mosque near ground zero greenlighted

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by LurkingSleipner
I never said American Muslims didn't suffer. please don't put words in my mouth or thread that aren't my own. Since your so concerned with others suffering why is it you single out new york citizens?

Your post indicated that this Mosque is a further pain to those that suffered from 911. I pointed out that Muslims also suffered from that. Seems like you missed that point.

I see no correlation between the two and it seems only meant as a distraction from our current discussion, a literal chewbacca defense.

The only distraction was that it wasn't only white and black Americans that suffered from this event. I'm sure you have complete empathy for the every day American Muslim CITIZEN that suffered as well.

As to pointing out NYers, it's because they don't have a problem with this. You didn't answer my question. Are you a NYer?

[edit on 5-8-2010 by intrepid]

It seems were miss communicating here or you may be inferring things from my post. I'm not sure which, but I'm not labeling what type of American the suffering are, there are indeed those who have suffered who are not American, but again I'm not labeling those who have and distinguishing their race, creed, or culture.

By diverting attention from your distractions you seem so fond to post and inferring that I am labeling people isn't exactly a good argument or debate, basically your playing the race card by saying I'm not giving distinction to individuals based on the labels you have stated who are now or have experienced pain or suffering due to the tragic events.

Where have you heard New Yorkers have no problem? The MSM maybe?
Have you questioned every single person in NY, if not then your statement that they ave no problem is null as it lacks fact and truth.

As to your question, I've told another poster here this and will tell you the same. Read the Terms and Conditions for ATS section 1 E sub-section 2 and section 1 the first sub paragraph. You're not supposed to solicit personal info from members asking a member where they live seems like personal info to me.

Btw for being from Canada you sure know a lot about every single individual American citizens daily life. Or is that just an assumption that I read generalizing the American citizens daily life based on limited statistics or limited information?

Maybe the point was missed by you. This thread is about a mosque being built. Obviously the suffering of Muslims is important to understand and alleviate but then so to are those who suffered from the events at ground zero which is the point of this thread.

reply to post by intrepid


Regardless that it's none of your business where I'm from, it's not pertinent to the topic. And seeing as how I don't wish to discuss it it's not a refusal, you have no reason to ask. and yes it is personal information which is covered under the T&C as a previous staff member you should know better than to ask for that information.

[edit on 5-8-2010 by LurkingSleipner]

Originally posted by intrepid
reply to post by sweetliberty

 

I believe in logic. Not the MSM or any other agency that tell me what to think.

Btw, I'm Canadian. I have no dog in the ridiculous left/right fight.

Why are you assuming I'm MSM learned

He is a man. Men in general get into that kind of mood and blow hot air like that.

I think he was exhaulting himself..... it's a guy thing Not a MSM thing

Canadian? Well Canadians are people too.....

reply to post by LurkingSleipner


You are saying a lot without saying anything. I am not the topic. You are not the topic. You refuse to answer questions about the topic. And don't quote the T&C to me. I was a staffer for 6 years. Saying what city you are from is hardly data mining. Not saying it IS obfuscation though.

Are you a NYer?

Originally posted by sweetliberty
It's an article where he dreams we are being hit by missles and he suffers.

This is not too surprising. Since 9/11 I've had many dreams that we are being hit by missiles, and I was over three miles away from the WTC when it happened.

Perhaps Bush, Obama, Palin, Robertson, et al. have had the same dreams.

Playing the sensitivity card? Maybe so -- the imam is clearly a man with good communications skills.

I'm more interested in what they do about it -- erode our civil liberties or try to build interfaith communications and provide valuable services to the Tribeca community?

Originally posted by intrepid
reply to post by LurkingSleipner

 

You are saying a lot without saying anything. I am not the topic. You are not the topic. You refuse to answer questions about the topic. And don't quote the T&C to me. I was a staffer for 6 years. Saying what city you are from is hardly data mining. Not saying it IS obfuscation though.

Are you a NYer?

Are you saying NYer's are like that? Well I have to agree! They are somethin' huh!

Communication, sometimes it a hard one to handle.

Originally posted by sweetliberty
Why are you assuming I'm MSM learned

Did I even imply that? No.

He is a man. Men in general get into that kind of mood and blow hot air like that.

I think he was exhaulting himself..... it's a guy thing Not a MSM thing

Cool, as long as we know this is merely opinion.

Canadian? Well Canadians are people too.....

Yes we are. We can think too. I know that's a hard concept but it's true. Unfortunately with all this global warming it's getting difficult for us to keep the computers running half of the year. You know? Melting igloos and all.

Intrepid it seems that we may have begun our debate on the wrong foot, I apologize for anything that seemed to be a personal attack. My opinion on the topic at hand is easy to determine based on my posts. I believe that the mosque should be built so they may practice their religion but despite that i also believe we should show respect to the loss of life and in memorium respect the location of ground zero for the benefit if future generations and for those who have already lived.

Many Americans I come into contact daily,mostly youths but some adults as well, are not very concerned with the welfare or well being of others and seek simply to survive and provide either for themselves or their family. So as to set myself apart from a more oft then not self serving populace I attempt to strive for the well-being of those who cannot put their voice out there. Either because they are not very eloquent or are not accomplished in public speaking or discourse. But I digress I think we can move forward in a civil discussion to properly debate the topic.

P.S- I do love Canada, I haven't had much time as I used to to visit. But it is a very beautiful country.

[edit on 5-8-2010 by LurkingSleipner]

Originally posted by americandingbat

I'm more interested in what they do about it -- erode our civil liberties or try to build interfaith communications and provide valuable services to the Tribeca community?

Im sorry, I'm not sure exactly what you're saying.

