Get Your Permit: Silver Iodide Weather Modification is REAL

reply to post by firepilot
Firepilot, I'm just curious why it is you believe anything you read? I'm not saying that you should believe me, I am only offering food for thought, but you should take EVERYTHING you read, the SAME way. Just because something is 'written' doesn't mean it's true. Where does your knowledge of Silver Iodide come from?? Ofcourse it;s not like spraying the air with anthrax or something of that nature, but the fact remains, proven by the MSDS on the material... it is not something you want to take into your body!!!! Maybe small doses don't show any crazy effects, but I thought it was common sense that small exposures over a period of time, can lead to some bad things as well. Maybe it's not harmful, but that seems quite unlikely. I am admitting I could be wrong, where you claim to be right... See the difference? I approach conspiracies and all thoughts alike, with knowledge I have obtained, but I use my own sense and judgment to sort out what makes sense, and what is logical. Here's some food for thought; you want to know how you can tell something is most likely going on? The fact is that we DO have a population problem, but they aren't talking about it. Worl population is at 6.8 billion, and they project it to be at 9 billion by 2050. That's only 40 years, and an almost 50% increase in population. We need to do something about it, but killing people, eugenics, chemtrails, and other bs like that, is not right. People should be informed, and we should come up with a viable solution.

Originally posted by firepilot
And I gave you a link that had listed the approximate amount of Silver Iodide used yearly on cloud seeding projects, its in the weather modification association AgI toxicity link

erg. I tried to find your post... What page were we on? I'm certainly not looking to bury info or ignore it.

thanks,

Sri

Originally posted by Sri Oracle



Deny ignorance? Measured in grams?

ok... math class... firepilot says 150 grams of silver iodide per flare; he's the expert...

each flare: 150 grams... each craft: 20 flares = 3 kilos per flight / day / craft = 150 kilos per 35 cessna fleet per day... 365 days a year;

54,750 Kilos Annually

...if Weathermodification, inc. alone flies each of their planes just once a day.

54 Metric Tons.

We can measure that in grams if you'd like...

its 54 MILLION g.

Break out a calculator,

Deny ignorance.


Sri Oracle

www.weathermodification.org...

Wow, just wow. How you can talk about denying ignorance? You are totally makings things up, yet again. I have explained to you, over and over, how cloud seeding projects work.

But you have this image in your head, and you would rather just stick your head in the ground and say LA LA LA LA LA I cant hear you. You will insist that all of these planes, each fly every day, no matter what, all year long.

Are you actually going to tell us that every cloud seeding aircraft flies every day of the year, summer, spring, fall and winter, and it does not even matter what the weather is doing? Even if it is just a 3 month project, you think the planes fly every day, fire all their flares, regardless of when, where, whatever

You are the only one having trouble grasping that these are used in seasonal projects in specific weather conditions of growing storm cells for a summer time project, or incoming snow storms for a winter project.

The reality, at least that everyone else can grasp, is that these planes can go weeks without any flights even during a cloud seeding project. You must actually think some of these small water districts or watersheds have storms every day, and that when they take off, they fire off every single flare, regardless. And that somehow a 3-6 month project is actually 12 months...somewhere you have this disconnect.

But if you have evidence that either summer lasts all year long, or that these water districts have secret aircraft that secretly seed, of whatever. Share us what actual information you have, not silly misinformed ignorant speculation.

You insist these planes fly every day of the year, then give us evidence of it. Whats next? Are you going to tell us that firefighting aircraft fly every day of the year too, dumping dangerous chemicals all around? Those dump several tons at a time, right to the surface




[edit on 21-7-2010 by firepilot]

[edit on 21-7-2010 by firepilot]

Originally posted by HumanistInitiative
reply to post by firepilot

 

