Switzerland 4 rivers

reply to post by dontreally


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Knowledge and sense exists everywhere. Place your bets.

reply to post by dontreally


dude...as some who has been an avid student and practioner of the Mysteries (including Qabalah), your interpretation on why the Sephira "fit" into each of the continents was heavily weighted in subjectivity. I find that I agree with most of the things you post on the board - in relation to Qabalah - but that was just over the top.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Switzerland is strategically important, as in it is easy to defend and hard to attack

Can you please explain how Switzerland is strategically important and why it is easy to defend.

Err.. You couldn't be more wrong I'm afraid. There's a reason why this nation has been virtually untouched by any invading force (ask Hannibal).

Originally posted by CIAGypsy
reply to post by dontreally

 

dude...as some who has been an avid student and practioner of the Mysteries (including Qabalah), your interpretation on why the Sephira "fit" into each of the continents was heavily weighted in subjectivity. I find that I agree with most of the things you post on the board - in relation to Qabalah - but that was just over the top.

That’s not my ‘theory’ but that of Rav Yitchack Ginsburgh, considered by many the leading kabbalist of our generation. And my explanation is think did a decent job explaining the correspondences. The continents manifest the same dynamism as the divine reality its patterned after. Our earth is a reflection of the ‘higher’ abstract world. The sefirot are of this reality, and thus, all of reality is patterned is some shape or fashion by the sefirot. This is magnificently visible in the 7 continents and 3 oceans of our world.
You may have read a few books on kabbalah, but I doubt you read Hebrew or Aramaic, or have even been formally instructed in the study of Kabbalah (not the q – which implies the gnostic/hermetic corruption of kabbalah popularized by Eliphas levi, crowley etc) ie Zohar, Etz Chaim, etc.
If you understood the nature, the REAL nature of each sefirah, its hard to deny the clear correspondences established by Rabbi Ginsburgh. Hokmah is the ‘wide’ holistic consciousness – paralleling the pacific(which means peaceful) ocean – which is the widest of all the oceans. This is an objective correlation. Binah conversely is logical, differentiated. Thus, it can be seen to correspond to the atlantic ocean, which is known for its treacherous waters. This increased activity also parallels binah which is the beginning of differentiation and thus mental activity. Binah breaks apart (hence binah, from Bein “between”) as the bustling waves of the atlantic break against each other. Also, the atlantic is long, whereas the pacific is wide. The former implies a lowering of consciousness, whereas the latter implies a widening . Again, another fair and rational correspondence.

The others are also fairly obvious. The triad of chesed, gevurah and tiferet are the 3 continents of Asia (which is expansive as Chesed – which is also called Gedulah – ‘great – Asia is also the largest continent) Africa (which is hot, like gevurah, implying strength, might, also judgement) and Tiferet which unlike Africa, which is separated from the Euroasian continent by a land bridge (the Tzimtzum/constriction which characterizes the nature of Gevurah ‘restriction’) is totally connected to Chesed, Asia. Tiferet is the perfection of Chesed, Asia, and gevurah, Africa. But Tiferet is mainly an extension of chesed, as explained in kabbalistic literature, just as Europe is an extension of Asia.

And then the lower triad, Netzach, Hod and Yesod are North America, South America and Australia. In the sefirotic model, Netach and Hod are usually coupled together, being considered as the two legs, or the two kidneys, testicals . They are two sides, just as North American and south America are united.. Interestingly, Netach is associated with the direction of up, and hod with down. This is evident is the up/down orientation of the Americas. Spiritually, Netzach means ‘dominance’ its an OUTER focused spiritual function. Netzach seeks to Dominate, it therefore is the outer manifestation of Chesed. AMERICA HAS DOMINATED The world. No nation on earth has manifested the quality of Netzach like America has. Its quite amazing. Conversely, hod is simplistic, obsequious to external sources, in this case, most manifestly, America.