What I think you said was your more interested in what may happen to your community once they have built the mosque/center. That you are concerned about the future effects in your community, your not sure how it will turn out in the future?


Best Regards,
sl

reply to post by sweetliberty


I think they were differentiating between the erosion of liberties by incorporating many publicly known cultural/religious laws and the opposite of the spectrum creating public outreach through community based endeavors.

I may be wrong but that is what it sounded like to me :S

reply to post by LurkingSleipner


I DO see your point of view. My problem is that America has changed and not for the better. Let me do the math. I've been to 6 states and have met amazing people. I just want to see America be what it used to be like. One without fear. One of tolerance and understanding. One that was PROUD. And deservedly so.

Originally posted by intrepid
reply to post by LurkingSleipner

 

I DO see your point of view. My problem is that America has changed and not for the better. Let me do the math. I've been to 6 states and have met amazing people. I just want to see America be what it used to be like. One without fear. One of tolerance and understanding. One that was PROUD. And deservedly so.

I can understand that sentiment as I too share it. We were once a great nation one that was an example to lead by. But now it seems were taking pro-tips from some rather unsavory places and following bad examples of other nations past and present. But rest assured there are many Americans myself included who will do our best to try and succeed in that endeavor to regain our better days.

Originally posted by LurkingSleipner
I think they were differentiating between the erosion of liberties by incorporating many publicly known cultural/religious laws and the opposite of the spectrum creating public outreach through community based endeavors.

Yes, that's pretty much what I meant.

I was trying to answer the question posed by sweetliberty about how we would interpret a couple of sentences if it had been Bush, Obama, Palin, etc who said them instead.

The answer: I would interpret them based on what else that person said and did, and what use they were trying to make of the emotions appealed to.

I would prefer that the pain of 9/11 be used to build understanding than to erode our freedoms.

reply to post by nocents


Mark my word - NO Teamster will ever set foot on the construction site. I wonder who they think they are going to get to build this place.

Originally posted by americandingbat

I'm more interested in what they do about it -- erode our civil liberties or try to build interfaith communications and provide valuable services to the Tribeca community?

I think I understand now. Your right and there's no time like the present to start asking those questions. Not only here on ATS but there in the community too.

I'm not so blind as to think the mosque/center isn't going to be built at that location. It will be. Actually it's our laws that will prevail.

Is it right for Mr. Sensitive Rauf to cause such diversity such blatant disregard for the victims who were murdered so close to that location? Nope!
When it comes to humanity, its the blind (Rauf) leading the blind (the one's who think it's the great medicine to heal wounds)...
So your concerns are warranted because Raul and others have the law on their side and it's just a matter of time.

I say we have no choice but to let go of the baby so he can live.

I hope and pray we find it in our hearts to forgive to forgive da bastads......(plural because the government played a role in this and they know we know

Maybe if we love ourselves and our nation, our neighbors enough, we can welcome them with open arms

Personally (INTREPED..that means IMO...) I hope we roll out the red carpet and we don't injure their building, their homes, their lives.

When the real Mother has to let go of the child for the sake of life..... she lets go.

So, maybe they will guard us just as well. Maybe not but I'd rather they draw first blood then us.

If your community goes to hell, I hope the community screams at the top of their lungs for their rights.

Best Regards,
sl

Originally posted by americandingbat
I would prefer that the pain of 9/11 be used to build understanding than to erode our freedoms.

Ben agrees with you:

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

* This was written by Franklin, with quotation marks but almost certainly his original thought, sometime shortly before February 17, 1775 as part of his notes for a proposition at the Pennsylvania Assembly, as published in Memoirs of the life and writings of Benjamin Franklin (1818).

en.wikiquote.org...

reply to post by sweetliberty


Have faith my friend. I don't think America is dead. It's just been in a fog. Once that fog clears, with our help hopefully, America will be what it once was. Too damn many good people there for it to go into the crapper. That may mean civil distress though and you guys do it better than everyone. Acceptance.

reply to post by intrepid


Oh the tears we shed
It hurts!

reply to post by sweetliberty


America was built on tears. I can go into details if you like about the immigrants and what they had to do.

America is also built on sweat and innovation. That's missing. We're debating a mosque in NY, which matters to a few that matter and miss the mark again. Like I said, have faith. I have faith in my American cousins. There have been worse times before and you're still there. It will continue to be so.

Originally posted by sweetliberty
I think I understand now. Your right and there's no time like the present to start asking those questions. ... Is it right for Mr. Sensitive Rauf to cause such diversity such blatant disregard for the victims who were murdered so close to that location? Nope!

Either you still don't understand what I'm saying or you're deliberately twisting my words to support your point of view

Yes, it is absolutely right for this spiritual leader to build a bigger mosque in the neighborhood that he has been serving for 27 years.

It is pretty darn cool that he wants to throw in a community center as well.

If your community goes to hell, I hope the community screams at the top of their lungs for their rights.

It often seems that the people who are most vocally against this community center think New York went to hell long ago.

I'm not concerned about Tribeca though. It did go to hell almost nine years ago and made it through. It's a great, vibrant neighborhood.

When I refer to those who have used the emotions surrounding 9/11 to erode our civil liberties I primarily mean the Bush administration, and the Obama administration for failing to restore them. Using them for political gain: many, including Palin but also Giuliani. It's been going on a long time.


edit for verb tense, italics

[edit on 8/5/2010 by americandingbat]

reply to post by americandingbat

...or you're deliberately twisting my words to support your point of view

Nah, I have better things in life to do than to deliberately twist your words or anybody elses for that matter!

Chalk it off to misunderstanding please.

I have a different view and opinion as you do I guess and there's nothing wrong with that

Our strength is in diversity.

What we both hope for in the end is the same I think and thats what's important.

Best Regards,
sl