Firepilot, I'm just curious why it is you believe anything you read? I'm not saying that you should believe me, I am only offering food for thought, but you should take EVERYTHING you read, the SAME way. Just because something is 'written' doesn't mean it's true. Where does your knowledge of Silver Iodide come from?? Ofcourse it;s not like spraying the air with anthrax or something of that nature, but the fact remains, proven by the MSDS on the material... it is not something you want to take into your body!!!! Maybe small doses don't show any crazy effects, but I thought it was common sense that small exposures over a period of time, can lead to some bad things as well. Maybe it's not harmful, but that seems quite unlikely. I am admitting I could be wrong, where you claim to be right... See the difference? I approach conspiracies and all thoughts alike, with knowledge I have obtained, but I use my own sense and judgment to sort out what makes sense, and what is logical. Here's some food for thought; you want to know how you can tell something is most likely going on? The fact is that we DO have a population problem, but they aren't talking about it. Worl population is at 6.8 billion, and they project it to be at 9 billion by 2050. That's only 40 years, and an almost 50% increase in population. We need to do something about it, but killing people, eugenics, chemtrails, and other bs like that, is not right. People should be informed, and we should come up with a viable solution.

Then if you have actual evidence, not just speculation, but you can actually point out a specific statement I made that is incorrect, then do it. But making vague assertions does not make a point.

And yes, I have a background in chemistry, in addition to being a pilot. Do you have evidence the MSDS information is not corrrect? If you have specific information, then by all means share it. I mean if you think that my information is not correct that i have shared, especially in regards to aviation, meteorology, methods of cloud seeding, chemistry, etc...then point out exactly where I am incorrect.




[edit on 21-7-2010 by firepilot]

Originally posted by firepilot
You insist these planes fly every day of the year, then give us evidence of it

When I was reading through the pages of weathermodification, inc it seems to me like in the winter they seeded snow storms, and in the summer they seeded rain storms.

weathermodification.com...

By increasing snowpack and resultant spring runoff, subsequent water supplies for hydropower are increased.
[]
Efforts to increase rainfall during the warm seasons are typically aimed at convective clouds.
[]
Warm season glaciogenic seeding is typically applied to treat supercooled cumulus congestus clouds,
[]
When clouds do not grow tall and cold enough to produce precipitation through the Bergeron processLoading, it may be possible to stimulate precipitation growth by seeding these warm clouds with hygroscopic seeding.

and then they state:

We work with many clients whether it is on a long-term basis or a short-term contract. Client requests are almost never the same

and

Aircraft Sales and Leasing

* We can provide air and ground staff for a turnkey program
* Unparalleled support from our maintenance and flight department assures smooth operation for your project
* Support is available 24-hours a day, 7-days a week, around the globe

...which to me appears that they have multiple clients in multiple parts of the world: When they're not working on a project in El Paso, they're flying their planes in another storm in Pheonix. There may not always be a suitable storm in my neighborhood, but there is always a suitable storm occurring somewhere, within the vast expanse of "permitted" airspace. Further, it appears to me that the 35 planes they keep in their fleet are just a drop in the bucket to the number of planes they provide 24/7 support for globally.

If their operations were not running every day, or at least not MOST days... why would they keep a fleet of 35 aircraft? Do you need 35 aircraft to seed 1 storm?

Sri Oracle

[edit on 21-7-2010 by Sri Oracle]

Originally posted by Point of No Return
reply to post by jdub297

 

I don't know if this was aimed at me, but I never claimed it was a secret.
I said that this info doesn't reach the masses.

Neither does basic astronomy - witness the plethora of "Nibiru" posts talking about stars and planets as if they were the same, or as if there were any scientific basis for their claims; and,

Neither does basic English - witness the horrible grammar, spelling and virtually unintelligible "word salads" that show up on ATS, even in this thread; and,

Neither does basic science or chemistry - where uninformed readers latch onto a word or phrase and extrapolate it into something it is not, as also in this thread.

Ignorance does not justify fear-mongering speculation about "what if," "it could, "I believe," and "no one knows" as if they are facts.

If you are capable of publishing a post or thread, you should be capable of basic research, objective interpretation, logic and presentation.

When someone fails to do this, they only diminish their argument and credibility.

As for "MSM" versus "local media," THAT is a false dichotomy.

Local media outlets, especially affiliates of such international giants as Gannett, Hearst, NBC, Time-Warner, CBS, the Tribune Co., AP, Reuters, Pulliam, Fox, et al, are every bit as "mainstream" as their parent organizations or larger-market brethren.

The fact that may people are ignorant, willfully or otherwise, does not translate into "not reaching the masses."