Yesod is called ‘Kol’ in kabbalistic writings. It is everything, all the higher sefirot above it pooled in one sefirah. Yesod therefore is the sphere which transmits the energy of the spiritual creation to the sefirah of malkhut, the receptacle. Yesod therefore conveys a great range of spiritual powers, just like Australia possesses a great range of wildlife, climatic variety. Australia, is also completely separate from the other continents, by itself, as Yesod is separate from the other sefirot.
Malkhut receives nothing of its own and so, it perfectly corresponds to Antarctica. This period we live in is called the ‘galut’ exile, in Jewish thinking. Therefore, malkhut is frozen, inactive, waiting to receive and return the vitality given to it from the higher sefirot. This will occur in the messianic era where the waters (Antarctica) of Malkhut will defrost and arouse the higher waters of the 9 upper sefirot. This will than mark the union between G-d and mankind, G-d and his Shekina and a period of peace.

This is a beautifully consistent model to kabbalah, the sefirot and in my opinion entirely objective. It wasnt my creation, but that of one of the most learned sages of kabbalah today. Heres his much more comprehensive article on it.
www.inner.org...

reply to post by dontreally


Sefira means Book. So how any Book can fit into anything except to make something stick or allow yourself to get higher baffles me...

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
reply to post by dontreally

 

Sefira means Book. So how any Book can fit into anything except to make something stick or allow yourself to get higher baffles me...

I really hope your joking.

Originally posted by dontreally

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
reply to post by dontreally

 

Sefira means Book. So how any Book can fit into anything except to make something stick or allow yourself to get higher baffles me...

I really hope your joking.

Please tell me what else your holy books can be used for! They're thick because they couldn't tell it in a word. Exactly Oat Oerds Offended you.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic

Originally posted by dontreally

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
reply to post by dontreally

 

Sefira means Book. So how any Book can fit into anything except to make something stick or allow yourself to get higher baffles me...

I really hope your joking.

Please tell me what else your holy books can be used for! They're thick because they couldn't tell it in a word. Exactly Oat Oerds Offended you.

Talmud Bavli comes in 73 volumes
Talmud Yerushalami as 8 volumes.

Along with the Mishna, 18 volumes

Together the Talmudic writings is close to 100 volumes.

Thats alot of reading!

Takes years to get through it.

And than you add the many Midrashim (mystical homilies) which are so many... and you have hundreds of volumes of just the most basic Rabbinic writings. Thats not even taking into account the kabbalists, rashi, maimonides, Nachmanides......

double post.

Originally posted by dontreally
Talmud Bavli comes in 73 volumes
Talmud Yerushalami as 8 volumes.

Along with the Mishna, 18 volumes

Together the Talmudic writings is close to 100 volumes.

Thats alot of reading!

Takes years to get through it.

And than you add the many Midrashim (mystical homilies) which are so many... and you have hundreds of volumes of just the most basic Rabbinic writings. Thats not even taking into account the kabbalists, rashi, maimonides, Nachmanides......

Originally posted by dontreally
double post.

edit on 5-10-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)

"When words are many, sin is not absent, but he who holds his tongue is wise."

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


Or do you say that Sefer (SFR) means something else than "Book"?

open.spotify.com...

Better listen to this.... And think.....

reply to post by dontreally


First of all, you have NO IDEA what my background is on Qabalah or who my teachers have been. Your statements that I "must have read a few books" shows your arrogance. Furthermore, anyone who knows anything about Qabalah or Kabbalah or Cabala knows how "traditionalists" like yourself think they know so much more than anyone else who studies the wisdom. Your claims of how we have somehow "bastardized" this knowledge of the mysteries seems to imply that you are a level or have insight above everyone else. Arguing over technical ideology between your "Kabbalah" and mine is about as useless as arguing over whether Jesus was the son of God or not. Any given point has no meaning or value to the person on the opposite side...and yet, neither is wrong. Wars have been fought over such stupidity as technical ideology. I have seen you come into numerous threads and throw your intellectual weight around where it concerns Qabalistic knowledge; yet you seem to show a disconcerting lack of aptitude for the spiritual understanding of the same. Your ego shall be your downfall.....

