the Hunt, the White Goddess, she guarded over the animals, prey and predator, and eventually, around the fireside she took shape in the stories and was able to be perceived in physical forms, as animal, or woman. These men would spend long periods away from the women folk, they had to have something to fill their time, but their stories are no less valid than your stories, they created their reality, just as your people created theirs. All the stories, of all the peoples, are interwoven anyway.


Originally posted by dontreally
I think we have to be careful HOW we talk about our problems. Just ranting and imagining that thats psychologically helpful has already been proven in clinical tests to be a false therapeutic method. ranting, yelling, is not healthy. Sure, its let off 'steam', but it also perpetuates the very problem. That is not TRANSMUTING the problem, but recycling it, i feel tense, im gonna yell, give expression to this tension, but the fundamental spiritual issue has not been dealt with. Kabbalistic approach to healing (it should be noted that Jung, Freud, Adler and many others heavily borrowed from the lurianic kabbalah) spiritual pains is through prayer, among other things. The most beneficial way to change yourself is to know deep down that your source of being wants your success in this positive change of self. So, its good to talk about problems when theyre eating at you. How you talk about then should be in a level headed and relaxed way. It should be a 'pouring your heart out' and not a rant. Doing this can often weaken the very reality that while within you, had control, but now that its influence has been exposed, almost as if loses its momentum.


Sometimes to regain control you have to completely let go off it. I think especially when you are dealing with trauma, mental, emotional, physical, whatever, experienced during childhood. Sometimes that child needs to really scream and shout, most particularly if that child is now trapped in the body of a dysfunctional adult. Only then can the talking begin and the various selves brought together. There is no hard and fast rule, and the first rule is not to judge or rather, to realise that you are in no position to judge. There but for the grace of god go I.

You are seemingly quite fortunate, you have been nurtured in the traditions of your people and that has given you, or so you are seeming to project, a sense of assurance in who you are. Not everyone has such good fortune. In fact many people do not have the slightest knowledge of who they are or where they come from and have no idea whether that is important or not. I was told by a gentleman that I know, that we should exorcise the spirits of ancestors, from ourselves I think he meant, or that is how I took it. He was right too, it is not enough to merely scratch the surface in our endeavour to know ourselves we have to go all the way down the rabbit hole and then navigate our way back out of the warren beneath. You said previously that my ‘soul’ is that which I go to when I dream etc. You turned a key and a lock fell open. Thank you. Though no confirmation that I have found my ‘soul’, just something ‘otherly’ at this stage, combined with a sudden and devastating revelation that practically every book I have ever read is the same story. Massive variance, but still the same central ‘myth’. Gobsmacked!


Originally posted by dontreally
Kabbalah talks about a fundamental trinity aswell. Thesis, Antithesis and Synthesis. This is the most basic differentiation of reality we can make. Theres something, theres it opposite, and theres some aspect which mediates the two. But the trinity is only relevant from OUR perspective. Kabbalah and Judaism says theres an ineffable source. Hence the quintessential Jewish expression of faith is "hear oh israel, G-d is our G-d, G-d is one".


Getting all very sketchy around here…over my head I think. Sorry!


Originally posted by dontreally
Its very interesting analyzing all the many similarities between the worlds pagan religions. Emphasis on certain numbers is where you tend to find it. 8 is probably the most mentioned. 8 fold path, 8 beatitudes, the 8 sectioned circle at St peters basilica, with an egyptian obelisk in the center. Apollos special number was 8, and echoing a popular eastern idea, his motto was 'moderation in everything'.


A lot of 9s too. Shed loads of 3. And 3 being 1. Seeing a lot of 23s myself of late. Everywhere!


Originally posted by dontreally
It always entertains me when people imagine that the original israelites were pagan. No. Abraham showed the world that spirituality didnt have to be mutually exclusive as the monks, nuns and leaders taught. The social leaders, the aristocrats shares a fundamental spiritual similarity with the monks and nuns. They both believed that Soul and matter were irreconcilable. In fact, they had to be kept apart at all costs. This is what the monks accomplished by being ascetics. The aristocrats accomplished in another way.


The Aristocrats benefit from a homogenised belief system, they back whichever suits their aim the best, they throw favour on whatever will keep the people satisfied and/or docile. Then hike up the taxes once the peasants are under the yoke. Since we’re on this, I kept turning over what you said about the Jews being vindicated, elsewhere, maybe not this thread, and one of the things that I came up with is that the main reason why the Jews have survived, against somewhat relentless persecution, is their willingness to comply with their oppressors, enabling them to operate with reasonable autonomy by immediately offering to pay high tributes (or taxes) or by making themselves indispensible (which directly links to parts of that ‘map’ in the Song of Songs). They worked out the game even if they have never quite run it (I think).

My current retirement plan is to join a monastic order as soon as I am able, incidently. I have yet to decide upon a ‘faith’, but they’re all much of a muchness when you get down to it, and I have at least a decade to decide. I am most definitely in favour of ascetism, for some and given my pinky grip on the poverty line I may be relinquishing those worldly goods in the very near future.


Originally posted by dontreally
Lavan is the paradigm of this in the Torah. His very name "white" implies self righteous surety. People like Lavan separate the soul and spirit by relinquishing the body to the physical, the source of mans lower egocentric side, while the soul is somewhere else. look at lavans actions in the bible. he manipulated Jacob throughout. Read paradise lost. In book 3 towards the end theres a very interesting description of how satan uses subterfuge and deception, a reality unappreciated by those who seek unity, and thus simplicity to get what he wants(Lying is the paradigm of separating the inner from the outer. Thus, all politicians are liars) He thus feigns sincerity towards Uriel in a desire to get knowledge of mankinds location.


Politicians lie with our consent, otherwise how do we know that they are lying?


Originally posted by dontreally
He is the paradigmatic worshipper of Samael, Satan, Lucifer, Hermes. What Jung termed 'the shadow' or the dark god. This is why Jacob went and studied with Shem and Eber. Shem and Eber were mystics of the Buddhist inclination. Nimrod didnt seek to kill them as he did Abraham (by throwing him in a furnace) because monastics dont threaten the soverign rule of the aristocrats (i have said in earlier psots that our world is ruled by aristocrats - ancestors of the same ones in abrahams generation. They like interbreeding) because monastic pose no threats. "They want to go off to a mountain to meditate? Go ahead. Ill leave you to it. Just dont question my theory of society". Shem and Eber thus taught Jacob a very important lesson. Non Jewish mysticism seeks to separate the worlds of matter and spirit. He went there and learned the wisdom of it. In fact, while there, For 14 years he never slept - as an extreme form of ascetic practice.


Sleep deprivation, though not necessarily to that extent, as well as fasting, are a highly effective means of connecting the various spheres of the brain as a whole. You have to have a pretty low body fat content to begin with though and reach a point whereby you are effectively consuming yourself, that is when the high functioning really kicks in. Takes practice though, and you have to be sure in that you can draw yourself back. The results are not always worthy of the recovery required. Sleep deprivation can make things a little too trippy.

I see your point, but I think that the nature of monasticism has been twisted irrevocably in the ‘West’ and that the only good examples of true ascetism, can be found in the East and in those who take on active service and literally do god’s work. If ever service is not it’s own reward, it is not really ascetism in my book.