Sometimes, the news is knocking but nobody's home!

No one here has yet to provide an account of physical harm from cloud seeding.

You are still having major comprehension issues with how a weather mod project works, and I really have no idea how to explain it any further. Everyone else seems to realize it..

During a seasonal project, the planes do not go hit other projects, they are DEDICATED to that project, and sit on standby at that location, that is what the client pays for. Even if that means sitting for days and days, and weeks on end which happens, for 3-6 months

And the client pays for the flying time too on that project, during the period is goes on, which could be as little as 3 months, or as long as six. And that list of projects on there, is not how many are going on currently, but a history of work they have done.

After the project is over with, yes they can go to a different one, if there is. However, usually there is not. Some of the planes work in the summer, but a much few number work winter projects. More often than not, they go back to the company base for maintainance and stored until the next project.

None of these aircraft on these project spend all year on a standby, much less even fly all year. And just because they may have a total of 35 aircraft, does not mean that 35 aircraft are currently hired out either. It takes a lot of work and expense to modify the aircraft, so its cheaper to keep them around in storage in case they get hired again in the future, rather than sell it.

And if you go there in the winter time, you will see a parking ramp full of summertime seeding aircraft being stored for the summer, only about 4 get used in the winter projects.

There is NO El Paso project, Weather Mod does not even have any projects in TX for that matter. The only summertime projects they have currently in the US are North Dakota in the summer, and then some snowpack projects that start in Nov or Dec

But if you think those North Dakota planes based out of small farm towns actually go seed other states and countries, then share your information. And if you think these planes and pilots fly each and every day, regardless of the weather, then why is it they maybe average 15-30 hours a month of flight time on projects? And the amounts of seeding material used are are often public info, especially when in regards to municiple/state entities such as water districts




[edit on 21-7-2010 by firepilot]

OK, I'm going to give a bit of a lecture. Commercial airliners do not leave chemtrails.

The offices and permits you refer to are for cloud seeding to alleviate drought. Yes it is weather modifacation. On a limited scale. Large planes do not do this. And it is not done on a large scale.

The two most common chemicals for cloud seeding are silver iodide and dry ice. Cloud seeding chemicals may be dispersed by aircraft (as in the second figure) or by dispersion devices located on the ground (generators, as in first figure, or canisters fired from anti-aircraft guns or rockets). For release by aircraft, silver iodide flares are ignited and dispersed as an aircraft flies through the inflow of a cloud. When released by devices on the ground, the fine particles are carried downwind and upwards by air currents after release. This is done at mid lattitudes.

The silver iodide released during cloud seeding is hundreds of times less than many factories give off into the air. And there has never been a test where the land and vegetation in cloud seeding areas has produced anything other than a background reading for the silver iodide.

NOW ON TO REAL WEATHER MODIFACATION

This is public knowledge. Project Stormfury. In the 60s the US attempted to modify hurricanes in the Atlantic Basin by seeding. The project was stopped because of the fear that they could change the course of a hurricane. The reults of the project were not clear, they could only change the storms structure on a very temporary basis.

The US Bureau of Reclamation and NOAA have both studied weather modifacation. Project skywater and the Weather Damage modifacation program.

24 countries have weather modifacation projects designed to increase rainfall. China has the largest and most advanced system, firing silver iodide rockets. Russia seeded clouds over Belarus to decrease radioactive particles in the air that were heading to Moscow after Cheronobyl.

Cloud seeding to aleviate drought is nothing new. It's 60 years old. But commercial jets aren't spreading chemtrails of this substance. If it doesn't go directly into the proper type of cloud it's useless.

Show some evidence that a commercial airline is being loaded with Silver iodide and spraying it. SHow some other evidence that the weather modifacation is anything other than seeding clouds in areas with low rainfall.

reply to post by Sri Oracle

Unless stubbornly enchanted in delusion, I like to think that everybody agrees:

(Corporately charted) AIR PLANES OFTEN drop (potentially) MASSIVE quantities of SILVER IODIDE (and quite possibly), TRIMETHYL ALUMINUM, BARIUM, and PROPANE, (sporadically but repeatedly) into the SKY over large areas of North America, through state sponsored WEATHER MODIFICATION programs, for the financial benefit of the shareholders of other corporate institutions, and most people don't know.

does "potentially" make you feel better?

are you ok with this viral meme now?