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

Or do you say that Sefer (SFR) means something else than "Book"?

open.spotify.com...

Better listen to this.... And think.....

edit on 5/10/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic because: Added song

Man, learn Hebrew before you start lecturing me.

The root Sefer has many many meanings. In essence, since all hebrew roots point to the essence of things, a book is a informative device. It contains information. Likewise, a sephira, imagined as a 'sphere' is a specific content with its own programmed information, as such a 'seifrah' acts as a book, written by the almighty that governs the phenomena of the revealed world.

Originally posted by CIAGypsy
reply to post by dontreally

 

First of all, you have NO IDEA what my background is on Qabalah or who my teachers have been. Your statements that I "must have read a few books" shows your arrogance. Furthermore, anyone who knows anything about Qabalah or Kabbalah or Cabala knows how "traditionalists" like yourself think they know so much more than anyone else who studies the wisdom. Your claims of how we have somehow "bastardized" this knowledge of the mysteries seems to imply that you are a level or have insight above everyone else. Arguing over technical ideology between your "Kabbalah" and mine is about as useless as arguing over whether Jesus was the son of God or not. Any given point has no meaning or value to the person on the opposite side...and yet, neither is wrong. Wars have been fought over such stupidity as technical ideology. I have seen you come into numerous threads and throw your intellectual weight around where it concerns Qabalistic knowledge; yet you seem to show a disconcerting lack of aptitude for the spiritual understanding of the same. Your ego shall be your downfall.....

Well in your earlier post, you refered to all the sefirot - in the plural, as 'sefirah' which is singular. Because of that obvious error i naturally assumed you have a very slim knowledge of Hebrew.

Secondly, Zohar, Etz Chaim (the key to undersyanding zohar) the cornerstone texts of Kabbalah, were written by Jews - Rabbinic Figures.

Taking their prophetic wisdom and appropriating it to your own philosophical views is 'corruption' in every sense of the term - of the inner wisdom of Torah. For instance, Etz Chaim explains Zohar, and without Etz chaim Zohar has no meaning, aside from being a tantalizing book of prose. Pri Etz Chaim, which discusses the spiritual applications of the knowledge of Etz Chaim, which in itself delinates Zohar,means 'the fruit of teh tree of life'. Kabbalah is not meant to be separated from Judaism. The fruits of the tree of life - kabbalah, are the mitzvot, divine APPLICATION of the knowledge. Judaism is one simple whole. Its inner structure is kabbalah, and its utter structure, study, prayer, ritual, and most of all, positive actions with others, G-d and creation. These are called 'mitvot'. This is also the reason why kabbalah was practically unknown outside Jewish circles before the 12th century. It was very tightly kept hidden.

Im sorry for coming off as arrogant, but your criticisms were tenuous. This proposal comes from one of the most learned sages in Kabbalah alive today and the relationship between the Sefirot and the geography of the earth i think speaks for itself to any real student of Kabbalah - who takes it for more than being a 'science picked up babylon' which of course is patently absurd. No religion is ever separated from their esoteric dimension. Why is it assumed that Jews "took" their own esoteric knowledge from a forgeigh. Perhaps, maybe, the Jews pciked up a few things in babylon, but the original tradition itself, the interpretation of Torah, the holiness of the hebrew language, and its meaning, has always remained intact.

Technically, when non jews study kabbalah they read it from foreign sources. Not original Hebrew sources. They also dont learn the other texts that are considered preliminary to Kabbalah, or atleast studied in combination with Kabbalah (Talmud, Mishna, Midrash, Rashi, Maimonides, halakah etc) and most of all they have a painful lack of erudition in Hebrew, or the Tanakh. Their interest solely is in banking off the knowledge.