Originally posted by dontreally
So, Judaism is about connecting spirit and matter. Mitzvot, commandments, are about this. mitzvot are only relevant to the physical world. Its this world which Judaism seeks to spiritualize, and its because of this noble intention that the Jews have sufferred so much throughout history. The Western aristocrats absolutely revile them. find them completely repugant.


It is my understanding that that very much depends upon the aristocrats. Hmmm or does it? Perhaps the most successful examples of Jewish power broking are Britain and the Holy Roman Empire, both resolutely feminine in nature which would find balance in the patriarchy of the Judaic sensibility. Possibly. Hence why the nobility would revile them in the instances that they did. Other than the trade issue that is, but money is usually at the root of it, one way or another.


Originally posted by dontreally
Look at history. 3000 thousand years extermination attempts have been made against the Jews!.


This is not a matter that can be over simplified as you have done. The Jews, as a collective, have not been persecuted for 3000 years, and certainly not ‘exterminated’. Some Jews were persecuted, some more consistently than others admittedly. As far as the Levant and Near East are concerned, they were seemingly conquered and placed under one tribal banner. That tribe put itself up against the other big tribes, they won some, they lost some. You lose, you get taken prisoner, assuming that you are male, you can chose to assimilate, or not. Most everyone, apart from the Jews, suffered under the Romans, the Jews though negotiated and survived relatively intact, while most other tribes, the Celts, eventually, included, were assimilated. They survived and prospered throughout the dark ages and into the middle ages where they started to hit trouble. So what we are in reality looking at, though no lesser a sufferance, is about 1000 years of persecution, give or take a day or two. And again, nothing at all to do with religion, it is all in the economics.

I think it is interesting though, that of all the sub-groups of Jews, it was the Ashkenazi that were most hard pressed by the persecutions in the second millennia CE, and yet it is they that are generally pointed at as the evil Jews, there must only be about half a dozen of them left, those that the Nazis didn’t get, Stalin did, and those that escaped, the Israelis have been effectively trying to breed out, or in rather, to the more predominatly Sephardic gene pool. Bear in mind that it was women and female children that were summarily executed by the Nazis, thereby severing the Ashkenazi matrilineal line but preserving the patrilineal line, as they were utilised as slave labour, although the pretty girl Jews were kept as camp whores, so some did survive in that way, if you call that survival. But the Ashkenazi were, in the East especially those that worked the land as small collective communities, and it was they that lost their land generation after generation in a movement across Europe from the Levant. They were seemingly hunted down to the point of extinction, not sure why.


Originally posted by dontreally
Nazi Germany were the last ones to attempt it and if you know anything about world war 2 politics you would know that the Americans, British, french and the governments of all european regimes which had Jewish population completely complied with the "nazi" agenda.


I don’t think, in the examples that you give, that as nations those people complied, they certainly exacerbated the situation though. Other examples, some more than complied, they pre-empted Nazi Policy, most particularly in the Balkans where 30 years later the same routine was used against the ethnic Muslim population and the job was finally finished. There are a number of very separate holocausts during that period, each motivated by external forces to Germany, and all economically driven, but still quite separate.


Originally posted by dontreally
most amazingly was the role of the vatican, the inheritor of Rome and purveyor of evil in our world. Eugene pacelli later on Pope Pius XII (he ascended to this role the very day WWII started. How coincidental) was the one who penned the 1917 new papal canon which created a top down church heirarchy which gave full powers to the pope. This ended the collegiality between bishops that had existed up to that point in the catholic church.


The Church was reacting to Communism, or rather Bolshevism (Socialism), it was no more or less a victim of the manipulation of the times than anyone else. In reaction, they appointed a career diplomat, a negotiator, to the Papacy and as a result, left the entire Roman Catholic people bereft of spiritual guidance at a time when it most needed it.


Originally posted by dontreally
This development in addition to his organizing the papal concordant of 1933 with Hitler - which disbanded the catholic center party, gave full ability to the Nazis to gain the political power they were seeking. And when all was set and in place, The pope never utterred a word throuhout the war. Not with the Jews in Germany and Europe, despite the many protests and calls from ambassadors, critics, and diplomats to denounce the Nazi persecution of Jews. Didnt utter a peep. It took 4 grueling years, millions of Jews killed, before pius made a passing ambiguous statement in one of his encyclicals about the suffering of the "people" in Germany. No mention of Jews, or a call to help them. Germany was HALF catholic. imagine what kind of political power Germanies catholics could have exercized if the pope said something.


As I have stated, the Church reneged on it’s over-riding responsibility and was left to give empty absolution after the fact, the Church were not alone in turning a blind eye. A man I admire enormousy, The Third Baron Rothschild, or Victor as I rather irreverently like to call him, wrote, in latin, to Pius, appealing in the clearest language, that he speak to the Catholic people of Germany and be clear that the persecution of the Jews was ‘wrong’. I don’t think that he even received a reply. The Church showed fear, something no good leader should do lest it be passed onto their people, those that look to their leader for guidance, and it gave assurance in their silence that it was okay to follow Hitler. The Church most definately failed their people, but as individuals many Catholics rose above and beyond the call of duty, ignored and defied their ‘elders’ and resisted the authority of Nazi rule. Jews were not only saved and protected by a good many Catholics, but Catholic Priests, Brothers and Sisters, gave their lives in the concentration camps continuing to live and die beside those whose service god had called them to.


Originally posted by dontreally
Sorry for getting off topic. Theres a deep reason behind antimsemitism, and it certainly isnt the fault of the Jews. Its a difference of social theory you could say.


Yes, you could say that, doesn’t overcome the problem or stop you pointing your fingers at others and saying, but he did this…two wrongs do not make a right, as collectives we all suck. In the modern way of doing things anyway.


Originally posted by dontreally
The leaders of our world are preparing us to accept a gnostic philosophy by separating our very selves. Soul from body. This is the 21st century schizoid man in king crimson (and sampled by kanye west today). This is the mold from which man will embrace the philosophical tenets of 'the perennially philosophy' as Huxley called it. This is manipulation in the most grandest imaginable way.


Thankfully I do not know what Kanye West may or may not have sampled so I’ll have to take your word on it.


Originally posted by dontreally
So, before people are even given an ability to choose for themselves what they want, they are being severely handicapped by having both sides of them, the spiritual, contemplative, and the sensual clicked at the same time. Talk about ambivalence. The only way to 'organize' this ambivalence is through recognizing the spirituality posited and championed by people like CG Jung.

Also, in what way did you consider Jung wrong?


Let’s first look at the country that Jung considered ‘Eden’, a nation where some women did not gain the vote until 1990! The man himself, numerous times abused his position by having sexual relations with his patients (female) as well as frequenting prostitutes, he was hardly in a position to set any margin of normalcy, since all his work is about him, even when it is about his patients, it is still about him and how brilliant he was to have discovered that, etc etc. And I suppose I should also now consider that his theory was based upon those of a Jew, whose genetic memory is programmed to see Mother’s as whores. Sure Jung made progress, massively really, all things considered, but only in understanding ‘self’. He was an extreme narcissist which may have helped in that respect, but then he halted it, ceased to guide, began to dictate and like Euripides, he chose money, fame and the power that allowed him to set out the means to realise Rockefeller’s plans for social engineering.

