It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by The Djin
reply to post by Spectral Norm
Now, what the author of the rather glib request that I have reproduced in this article neglects to tell us is what this corroborative evidence is supposed to look like, i.e., what would be accepted as corroborative evidence? I strongly suspect that the request was merely a rhetorical one. I suppose that the unspoken logic of the rhetoric runs something like this: I conclude at the outset that no such historical personage existed, therefore, no credible evidence of such a personage can exist. Hence, I am safe in requesting such evidence, since none can be produced.
How about a body (or remains) in a tomb, an inscription bearing the name jesus son of joseph but born of a virgin mary. Brother of James Judas Simon and judas plus sisters.
The heir to the throne of david crucified by the romans , the guy that walked on water raised dead people out of the grave etc etc.
That would be a pretty good start ,
Wait a minute, didn't a jesus son of joseph turn up at talpiot ? Oh, that's right rejected by Christians as the wrong one because their jesus disappeared into the sky, how convenient.
Whole libraries of antiquity were torched by the Christians. Yet unlike the works of his Jewish contemporaries, the histories of Josephus survived. They survived because the Christian censors had a use for them. They planted evidence on Josephus, turning the leading Jewish historian of his day into a witness for Jesus Christ !
Finding no references to Jesus anywhere in Josephus's genuine work, they interpolated a brief but all-embracing reference based purely on Christian belief.
Do we need to look any further to identify Eusebius himself as the forger?
Originally posted by jmdewey60.
What is the "Lord's Day"?
A Reminder to Christians
1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
1CO 14:1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.
This is what you have been called for and to. I know of no way that you can get out from under this.
A Warning to Dispensationalist Zionist Christians
You believe the Church dispensation to be a mere parenthesis in God's full plan. I warn you sincerely, that if you dedicate your lives and money to furthering a dispensation not your own, then you forfeit the rights and privileges of the dispensation to which you belong.
It is not the Jews who believe a new temple to be for the use of the anti-Christ, it is you. All your money, energy, and moral support is therefore dedicated to the anti-Christ. Why do you serve the anti-Christ and yet call yourselves followers of Jesus. You cannot serve two masters. Either follow Jesus, or work for anti-Christ. You are not doing both at the same time.
. . .some of the original letters had been changed with interpolations, created to posthumously enlist Ignatius as an unwitting witness in theological disputes. . .
Originally posted by Spectral Norm
Now, what the author of the rather glib request that I have reproduced in this article neglects to tell us is what this corroborative evidence is supposed to look like, i.e., what would be accepted as corroborative evidence? I strongly suspect that the request was merely a rhetorical one. I suppose that the unspoken logic of the rhetoric runs something like this: I conclude at the outset that no such historical personage existed, therefore, no credible evidence of such a personage can exist. Hence, I am safe in requesting such evidence, since none can be produced. Furthermore, if anyone claims to have such evidence, I will simply call into question the veracity of it.
But let us assume that what is meant is a contemporaneous written document, distinct from the New Testament or the Christian Apocrypha, which refers to Jesus. Well, such a document exists. In the 90's C.E., Josephus wrote The Antiquities of the Jews, and in it there are two references to Jesus. The first is a direct one in Book 18, and this has become known as the Testimonium Flavianum. The second is in Book 20 and deals with the murder of James, identified by Josephus as the brother of Jesus.
Josephus, who introduced himself in Greek as "Iosepos (Ιώσηπος), son of Matthias, an ethnic Jew, a priest from Jerusalem", fought the Romans in the First Jewish-Roman War of 66–73 as a Jewish military leader in Galilee. Prior to this however, he was sent in his early twenties for negotiations with Emperor Nero, for the release of several Jewish priests. He later returned to Jerusalem and was drafted as a commander of the Galilean forces. After the Jewish garrison of Yodfat fell under siege, the Romans invaded, killing thousands; the survivors committed suicide.
According to Josephus, however, in circumstances that are somewhat unclear, Josephus found himself trapped in a cave with forty of his companions. The Romans asked him to surrender once they discovered where he was, but his companions refused to allow this. He therefore suggested a method of collective suicide: they draw lots and killed each other, one by one, counting to every third person. The sole survivor of this process was Josephus (this method as a mathematical problem is referred to as the Josephus problem, or Roman Roulette ) Josephus and one of his soldiers then surrendered to the Roman forces invading Galilee in July 67 and became prisoners. The Roman forces were led by Flavius Vespasian and his son Titus, both subsequently Roman emperors. In 69, Josephus was released (cf. War IV.622–629) and according to Josephus's own account, he appears to have played a role as a negotiator with the defenders during the Siege of Jerusalem in 70.
To what can I compare this generation?They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:
" `We played the flute for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge,
and you did not mourn.'
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, `He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, `Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions."
I don’t know about you, but I find this frightening: that some men can be so unreflective, so immersed in their own ideological and economic bubble, that rational arguments simply bounce off of them. They are immune to argument, unable and unwilling to understand how militarism and imperialism are killing us and dragging us down into financial and moral bankruptcy. Sprung from the nexus of economics and foreign interventionism, they personify a growing sector of American society, one that derives both its income and its very identity from our ever-expanding Empire.
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant
On the first day of the week we came together to break bread.
On the first day of every week, each of you is to put aside and save whatever extra you earn