Kabbalah is the gematria of Naviah and Hokmah, prophecy and wisdom. One needs both qualities in order to recieve (the meaning of kabbalah) divine guidance in his life. Naviah implies an openness to spiritual reality, and wisdom implies Torah.

Anyways, this is what i frequently encounter with gentiles who 'study kabbalah'. Their study is usually cursory and means 10 or 15 books read on the subject. Its not daily 2-4 hours of Hebrew study in order to master the language. Clearly many dont appreciate the principal in Judaism that Hebrew is the 'language of creation'. Unlike in other languages, the vessel - the word, and the concept - the light are not separated. One is the actual reflection of the latter. The pronounciations are the vibrations or 'strings' which move that particular reality.

If you dont want to disagree with my belief that this world is patterned after the 10 sefirot (as kabbalah in itself attempts to explain) than fine. Just dont call it subjective when many of the dynamics and qualities being describd for each sefirah is paralled by the physical geography of Earth. Every single example revealed a solid objective correspondence between cause and effect, sefirah and its revelation. The Earth is one organic whole, likewise the sefirot.

reply to post by dontreally


Yes, Switzerland seems to be a magical country.

They must be doing something right, you would think.

Maybe the secret is staying out of warfare? Every country which engages in warfare commits crimes against humanity, but Switzerland does not.

Except for the Swiss banks which conceal the multi-millions of evil-doers. And thereby make a fortune themselves.

So, Switzerland is not so pure after all.

reply to post by dontreally


While I will certainly agree with you that KABBALAH has a Jewish origin, I would argue that the Jewish rabbis are the only legitimate cornerstone of Qabalistic wisdom. The basis for Qabalah is that any person can gain enlightenment by following the 32 paths of wisdom. No one in these commentaries does it say that only Jewish rabbis or those taught by specific Jewish rabbis can understand or learn this wisdom. Others have followed the paths and learned wisdom which is just as accurate and relevant as the sources you claim. Furthermore because the journey undertaken is a PERSONAL one, anything learned by the aspirant will be subjective to that person...although their will certainly be aspects which are standard archetypes for each path/sephira.

There is more than I wish to say on this subject but...being at work...I don't have the time right at this moment. I shall be back soon to further debate this topic with you.

Originally posted by CIAGypsy
reply to post by dontreally

 

While I will certainly agree with you that KABBALAH has a Jewish origin, I would argue that the Jewish rabbis are the only legitimate cornerstone of Qabalistic wisdom. The basis for Qabalah is that any person can gain enlightenment by following the 32 paths of wisdom. No one in these commentaries does it say that only Jewish rabbis or those taught by specific Jewish rabbis can understand or learn this wisdom. Others have followed the paths and learned wisdom which is just as accurate and relevant as the sources you claim. Furthermore because the journey undertaken is a PERSONAL one, anything learned by the aspirant will be subjective to that person...although their will certainly be aspects which are standard archetypes for each path/sephira.

There is more than I wish to say on this subject but...being at work...I don't have the time right at this moment. I shall be back soon to further debate this topic with you.

Im not debating the feasibility for one not acquainted with Hebrew and Kabbalah to appreciate fragments of Kabbalistic ideas.

But to say "you know kabbalah" based on the little that you know, is misleading...Especially to yourself.

Kabbalah is an ENORMOUS subject. Its not as simple as the '32 paths of wisdom' although that definitely is an important feature of the Jewish mystics path. That initself is something that only become relevant after someone has properly honed his power of judgement. Hence in Judaism one should study Talmud (from the root "lamed' to learn) which in itself is the mystical tool used to refine and hone the conscious, logical/analytical mind. This prepares one for the mysteries of the deeper kabbalah, Merkava, and the kabbalah of the Ari. Without this study, one becomes liable to be misled by his assumptions, his OWN perspective, as opposed to the objective reality beyond, which talmud, seeks to do in preparing one for the deeper mysteries.