Jung, through the exploration and extirpation of his personal ‘Myth’, unlocked the key to ‘memory’ at the subconscious level, but he largely kept that key in his pocket and only brought it out for the highest bidder, to control others or often more specifically. in order to get his end away. He did far more harm than good.

Originally posted by dontreally
In the beginning, G-d wanted man to know him through nature. But since man fell, his mind fell into a world of duality, the apple of the tree of good and evil became internalized. Keep in mind that adam represents every-man. Hes the universal mind. This universal conscious FELL. Do you know what that means? It means that any part within the whole is subject to the overall condition of the whole. The whole is fragemented, riddled with falsehood, confusions, doubt. This is a world, a reality, which has spawned with the fall of man and appears to be reaching it climax. So. No mystic can ever reach a state of complete moral certainity. Its simpyl impossible. Therefore, were subject to a law - the 10 commandments being a good example of it, and if you dont respect this objective law which most human beings have been taught, than your held liable. You have the knowledge.


I’ll certainly take that on board and feel free to tell me you told me so.


Originally posted by dontreally
funny that you mention the thigh. Jacob the kabbalists note was the rectification of Adam, which is why he was granted the privelege of generated the Jewish people, the 12 tribes(which came to repair the cosmos. The universal man, jacob, spliced into 12 parts, the 12 aspects of the lower spiritual worlds). Jacob fought Esaus angel, which, the sages note, was Samael - or satan. Samael struck Jacob in his thigh, his left thigh and left him permanently injured. The left thight kabbalistically refers to Hod. Hod means 'acknowledgement'. The lower triad of Netzach, Hod, and Yesod are OUTER focused spiritual powers. They bring the level of Chesed, Gevurah, Tiferet out to the external world and its reality. Netzach seeks to dominate the outer world. This is why some commentators refer to the right thigh as being the injured thigh. People seek to DOMINATE others. This is where mans spiritual problem lies. But the root cause of this power to seek to dominate is a lack of awareness, knowledge and SENSITIVITY to other people. This is hod. Instead of wanting to dominate, Hod seeks to empathize/sympathize with others.. Thus, people seek to dominate because people lack a fundamental sensitivity to the spiritual reality of their fellow spiritual brothers and sisters (after all, were all from the same source, the same pool of consciousness. How can we betray this truth and hurt one another? This is why evil people go to hell. Punishment for having injured an aspect of their own SELF. As corny as it sounds, in truth we are all one.). So. The thigh being referred to here in dionysus definitely has sexual undertones. But the REAL idea is one that is the ESSENCE of the worship of Dionysus. Domination. Dionysus seeks to dominate all limitations, boundaries, rules. Its a pure release of the will to dominate. That is the ESSENCE of dionysian consciousness. And Zeus? Is there a difference between Dionysus and Jesus? Jesus is the son of G-d, Dionysus the thigh of Zeus? Theres a very deep connection here. Zeus is the Greek representation of the Jewish G-d (hence a temple to jupiter was erected after the 2nd temple was destroyed). Dionysus being sown into his father Zeus' thigh signifies an integration and emphasis of a spiritual concept within the fabric of the universe. The concept is the human desire to dominate, SPECIFICALLY against G-d.


Zeus was originally earth (with an intentionally small E) before he was elevated to the sky to represent the firament. Dionysus, in literal translation means son of Zeus, or ofZeus. So Dionysus is God’s or the Male element’s representative on Earth, hence the prevalence of mushroom use in the proto-Greeks, the mushroom, and it’s semination of spores, was seen as the phallus of God, the earth. And this is also why it is connected with the women, the gathers of the fruits of the field and forest, and why he is married (as an illiteration) with Persephone/Demeter.

The Goddess, and which is why I expect the Pastorialists lost their way, or from your perspective found it, was the Mistress of the Hunt, the White Goddess, she guarded over the animals, prey and predator, and eventually, around the fireside she took shape in the stories and was able to be perceived in physical forms, as animal, or woman. These men would spend long periods away from the women folk, they had to have something to fill their time, but their stories are no less valid than your stories, they created their reality, just as your people created theirs. All the stories, of all the peoples, are interwoven anyway.


Originally posted by dontreally
I think we have to be careful HOW we talk about our problems. Just ranting and imagining that thats psychologically helpful has already been proven in clinical tests to be a false therapeutic method. ranting, yelling, is not healthy. Sure, its let off 'steam', but it also perpetuates the very problem. That is not TRANSMUTING the problem, but recycling it, i feel tense, im gonna yell, give expression to this tension, but the fundamental spiritual issue has not been dealt with. Kabbalistic approach to healing (it should be noted that Jung, Freud, Adler and many others heavily borrowed from the lurianic kabbalah) spiritual pains is through prayer, among other things. The most beneficial way to change yourself is to know deep down that your source of being wants your success in this positive change of self. So, its good to talk about problems when theyre eating at you. How you talk about then should be in a level headed and relaxed way. It should be a 'pouring your heart out' and not a rant. Doing this can often weaken the very reality that while within you, had control, but now that its influence has been exposed, almost as if loses its momentum.


Sometimes to regain control you have to completely let go off it. I think especially when you are dealing with trauma, mental, emotional, physical, whatever, experienced during childhood. Sometimes that child needs to really scream and shout, most particularly if that child is now trapped in the body of a dysfunctional adult. Only then can the talking begin and the various selves brought together. There is no hard and fast rule, and the first rule is not to judge or rather, to realise that you are in no position to judge. There but for the grace of god go I.

You are seemingly quite fortunate, you have been nurtured in the traditions of your people and that has given you, or so you are seeming to project, a sense of assurance in who you are. Not everyone has such good fortune. In fact many people do not have the slightest knowledge of who they are or where they come from and have no idea whether that is important or not. I was told by a gentleman that I know, that we should exorcise the spirits of ancestors, from ourselves I think he meant, or that is how I took it. He was right too, it is not enough to merely scratch the surface in our endeavour to know ourselves we have to go all the way down the rabbit hole and then navigate our way back out of the warren beneath. You said previously that my ‘soul’ is that which I go to when I dream etc. You turned a key and a lock fell open. Thank you. Though no confirmation that I have found my ‘soul’, just something ‘otherly’ at this stage, combined with a sudden and devastating revelation that practically every book I have ever read is the same story. Massive variance, but still the same central ‘myth’. Gobsmacked!


Originally posted by dontreally
Kabbalah talks about a fundamental trinity aswell. Thesis, Antithesis and Synthesis. This is the most basic differentiation of reality we can make. Theres something, theres it opposite, and theres some aspect which mediates the two. But the trinity is only relevant from OUR perspective. Kabbalah and Judaism says theres an ineffable source. Hence the quintessential Jewish expression of faith is "hear oh israel, G-d is our G-d, G-d is one".


Getting all very sketchy around here…over my head I think. Sorry!


Originally posted by dontreally
Its very interesting analyzing all the many similarities between the worlds pagan religions. Emphasis on certain numbers is where you tend to find it. 8 is probably the most mentioned. 8 fold path, 8 beatitudes, the 8 sectioned circle at St peters basilica, with an egyptian obelisk in the center. Apollos special number was 8, and echoing a popular eastern idea, his motto was 'moderation in everything'.