NO! As worded, it is completely FALSE.

"Corporately chartered" ignores private ownership and state or municipal or other political subdivision's ownership/lease of the aircraft. What difference does it make, anyway?

No airplane, or group of airplanes, drops "massive quantities" of silver iodide "into the sky." You misrepresent CLOUD seeding as SKY seeding. Any given run is for a limited amount directly related to the size of the pre-existing cloud formations
to be "seeded."

In practice, you will not see cloud seeding, because it takes place above and around a specific storm front. (Planes don't just cruise the skies dropping streams of AgI trolling for results.)

"Quite possibly [any other chemicals]" is a fantasy. There is no evidence that any of your listed chemicals are used in cloud seeding.

"Sporadically but repeatedly" is not correct; a single storm-cloud seeding operation is a one-time event. It is never repeated, as the storm front moves on or dissipates. Every seeding is a unique operation targeted to specific circumstances and needs.

"Into the SKY over large areas of North America" is completely false, and you should know better. Seeding operations do not cover "large areas" of the country - they are specifically targeted for a LOCAL effect on then-existing cloud/storm conditions. There is no such thing as SKY seeding.

Through state sponsored WEATHER MODIFICATION programs, for the financial benefit of the shareholders of other corporate institutions

is pure misinformation.

Which "other corporate institutions" are you talking about?

What about the farmers, water users, irrigation districts and water conservation districts? The Edwards Underground Aquifer Authority is responsible for the water rights and use of homeowners, municipalities, and downstream-rights holders. They sponsor a majority of the So. Texas seeding.

You could post facts, but you resort to cheap distortions.

and most people don't know.

I can't speak for most people; YOU certainly don't know, or you deliberately distort. Which is it?


[edit on 21-7-2010 by jdub297]

reply to post by jdub297

I said that this info doesn't reach the masses.

This was a response to a member that posted a few articles about cloud seeding.

I still stand by it. Sofar you have taken every one of my comments out of context in your last three posts and you give it a further meaning where there isn't one.

Seems like you want to lure me into this derailing discussion.

Go...play with...yourself!

Originally posted by Point of No Return
I am wondering about potential health and environmental hazards, as well as distubing the balance of weather patterns.

Then you can research it. There is a vast amount of information. Try your local or State Agricultural Extension Service.

There is not much info out there, that is independant, and noone can look into the future for long term effects.

How "long term" are your thinking? People have been "modifying weather" for more than 200 years! It used to be called "rain making," and relied upon dry ice before AgI.

There are plenty of independent, government, and university studies about the effects and effectiveness of cloud seeding. The fact that you do not know this, proves that you cannot possibly know what "most people" know, either.

Is this a negative thing that I am wondering about potential hazards?

Only to the extent that it represents a willful refusal to learn what information is readily available.

"Wondering about" anything does not improve it if people overlook or remain ignorant of available facts and information while they are "wondering."

Do you have a problem with that? Why?

To the extent that a thread that should've disappeared in 1 or 2 pages persists and persists in promoting irrational argument, it is a problem. See above.

Most "normal" people that don't visit ATS, regular Joe, doesn't know about WMod., or doesn't know the specifics.

How would YOU know, it hasn't helped you?!

Ask 10 random people and see what they know about it.

Since you posted this, I've asked the 1st 10 people I've come across or spoken with this afternoon.

Want to guess the results?

100% who knew what cloud seeding was (7) were over 40 years old, and had never heard of "Nibiru" or "chemtrails." Only 4 of the 7 (60%) were college educated. 100% did not live with their parents and were employed or retired.

100% of those who did not know about cloud seeding (3) were still attending or hadn't finished school. Of those, 100% still lived with mom and/or dad, and WERE CERTAIN of either Nibiru or Chemtrails.

Looks like we have reached the "PointofNoReturn" much sooner than I'd feared.

Deny ignorance

jw

[edit on 21-7-2010 by jdub297]

More hidden information.