Beyond this, Kabbalah study without a knowledge of Hebrew seems like an oxymoron to me. Its like claiming knowledge of physics because your acquainted with the 'philosophy' which physics pursues, but completely ignorant of the means by which they arrive there ie mathematics.. In kabbalah, Hebrew, the means, is as important as the destination - the knowledge. Hebrew itself IS the knowledge which one has to learn so he can know the mind, 'heart' of G-d. In doing so one can properly traverse the 32 paths without being diverted to the right or the left - a metaphor for being mislead by false impressions.

Also, Kabbalah is the inner mysteries of the torah, which are the inner mysteries of G-ds creation. Kabbalah is also usually broken up into 3 fields of a distinct nature. Theoretical - which i dont know if youve studied thoroughly enough. Meditative, which deals very often with meditation on Hebrew words, letters - similar to in Eastern religions. Also, the 'shapes' of hebrew letters depict divine energies. The mystic meditates on these forms to arouse them in himself. And, finally, and to many most interestingly, Kabbalah is magical. The hebrew language is the medium by which G-d created the world. As such, Hebrew can manipulate the fundamental laws by which creation functions. This is prohibitted by Jewish law, but, certain gentile covens are clearly into these things (golden dawn, thelema, masonry, UU etc). Suffice to say, its enormously powerful. You can get a taste of these ideas in Aryeh Kaplans translation of Sefer Yetzriah. Another powerful method is the ShemHamphoresh, which is known as the '72 name of G-d'. Encoded within the verse in Exodus where Moshe parts the Reed Sea, is the method by which one 'parts' through the spiritual sea of creation. The verse contains 72 triplets, 216 letters, each signifying a different 'power' by which creation is brought about. Moshe was not only able to manipulate it, but he commanded them by simply speaking. His mind was so united with the creator that creation literally responded to his will

I only have a second to post before I head out the door...but I had to post. Again, you make a lot of assumptions about what I know or don't know. You seem to keep making this insinuation that I don't know Hebrew or haven't studied other texts (such as Talmud, etc...). I don't know why you feel the compulsion to make these statements when you have NO IDEA whether they are true or not unless you have made ASSUMPTIONS. However, they would be FALSE assumptions.

I'm hoping to take a half day off of work tomorrow and hope to finally have time to fully respond to your ridiculous and pompous statements.

OP: I'm fascinated with the original speculation of your thread. I've looked up to refresh my memory the flags and/or insignia of: Switzerland, The Red Cross, The Order of Malta, The Knights Templar and The Hospitaliers. Rather startling. At first glance and first speculation I'd say this and the 26 divisions in Switzerland are by human device and not divine chance. Have to say further that in leaving Switzerland alone perhaps the everchanging yet intimately related rulerships of the world knew something we didn't. Perhaps the secrets of the Templars didn't go to Portugal and Scotland as is rumored but went instead here.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Switzerland is strategically important, as in it is easy to defend and hard to attack

Can you please explain how Switzerland is strategically important and why it is easy to defend.

Err.. You couldn't be more wrong I'm afraid. There's a reason why this nation has been virtually untouched by any invading force (ask Hannibal).

I may very well be wrong, I work principly on instinct. You do take me slightly out of context though, it is strategically important for different reasons now admittedly, slightly. I was talking about why it was originally settled, in which case we are talking about a lush plateau enclosed by mountains with defendable passes, good clean water supplies, grazing, caves or woodland, perhaps both, water supplies. The kind of things a tribe needs. It flourished because it is where two continents have collided and therefore there was alluvial gold in them there hills, among many other minerals, metals, and crystals, that is why the Celts were there, and that is why the Romans took it. It was on a primary trade route particularly important through to the Middle Ages,. Because of the Crusades it gained significance as a banking centre, which is really why it is strategically important now and reasonably easy to defend. As long as Switzerland exists independent states in Europes exists. Just look at a topologically map. During the second world war no area was more hotly contested to ensure that neutrality was maintained and Switzerland very successfully ensured that 11 Luftwaffe planes were forced down when they intruded into their air space.

I've shown you mine...