A lot of 9s too. Shed loads of 3. And 3 being 1. Seeing a lot of 23s myself of late. Everywhere!


Originally posted by dontreally
It always entertains me when people imagine that the original israelites were pagan. No. Abraham showed the world that spirituality didnt have to be mutually exclusive as the monks, nuns and leaders taught. The social leaders, the aristocrats shares a fundamental spiritual similarity with the monks and nuns. They both believed that Soul and matter were irreconcilable. In fact, they had to be kept apart at all costs. This is what the monks accomplished by being ascetics. The aristocrats accomplished in another way.


The Aristocrats benefit from a homogenised belief system, they back whichever suits their aim the best, they throw favour on whatever will keep the people satisfied and/or docile. Then hike up the taxes once the peasants are under the yoke. Since we’re on this, I kept turning over what you said about the Jews being vindicated, elsewhere, maybe not this thread, and one of the things that I came up with is that the main reason why the Jews have survived, against somewhat relentless persecution, is their willingness to comply with their oppressors, enabling them to operate with reasonable autonomy by immediately offering to pay high tributes (or taxes) or by making themselves indispensible (which directly links to parts of that ‘map’ in the Song of Songs). They worked out the game even if they have never quite run it (I think).

My current retirement plan is to join a monastic order as soon as I am able, incidently. I have yet to decide upon a ‘faith’, but they’re all much of a muchness when you get down to it, and I have at least a decade to decide. I am most definitely in favour of ascetism, for some and given my pinky grip on the poverty line I may be relinquishing those worldly goods in the very near future.


Originally posted by dontreally
Lavan is the paradigm of this in the Torah. His very name "white" implies self righteous surety. People like Lavan separate the soul and spirit by relinquishing the body to the physical, the source of mans lower egocentric side, while the soul is somewhere else. look at lavans actions in the bible. he manipulated Jacob throughout. Read paradise lost. In book 3 towards the end theres a very interesting description of how satan uses subterfuge and deception, a reality unappreciated by those who seek unity, and thus simplicity to get what he wants(Lying is the paradigm of separating the inner from the outer. Thus, all politicians are liars) He thus feigns sincerity towards Uriel in a desire to get knowledge of mankinds location.


Politicians lie with our consent, otherwise how do we know that they are lying?


Originally posted by dontreally
He is the paradigmatic worshipper of Samael, Satan, Lucifer, Hermes. What Jung termed 'the shadow' or the dark god. This is why Jacob went and studied with Shem and Eber. Shem and Eber were mystics of the Buddhist inclination. Nimrod didnt seek to kill them as he did Abraham (by throwing him in a furnace) because monastics dont threaten the soverign rule of the aristocrats (i have said in earlier psots that our world is ruled by aristocrats - ancestors of the same ones in abrahams generation. They like interbreeding) because monastic pose no threats. "They want to go off to a mountain to meditate? Go ahead. Ill leave you to it. Just dont question my theory of society". Shem and Eber thus taught Jacob a very important lesson. Non Jewish mysticism seeks to separate the worlds of matter and spirit. He went there and learned the wisdom of it. In fact, while there, For 14 years he never slept - as an extreme form of ascetic practice.


Sleep deprivation, though not necessarily to that extent, as well as fasting, are a highly effective means of connecting the various spheres of the brain as a whole. You have to have a pretty low body fat content to begin with though and reach a point whereby you are effectively consuming yourself, that is when the high functioning really kicks in. Takes practice though, and you have to be sure in that you can draw yourself back. The results are not always worthy of the recovery required. Sleep deprivation can make things a little too trippy.

I see your point, but I think that the nature of monasticism has been twisted irrevocably in the ‘West’ and that the only good examples of true ascetism, can be found in the East and in those who take on active service and literally do god’s work. If ever service is not it’s own reward, it is not really ascetism in my book.


Originally posted by dontreally
So, Judaism is about connecting spirit and matter. Mitzvot, commandments, are about this. mitzvot are only relevant to the physical world. Its this world which Judaism seeks to spiritualize, and its because of this noble intention that the Jews have sufferred so much throughout history. The Western aristocrats absolutely revile them. find them completely repugant.


It is my understanding that that very much depends upon the aristocrats. Hmmm or does it? Perhaps the most successful examples of Jewish power broking are Britain and the Holy Roman Empire, both resolutely feminine in nature which would find balance in the patriarchy of the Judaic sensibility. Possibly. Hence why the nobility would revile them in the instances that they did. Other than the trade issue that is, but money is usually at the root of it, one way or another.


Originally posted by dontreally
Look at history. 3000 thousand years extermination attempts have been made against the Jews!.


This is not a matter that can be over simplified as you have done. The Jews, as a collective, have not been persecuted for 3000 years, and certainly not ‘exterminated’. Some Jews were persecuted, some more consistently than others admittedly. As far as the Levant and Near East are concerned, they were seemingly conquered and placed under one tribal banner. That tribe put itself up against the other big tribes, they won some, they lost some. You lose, you get taken prisoner, assuming that you are male, you can chose to assimilate, or not. Most everyone, apart from the Jews, suffered under the Romans, the Jews though negotiated and survived relatively intact, while most other tribes, the Celts, eventually, included, were assimilated. They survived and prospered throughout the dark ages and into the middle ages where they started to hit trouble. So what we are in reality looking at, though no lesser a sufferance, is about 1000 years of persecution, give or take a day or two. And again, nothing at all to do with religion, it is all in the economics.

I think it is interesting though, that of all the sub-groups of Jews, it was the Ashkenazi that were most hard pressed by the persecutions in the second millennia CE, and yet it is they that are generally pointed at as the evil Jews, there must only be about half a dozen of them left, those that the Nazis didn’t get, Stalin did, and those that escaped, the Israelis have been effectively trying to breed out, or in rather, to the more predominatly Sephardic gene pool. Bear in mind that it was women and female children that were summarily executed by the Nazis, thereby severing the Ashkenazi matrilineal line but preserving the patrilineal line, as they were utilised as slave labour, although the pretty girl Jews were kept as camp whores, so some did survive in that way, if you call that survival. But the Ashkenazi were, in the East especially those that worked the land as small collective communities, and it was they that lost their land generation after generation in a movement across Europe from the Levant. They were seemingly hunted down to the point of extinction, not sure why.


Originally posted by dontreally
Nazi Germany were the last ones to attempt it and if you know anything about world war 2 politics you would know that the Americans, British, french and the governments of all european regimes which had Jewish population completely complied with the "nazi" agenda.


I don’t think, in the examples that you give, that as nations those people complied, they certainly exacerbated the situation though. Other examples, some more than complied, they pre-empted Nazi Policy, most particularly in the Balkans where 30 years later the same routine was used against the ethnic Muslim population and the job was finally finished. There are a number of very separate holocausts during that period, each motivated by external forces to Germany, and all economically driven, but still quite separate.


Originally posted by dontreally
most amazingly was the role of the vatican, the inheritor of Rome and purveyor of evil in our world. Eugene pacelli later on Pope Pius XII (he ascended to this role the very day WWII started. How coincidental) was the one who penned the 1917 new papal canon which created a top down church heirarchy which gave full powers to the pope. This ended the collegiality between bishops that had existed up to that point in the catholic church.