Here are the operations reports for this year from West Texas Weather Modification.
As of July 12 there were 20 flights for the season, which began in March.
www.wtwma.com...

In 2009, The South Texas Weather Modification group flew a total of 77 seeding flights. The total amount of AgI dispersed; 42.2kg. That's 93 pounds, a little more than a bag of dry cement.

In terms of flights and seeding days, 2009 was a bit above normal compared to the 12 year average for STWMA, despite below normal yearly rainfall totals. Seeding operations took place on 45 days. AISM’s radar analysis showed that seeding effects this year were positive once again. The success of the project comes about through the hard work of many people, and it is here where gratitude must be expressed.

southtexasweathermodification.com...

So that 93 pounds was more than average. STWMA covers an area of 6.6 million acres. A terrifying concentration of .006 gram per acre. Even if they were spreading arsenic it wouldn't be a problem. Twelve year average, less than .077 gram. Still not very scary for a substance which is not deemed toxic and is insoluble in water.

"Massive quantities"?
I think not.


[edit on 7/21/2010 by Phage]

Originally posted by Sri Oracle

Originally posted by Mayson
I was pretty sure that was old news too.

It's supposed to make it rain but, from what I remember, it's not terribly effective.

Right... everyone comes out of high school with full knowledge of this subject.

www.license.state.tx.us...

Currently, cloud-seeding projects designed to increase rainfall from convective cloud towers are conducted in nearly 31 million acres of Texas (or almost one-fifth of the state’s land area)

I wish I could get a budget to carry out 31 million acres of terribly ineffective ideas.

Not.

Sri Oracle

[edit on 19-7-2010 by Sri Oracle]

The funny thing is, I think that I might have learned about cloud seeding in high school.

It's certainly within the realm of possibility. I think they first started experimenting with it in the 50's.

Originally posted by Sri Oracle

Originally posted by firepilot
You insist these planes fly every day of the year, then give us evidence of it

... it seems to me like in the winter they seeded snow storms, and in the summer they seeded rain storms.

"It seems to me" is not evidence. Nor is it proof that they seed EVERY snow storm, or EVERY rain storm.

The company/service info you cite also proves that only specific CLOUD types are seeded - they don't seed "the sky;" and,

that client requests are unique rather than "repeated" or "massive."
weathermodification.com...

" ... which to me appears that ...." is not evidence either.

they have multiple clients in multiple parts of the world: When they're not working on a project in El Paso, they're flying their planes in another storm in Pheonix.

You have nothing to back this up. Do you really contend that all of their planes are used for cloud seeding all day, every day? If so, you are either sadly mistaken, or intentionally misleading.

There may not always be a suitable storm in my neighborhood, but there is always a suitable storm occurring somewhere, within the vast expanse of "permitted" airspace.

The mere existence of a "suitable storm" does not equate to or result in a cloud seeding operation. Do you contend that they voluntarily search out and seed every storm that pops up anywhere? Just because it might rain doesn't mean that someone wants to pay them to seed it!

(This is getting ridiculous)

"It appears to me that ... " is not evidence.

the 35 planes they keep in their fleet are just a drop in the bucket to the number of planes they provide 24/7 support for globally.

Really? How many DO they have? Why don't you ask them? And, what if they have the means of "supporting" 100,000 aircraft? Do you contend that since they have the resources available, that they are all used all the time?

Even if they only have 35, they do not fly all of them all of the time for cloud seeding. Why don't you ask them?

"If their operations were not running every day ... " is not evidence.

Are you contending that a school's fleet of 35 buses and mechanics capable of servicing 100 MEANS that they run all the time and that they actually run 100?

" ... why would they keep a fleet of 35 aircraft?" is not evidence. Why don't you ask? Perhaps they'd like to be able to accept work from different clients with different needs! Perhaps the aircraft are of different size and range!

" Do you need 35 aircraft to seed 1 storm?" is not evidence.

You DO need 35 if some are of different capabilities from others and multiple clients have differing needs.
Does Hertz need 35 different styles of vehicles to serve 1 driver? No, but they need a variety so he will choose theirs!