The Church was reacting to Communism, or rather Bolshevism (Socialism), it was no more or less a victim of the manipulation of the times than anyone else. In reaction, they appointed a career diplomat, a negotiator, to the Papacy and as a result, left the entire Roman Catholic people bereft of spiritual guidance at a time when it most needed it.


Originally posted by dontreally
This development in addition to his organizing the papal concordant of 1933 with Hitler - which disbanded the catholic center party, gave full ability to the Nazis to gain the political power they were seeking. And when all was set and in place, The pope never utterred a word throuhout the war. Not with the Jews in Germany and Europe, despite the many protests and calls from ambassadors, critics, and diplomats to denounce the Nazi persecution of Jews. Didnt utter a peep. It took 4 grueling years, millions of Jews killed, before pius made a passing ambiguous statement in one of his encyclicals about the suffering of the "people" in Germany. No mention of Jews, or a call to help them. Germany was HALF catholic. imagine what kind of political power Germanies catholics could have exercized if the pope said something.


As I have stated, the Church reneged on it’s over-riding responsibility and was left to give empty absolution after the fact, the Church were not alone in turning a blind eye. A man I admire enormousy, The Third Baron Rothschild, or Victor as I rather irreverently like to call him, wrote, in latin, to Pius, appealing in the clearest language, that he speak to the Catholic people of Germany and be clear that the persecution of the Jews was ‘wrong’. I don’t think that he even received a reply. The Church showed fear, something no good leader should do lest it be passed onto their people, those that look to their leader for guidance, and it gave assurance in their silence that it was okay to follow Hitler. The Church most definately failed their people, but as individuals many Catholics rose above and beyond the call of duty, ignored and defied their ‘elders’ and resisted the authority of Nazi rule. Jews were not only saved and protected by a good many Catholics, but Catholic Priests, Brothers and Sisters, gave their lives in the concentration camps continuing to live and die beside those whose service god had called them to.


Originally posted by dontreally
Sorry for getting off topic. Theres a deep reason behind antimsemitism, and it certainly isnt the fault of the Jews. Its a difference of social theory you could say.


Yes, you could say that, doesn’t overcome the problem or stop you pointing your fingers at others and saying, but he did this…two wrongs do not make a right, as collectives we all suck. In the modern way of doing things anyway.


Originally posted by dontreally
The leaders of our world are preparing us to accept a gnostic philosophy by separating our very selves. Soul from body. This is the 21st century schizoid man in king crimson (and sampled by kanye west today). This is the mold from which man will embrace the philosophical tenets of 'the perennially philosophy' as Huxley called it. This is manipulation in the most grandest imaginable way.


Thankfully I do not know what Kanye West may or may not have sampled so I’ll have to take your word on it.


Originally posted by dontreally
So, before people are even given an ability to choose for themselves what they want, they are being severely handicapped by having both sides of them, the spiritual, contemplative, and the sensual clicked at the same time. Talk about ambivalence. The only way to 'organize' this ambivalence is through recognizing the spirituality posited and championed by people like CG Jung.

Also, in what way did you consider Jung wrong?


Let’s first look at the country that Jung considered ‘Eden’, a nation where some women did not gain the vote until 1990! The man himself, numerous times abused his position by having sexual relations with his patients (female) as well as frequenting prostitutes, he was hardly in a position to set any margin of normalcy, since all his work is about him, even when it is about his patients, it is still about him and how brilliant he was to have discovered that, etc etc. And I suppose I should also now consider that his theory was based upon those of a Jew, whose genetic memory is programmed to see Mother’s as whores. Sure Jung made progress, massively really, all things considered, but only in understanding ‘self’. He was an extreme narcissist which may have helped in that respect, but then he halted it, ceased to guide, began to dictate and like Euripides, he chose money, fame and the power that allowed him to set out the means to realise Rockefeller’s plans for social engineering.

Jung, through the exploration and extirpation of his personal ‘Myth’, unlocked the key to ‘memory’ at the subconscious level, but he largely kept that key in his pocket and only brought it out for the highest bidder, to control others or often more specifically. in order to get his end away. He did far more harm than good.

edit on 20-10-2010 by KilgoreTrout because: Tickly tummies!



posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 07:17 PM
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lol, kilgoretrout. You completely outdid me.

Thats gonna take a few days to read.



posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 08:14 PM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
here is no ACTUAL meaning, the reason why The Song of Songs sticks out like a sore thumb is because it is written by an artist. Or two. Nothing else in the Bible, new or old, even comes close to touching it. And, as a true piece of art, it’s meaning is manifold. In part, like Dionysus, it is a map, a very complex one that I haven’t fully deciphered, inter woven is the story of creation, and more still the realisation and consummation of the love that is creation, and many other things besides that my mind is not yet capable of processing. It is though, in it’s simplicity a love poem. Sex, in this form, is an act of love, no more or less, it is your mind that denigrates it, not mine.

So, in this poem, we have two very distinct, and equal voices. Male and Female. Though I am open minded to your actual interpretation/meaning, you’re not doing such a good job of selling it. Show me, how do I see it as you see it? The only possible explanation that I can see is that you deny the female, elemental or otherwise, a right to have it’s own voice that compliments that of the male element…and instead assume that the male gives the female a voice. Surely not! Wouldn’t that mean that the Whore of Babylon is the Goddess herself? #, # and bollocks, no wonder your people are cursed, way to go crapping in the hand that feeds you. I mean, seriously!!!!! Good, gosh and golly, I’m really quite shocked at the amazing sense that, well, everything, suddenly makes. My word! Hell, it takes one to know one after all, and although I have never been one, not in this lifetime certainly, I have been called one often enough to wonder what the # that is all about, if you know what I mean, which I doubt very much that you do. # man, you called Mother a whore and you have been spreading the rumour ever since, can you imagine how pissed off Daddy is? I know she’s fuming!


No. There actually IS meaning. I dont know about you but its not exactly intelligible to think that any book in the bible is without meaning.

Never forget who copped and integrated another peoples religious works. The Roman - Greco culture.

And lets also not pretend, but cause its simply not true, that christianity as it exists today existed during Roman times. Christianity of those earlier eras was at most, Gnosticism. The Christianity we see today is the result of the ammalgamation and expansion that the Church of Rome made in the 11th and 12th centuries. Christianity is simply a political tool that is completely disingenuous. In truth, its about exporting the culture and philosophy of greece and Rome beneath Jewish garments. So. Lets not believe the lies, calmuny and perception created by the western leaders that the bible has "no interpretation". As if a book so meaningful and subtle could not have an oral tradition.

You seem very educated in the Oral tradition of Greece. In that their mythos have Interpretation. Why is ok for Greek myth to have intended meaning - which it objectively does, while The Jewish tradition doesnt. Any person whos ever learned Hebrew and studied Tanakh at an esoteric level( which would takes years in itself to accomplish) knows how legitimate the claim of the Rabbis that the oral tradition does exist; and as such, remained oral for the simple reason that something put down in writing is generally forgotton or neglected. You keep it in your mind, and it'll be more intimate with you. This is how the Jewish sages from biblical times through talmudic times up to today transmitted the mystical interpretation of Torah.

Unlike in other cutlures, NO HEBREW WORD USED IN ANY HOLY TEXT IS ARBITRARY. This is a rabbinic principle, and kabbalah completely backs it up. The language used by solomon has definitive meaning. Of course, ultimately, one is meant to read it as poetry and appreciate all aspects of its majesty. In simplicity, or as a kabbalistic allegory between G-d and his presence. When one reads it in simplicity he can also attune his awareness to the deeper meaning which acts like a meditative device; connecting the heart of the reader to the soul of the song of songs.. to experience the same degree of thirst and desire expressed by G-d to his shekina, his bride.

Keep in mind that a tenet of Greek ideology is theatre. The essence of which is fiction. The greeks believed that truth can be found in falsehood. And that falsehood can lead to truth. Believing this religiously as they do. Would it not make sense for the Greeks to appropriate Jewish religious texts to 'reinvent them'. To adopt their language to their own philosophical principles - hoping that over time the text would evolve as an honest allegory between the masculine and feminine as the pagan mind imagines it. After all, did not machievalli, Hegel argue that perception is everything? Do you not now believe that this mystical masterpiece "has no actual meaning"?



Perhaps you’ve read it too many times. You don’t seem to feel it, you may be desensitised. That could explain a lot. About your people. Hehe, you could say desensitisation is a general theme of Judaism.


You can never read the Torah too many times. Its subtleties are enormous. A Shame you think so little of it.

Also, you cant appreciate any Hebraic writing - the bible, without a knowledge of Hebrew. Thats simply how it is.

Just like you cant appreciate the fact that Dionysus can be permuted as Nous Dios - mind of god. You need the language to understand that. If this applies to Greek, how much more so to the Hebrew language?

Desensitization a theme of Judaism? Well. Judaisms not obsessed with sensuality, like Greek culture is. in that way yes we do concentrate on the spiritual side of things. Thats why presumptuous ignoramuses assume the mundane language and narratives of the Torah is all there is. Not understanding that its simply a mystical allegory - containing the deepest secrets not only of man, but of creation. Hebrew is this very vehicle, as the sages and mystics of judaism have taught, which reality is created.. And as clearly organizations like freemasonry take very seriously.

As for the feminism you seem so passionate about.

Judaism is fundamentally different from other religions in this regard.

Please listen and try to understand the importance of this dynamism.

We look at the world as being an interplay between qualities, good, evil, giver, reciever, Male, and Female. Thus, all of reality is made of these contrasting and complimenting qualities. Both need to serve their role in order to realize the greater purpose of the whole.

The masculine can not become the feminine, lest he displace her, and upset the natural dynamic. And feminine can not play the masculine for the same reasons.

G-d is the ultimate Giver. He is the ultimate source of reality. The creator. Mankind is the ultimate reciever, as is teh creation. Hence the 'shekinah' the divine presence,life, imbued in all physical things is the feminine, which recieves from the infinite source of reality, G-d.

This is the divine, "abstract" dynamic which we call spiritual. This dynamic is meant to be imitated here on the microcosmic plane. Man as "giver" and women as "reciever". Hence, Torah describes Eve being taken from Adams rib. Shes apart of him - not the other way around. When i give something to someone, what they now have is intrinsically from me, and thus i will always have connection with it. Ishah (woman) In Hebrew, is from Ish (man). The extra article, "heh" being the feminine quality which has the gematria of 5. like a hand that takes and grasps on to what its been given.

G-d calls Eve a Helper to Adam. Her job is to be APART and not in competition with Adam, who she realizes to be her source of physical life.. This concept is beautifully expressed by milton in paradise lost, where Eve realizing her purpose, completely subjugates herself to Adam, realizing that creation depends on this dynamic.

Just as G-d is the giver, and we the ultimate reciever, Eve must subjugate herself to recieve from Adam, and likewise, mankind has to subjugate their will, and recieve from G-d.

Do you see how extraordinary this is?

Man gives his seed to the women in order that whe REALIZE the potential he transfers.
A conceptualization must impregnate the conscious mind in order for all its details and aspects to become fully developed and Grasped.
The rain from the Heavens impregnate the earth with life - the potential, which the earth brings forth in great multifarious bounty.
Man goes out into the world to provide the raw sustenance for his families survival. The Wife translates this vitality into real expression. In developing her children, encouraging and helping her husbands growth and making a loving and inviting home, the wife manifests the feminine in human microcosm.

True happiness is only possible when man lives according to this formula.

This is the natural dynamic of reality.

Lets contrast this with paganism. In both eastern and western thought you find the intermingling and blurring of differences between the sexes. This mirrors the blurring the difference between man and animal, that we see today. Or blurring the lines between G-d and man, that we see in all pagan religions.

The destruction of society has specifically occurred THROUGH corruptign the fickle female personality.

Women are on the whole, illogical (not all, but most). Just as the average female head(mind) reaches the chest area of a man, so to the female consciousness is more emotionally centered. They are more earthbound. Man likewise is more intellectual, abstract, his 'thoughts' need to find expression. And a womens ability to express needs motivation. This is how man and women compliment each other.

G-d forbid you construe this as me talking about a subjugation between man and women. A women not having a right to vote - is that Really a bad thing? Do you know what was the original intent behind that decree? Why women have never been granted a political right? The need for the women to SUBJUGATE her will to her husband. Not in an abusive way - G-d forbid. And abusive husband will be punished for his idiocy. The idea is to deepen the connection between hudband and wife,. The wife has every right to persuade her husband in any way she feels; and lets just read a famous quote from a famous US president about how much power a women really has over her husband.

"“we dare not exert our power [in the home] in its full latitude…in practice, you know, we are the subjects. We have only the name of masters. To give up on this would subject us completely to the despotism of the petticoat.” - John Adams

do you get that"? THE COMPLETE AND UTTER DESPOTISM OF THE PETTICOAT. Understood more mystically, the feminine principle. The feminine principle is the sensual, emotional, physical, material. Look at todays culture and its sensory adulations.. Watch a popular sitcom. How is the hudband presented? almost always as a babbling sports obsessed oaf who needs his wife to direct him. Shes the 'will' the 'reason' that directs the husband. What about divorce. Wheres the man? 99 times out of a 100 the wife wins and gets complete custody of teh children, making the 'state' the official father figure. Or in abortion. The man who conributeed to this life isnt even given a fricken choice in the matter. The 'doctor' becomes the father figure.

Do yuo see how our elites are quite aware of this natural dynamic in reality? and how manipulating this dynamic produces results that can be predicted. Its actually quite simple.

The recent movie Avatar - which was all about a feminine worship, takes place in "pandora". The Goddess, the Navi (Hebrew for 'prophet') worship is named Eywa. The tetragrammaton has 12 possible unique permutations, and each one of the permutations is associated with a month of the year and its corresponding zodiac sign. In kabbalistic tradition, each "name" , with its 4 letters rearranged in a different order is responsible for the particular traits associated with each month in time. The month which corresponds to Shevat - Water bearer, Aquarius, is Heh, Yod, Waw, Heh. This can be pronounced as Eywa. The letter Heh mentioned earlier is feminine. Its gematria is 5. The Heh preceding the Yod (10, masculine) symbolizes her giving power over to the Yod, which transmits the power to the masculine Vav, and off again to the last Heh. The masculine is therefore locked within a feminine system. The despotism of the feminine. This is simply the kabbalistic depiction of a reality each of us is experiencing today. The natural sequence of this name is YHVH - Beginning with a masculine, than a feminine, masculine and ending with a feminine. This is a natural sequence - mirroring the natural dynamic evident in physical reality.