This really is sad.

deny ignorance

jw

reply to post by jdub297

How "long term" are your thinking? People have been "modifying weather" for more than 200 years! It used to be called "rain making," and relied upon dry ice before AgI. There are plenty of independent, government, and university studies about the effects and effectiveness of cloud seeding. The fact that you do not know this, proves that you cannot possibly know what "most people" know, either.

Have they been spraying Silver Iodide out of planes in widespread programs for 200 years?

Please show me the independant studies of the effects of silver iodide sprayed out of airplanes over a longer period of time, on human health and the studies of the effects of weather modification in general, on the natural balance, I never claimed to be an expert.

The rest of your post was irrelevant, but at least this time parts of it were actually wothy of a reply.

[edit on 21-7-2010 by Point of No Return]

Originally posted by Point of No Return
reply to post by jdub297

 

How "long term" are your thinking? People have been "modifying weather" for more than 200 years! It used to be called "rain making," and relied upon dry ice before AgI. There are plenty of independent, government, and university studies about the effects and effectiveness of cloud seeding. The fact that you do not know this, proves that you cannot possibly know what "most people" know, either.

Have they been spraying Silver Iodide out of planes in widespread programs for 200 years?

Please show me the independant studies of the effects of silver iodide sprayed out of airplanes over a longer period of time, on human health and the studies of the effects of weather modification in general, on the natural balance, I never claimed to be an expert.

The rest of your post was irrelevant, but at least this time parts of it were actually wothy of a reply.

[edit on 21-7-2010 by Point of No Return]

There have been studies of the accumulation of silver in the biosphere. You might want to start here:

www3.interscience.wiley.com...

It mostly covers the relatively high concentrations found in mining tailings.

reply to post by Point of No Return

I will not educate you.

If you're this far into the thread, you have dozens of news sources, private providers, and public authorities, cited and linked, to tap for information.

The entire premise of this thread is that cloud seeding is harmful. YOU need to come forward with something more than "I was wondering," and pure speculation and junk science (if what I've seen can even be called 'science'.) ( And no offense to legitimate "junk," even IT has some value.)

I have not asserted that cloud seeding is safe, or has been around 200 years. "Weather modification" certainly has. Even given the 50+ years of AgI use, no one has produced ANY evidence of physical injury from cloud seeding.

You cannot do it, but persist in presenting unfounded fears as evidence of fact.

Nothing in your posts is based on anything more than speculation.

deny ignorance

jw

reply to post by Point of No Return


reply to post by jdub297

(I am really not responding directly to "PONR" here, just using his post and selected quote snippet as example of what I have to say...and referencing it to one by jdub...who has the patience of a saint, here...)

As usual, this thread has fallen victim to another shenanigans ploy by someone...I've seen this tactic more than once. I am calling it "argument for argument's sake".

Some may refer to it as "trolling"...but that's not my call to make.

This is prime example:

Originally posted by Point Of No Return
Have they been spraying Silver Iodide out of planes in widespread programs for 200 years?

I hope that is evident to everyone else, too.

Mocking derision first, then topic derailing...all whilst pushing boundaries of good taste, and feigned "ignorance".

As you can see here, same post, last sentence:

The rest of your post was irrelevant, but at least this time parts of it were actually wothy of a reply.

The prosecution rests......






[edit on 21 July 2010 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by Phage

A little more math. The Amistad reservoir, the largest in South Texas, covers an area of 64,900 acres. Based on that average of .077 gram/acre after twelve years (which is a high average), that's about 11 pounds of AgI (non-toxic). Spread out across the bottom of the lake.

"Massive quantities"?
I think not.

[edit on 7/21/2010 by Phage]

reply to post by jdub297

The entire premise of this thread is that cloud seeding is harmful. YOU need to come forward with something more than "I was wondering," and pure speculation and junk science (if what I've seen can even be called 'science'.) ( And no offense to legitimate "junk," even IT has some value.)

You are delusional. Why do I have to provide evidence, I'm not trying to prove anything, I said I was wondering what the effects on health are and the effects of Wmod on natural balance?

Nothing in your posts is based on anything more than speculation.

Ehm, I said I was wondering, you just said that I said I was wondering, is this supposed to be a revelation.

I never claimed it as fact, I said POSSIBLE hazards the whole time.

You keep pulling my comments out of context, and misrepresenting me.