Liber - is the God os society. Athena has popped through Zeus' head and seems to be running matters. Man ignores theur creator, not realizing that our purpose in being created is to be LIKE our father, to imitate his attributes.

This knowledge is suppressed by the pagan overlords - aristocrats of our society.

i shall deal with your other posts tommorow

Please refrain from posting till i finish, or atleast half finsihed you wrote so much.
edit on 20-10-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 20 2010 @ 10:12 PM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Let’s first look at the country that Jung considered ‘Eden’, a nation where some women did not gain the vote until 1990! The man himself, numerous times abused his position by having sexual relations with his patients (female) as well as frequenting prostitutes, he was hardly in a position to set any margin of normalcy, since all his work is about him, even when it is about his patients, it is still about him and how brilliant he was to have discovered that, etc etc. And I suppose I should also now consider that his theory was based upon those of a Jew, whose genetic memory is programmed to see Mother’s as whores. Sure Jung made progress, massively really, all things considered, but only in understanding ‘self’. He was an extreme narcissist which may have helped in that respect, but then he halted it, ceased to guide, began to dictate and like Euripides, he chose money, fame and the power that allowed him to set out the means to realise Rockefeller’s plans for social engineering.

Jung, through the exploration and extirpation of his personal ‘Myth’, unlocked the key to ‘memory’ at the subconscious level, but he largely kept that key in his pocket and only brought it out for the highest bidder, to control others or often more specifically. in order to get his end away. He did far more harm than good.

edit on 20-10-2010 by KilgoreTrout because: Tickly tummies!



Do you think i mention Jung and "his theory" of Archetypes because im a fan of him? or because he was the first big name to articulate it?

I despise Carl Jung with a passion.

And again, could you cool it with the "jew" comments.

Kabbalah describes spiritual reality as it objectively is.

One can hardly read it and think differently. Maybe they dont like the psychology; given it emphasizes an objective reality, and pagan psychology ultimately is persuaded by the subjective, personal experience of reality rather than the objective one the creator created. G-d forbid us Jews actually listen to nature and see what she has to say.

Judaism raises the women higher. Go up to an educated religious Jewish women, like Tziporah Heller (An orthodox Jewish academic) and tell her shes being chained to the kitchen. No. Just as men have a passive female side, so too can women who are more masculinely focus persue a career in the outside world. It just has to be a minority, and not a majority; just as their exists a passive feminine side in every male, and vice versa.

In truth, however, her proper domain is with her children and family. She naturally excels in this area and thus is best suited for this purpose, as NATURE clearly has decreed, otherwise her nature wouldnt be so naturally reflected in creation.

My conscious mind, the analytic part which thinks and develops and grasps; couldnt do so without an outside power of conceptualization, the undifferentiated thought which provides the seed. Nothing would bloom in the world if it werent for the Rain - the masculine manifestation of the fecundating principle. Nature recieves this energy and transforms it, just as a women takes the seed of a man and transforms it in her womb into a living, breathing wonderous creation.

Thus. Women are best suited at home. To draw in the vitality sent through the father, the man, who works in the outside world.

Both are equally crucial. Both are equally present.

In truth, when someone is a 'helper' in the sense that G-d made Eve, it doesnt mean passive, but in truth means active, G-d being active vicariously through the inspiration the women provides for her husband. A women literally takes the raw potential of her man, and she helps him realize himself. A man is simply all potential until he meets his other half. And a women feels an inherent lack when she has nothing to motivate.

This is a beautiful complemtarity. Women are CLOSER to G-d, thus she remains shoeless. Why do you think moshe took his shoes off before G-d? This is hallow ground. You entering holiness. The priests in the holy temple werent allowed to wear shoes either. The 'shoe' is a concept for a body. Just as our soul "wears" bodies, so to we wear something on the lowest aspect of us that makes contact with the earth, our feet. To remove the shoe represents a singular attitude and focus towards the spiritual. When moshe goes before G-d, he focuses only on his spiritual self, and so removies his lower garment to initiate the relationship with the spiritual in the earthly realm. Women are regarded as closer to g-d, thats why theyre able to help man. Man needs to be realized. Also, note that in genesis Adam was created male and female. This is the language the Torah uses. Adam is not a man, but adrodgynous. Male and female. Both aspects completing and forming a greater whole. Both cannot be each other. Yes, the man has a passive feminine side. The idea in developing the feminine in Judaism is ones inner work. The masculine conversely is the outer, world focused. The outer therefore is INTELLECTUALLY oriented. Using his powers of Ego (that is, self consciousness) in OUTER relationships. Ones inner work is a relationship with ones inner powers, and is thus emotional in nature. One spiritually developed has to balance these aspects of his self in a harmonious way. The pagan converse of this idea is a complete blurring between sexes in the outer world, despite the natural distinctions the creation reveals to us(so certain forms of paganism are not so fond of nature, apparently). One must swallow up the other half of his side, or understood another way. Both the animal and the spiritual need to find expression in the self. Do you disagree with this jungian concept? i dont think so. This is balance? This is a unity? this is a keeping both as far apart as possible. The animal relinquished to materiality and the spiritual to spirituality. Both away. And at certain times, when one "feels" the other is given expression. Hence the many pagan festivals - which from the sounds of it, youve probably partaken in.

Also. dont think that i dont get there isnt an apparent unity in this idea'. Spirituality is 'humbled' - through the virgin birth" (which btw is enormously meaningful. The virgin birth ultimately refers to the separatenes between the masculine and feminine. The feminine being rooted in the void, chaos, 'primal matter' and is thus destruction (hence kali in hinduism being such a symbol of death) whereas the father being the creative principle, source of good, and Order. The Virgin gives birth to the man - the man spoken of here being the primordial man - Adam Kadmon, the image of the creator. This image is what man was formed from, and if this image is 'born' through a virign birth, whats implied than is that both aspects, the creative father and the destructive mother are inherent properties of man. This is the real idea behind the virgin birth, and its an essential tenet of christianity - which was simply a creation of the pagan romans who romantized this image as Jesus to perpetuate their ideology into a new aeon. The virgin birth is paganism. Its the belief in the inherent 'virginity' and 'purity' of mans lower, animals lusts) to partake of matter. therefore they are united. Spirituality infused in matter, mabn partaking of matter to appreciate spirituality. Now, does this mirror the most primal dynamic? of a giving G-d and a recieving creation? Oh right. we werent created they will argue, as the demons in Paradise lost argued. We have always been existing. But wait. The universe has a point of origin called the big bang. Lets 'fix' this problem by conjecturing a constant expanding and imploding universe that continues this process ad infinitum.

You pagans are completely out there. No logic. Physical sciences shows a point of origin. The Bible says that. Therefore, the 'giver' G-d, is our source. Our job is to recieve his goodness and reflect it back through service.

Also, This is the same reason all ancients took off their shoes in an area they regarded as holy. The natives of north america never wore foot gear because they wanted to be in constant contact with the earth. But that could also explain why they never rose above the earth - not ever analyzing it in an objective manner - which is why science was born from a christian west that was inherently inspired by its Jewish substratum which emphasized an objective morality, and thus an objective analysis of reality. Unlike the fantasy and magic obessed pagans.

Your ignorance of Judaism - and your sharp tongue, dont seem to go together.

I am enjoying your insight into Greek thought. but. Im not so much getting the logic of half of what your saying.

How could you for instance regard Jews as Conformists. By defintion, conformists are people who conform to their surroundings. Jews.. Conform? Is that why they walk in black suits and try to separate themselves as far as possible from the corrupt, pagan aspects of their host culture? Most Orthodox Jews dont even own TV's (mighty healthy for the soul aswell). their days are filled with a joy and simplicity that most in the west have forgotten. I envy those who can live this way.
edit on 20-10-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 04:04 PM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


I don't mind having to defend my honour, that seems to be par for my course, but pulling the feminist card, now that is downright insulting. Really, really poor reasoning there. I apologise, but my time is very precious, your replies have been most informative, but I'm a little bored of the judgementalism that accompanies them, I fear that what I thought was enthusiasm may in actuality be fundamentalism.

Thank you for your time, I learnt a great deal.

Best wishes
KT



posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 11:01 PM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
reply to post by dontreally
 


I don't mind having to defend my honour, that seems to be par for my course, but pulling the feminist card, now that is downright insulting. Really, really poor reasoning there. I apologise, but my time is very precious, your replies have been most informative, but I'm a little bored of the judgementalism that accompanies them, I fear that what I thought was enthusiasm may in actuality be fundamentalism.

Thank you for your time, I learnt a great deal.

Best wishes
KT



Fundamentalism?

What the hell does that mean?

Is your current view, not also fundamentalism?

Are you not defending a set of views that are fundamental to your personal philosophy?

If you mean some orthodox fundamentalism, the type youd find in christianity. I resent that.

Kabbalah - mysticism, is the corner stone of all Jewish thought. Bible, Mishna, Talmud, Midrash, and of course the many kabbalistic works.

The philosophy im conveying is also based on an objective appreciation of reality.

Do we not discern opposites? Is not the essential relationship between them active and passive. One giving, the other recieiving?

This is basic to kabbalistic and all mystical thought. The masculine is the giving, the feminine the receiving. Hence our common understanding of G-d as a man and nature as a woman.

So what is fundamental about my views? The fact that i discern a relationship in creation between masculine and feminine forces? The feminine passive to the role of the active, which acts upon it. The feminine recieving and expressing what the masculine potential imparts.

So because I consider - and Judaism considers, a reality that depends on the human imitiation of this divine dynamic which the creator - speaker of all reality, inserted in the nature he created. This level of the female in Kabbalah is called Elohim (powers). This refers to all the spiritual powers of creation. Its gematria is the same as HaTeva 86, nature. This sorta consistency is throughout the Hebrew language. Wonderous. To say the least.

I wasnt trying to offend you by calling you a feminist, but i am somewhat taken aback by you finding the label as offensive. Should what you believe be considered normal, and forward? So on a purely taboo level, my holding to conservative, traditional beliefs, that woman have a certain role as do men, that im completely out of line call you something that clearly, up till this point in our discussion is a very relevant topic to you. You made a big deal about the 'whore of babylon' even though that isnt even a Jewish idea. Judaism honors its woman and unlike in Islam you never ever hear of orthodox Jews hurting their wives, G-d forbid. Jewish woman have completely control. And in fact, the Talmud itself describes an incident where a sage was late for a gathering because his wife angry with him. Jewish woman are a very good example of how much honorred they are by their children and husband. But, they also embrace their unique role.

To your greek, western, senses, thats offensive.People should be allowed to do what they will. Well. I think that shows whos listening to nature. Judaism listens to G-ds speech through nature. The divine presence speaks to man, and we are supposed to listen. Its in our nature to possess the mental faculties to discern principles about reality. Its also in our nature to appreciate right and wrong. Will we be faithful to that knowledge? To this completely natural inclination, all civilized human beings are born with? We can thank Jews for this dimension of Human consciousness. Paganism seeks to undo this. As Hitler was so adament about.

In any case. Im sorry for offending you. I should keep away from labeling. But - you did make a few offensive comments earlier about Jews, using it in a pejorative way.

Did i end the conversation after you did that? I ignored it. Im interested in sharing my views and see what you have to say. I also enjoyed reading your point of view, despite what i think of it. Youre an interesting person.



posted on Oct, 23 2010 @ 01:21 AM
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Originally posted by luxordelphi
OP: I'm fascinated with the original speculation of your thread. I've looked up to refresh my memory the flags and/or insignia of: Switzerland, The Red Cross, The Order of Malta, The Knights Templar and The Hospitaliers. Rather startling. At first glance and first speculation I'd say this and the 26 divisions in Switzerland are by human device and not divine chance. Have to say further that in leaving Switzerland alone perhaps the everchanging yet intimately related rulerships of the world knew something we didn't. Perhaps the secrets of the Templars didn't go to Portugal and Scotland as is rumored but went instead here.


The Knights Templars were the first bankers.

The Crusades had many nobles traveling from France who needed a way to travel and not carry gold or other values.

They turned the money over to them and received a account.

On the way to the Holy lands they could purchase goods and such from this account.

Richard the First(The Lionheart) played a part in this set up.

Switzerland was nothing more than a bunch of peaceful farmer types when mysteriously a group of men showed up and settled there.

They taught the Swiss how to fight for themselves(WELL) and turned the country in to a international banking powerhouse.

They financed Columbus and the Spanish conquest and expasion to the new world.

Look at Cumbus ships sails they were part of the Knights Templar's sailing fleet(yes they had one)

All the riches brought back to Spain a percentage went back to the Templar bank.

The country remained neutral so they could loan any side in a conflict the money t oindustrialize to wage war.

The Templar's learned war is good for the banking business.

ALL of Europe's royals are related WW1 was cousins fighting cousins,the King of England,Kaiser of Germany and the Czar of Russia all cousins of each other.

Swizerland and the kingdoms,duchys and all those little areas that make it up now were all at one time a part of France ,Germany,Austria or Italy.

I could go on from just the endless hours doing research on the Knights Templar.

Luxembourg was mentioned on here look at their flag.

Descended from Richard the Lionheart.

Look at the flag of the province Turin,Italy is in.

The cross of the Knights Templar.

Research who controlled the area during the period of the middle ages.

Why did the "shroud" appear in France first and then end up in Turin?

Whose image is really on the shroud?

It dates to the area around Jerusalem around 1100 A.D. far younger than the Jesus era.

Who was the first "king of Jerusalem and how did he die and where?

Check out the participants of the 1st Crusades and follow their families through the years.

The Benedictine order helped hide the Knights Templar.

And the name of the first German Pope?

The Knights Templar always traveled incognito when they traveled from the Holy Land back to their area of Europe because every one was area off their wealth.

This was after Richard The Lionhearted was captured and held for ranson.

But they did travel as a Knight.

A knight Hospitalier which had a black cross not a red one.

Why?

The Knights Hospitallier had a high incidence of leprosy and nobody would mess with them..
edit on 23-10-2010 by Oneolddude because: added



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