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Get Your Permit: Silver Iodide Weather Modification is REAL

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posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 11:01 PM
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Originally posted by steven barnes
from what ive understood in the last day or so, silver iodide is used because of its close resemblence to the structures of water crystals but since its insoluable in water then after the crystals melt into water this would i assume drop the silver also.

"Zhang Qiang, head of the office, said the agency induced snow on Nov. 1 by seeding clouds with 186 doses of silver iodide, according to a separate Xinhua report. The seeding brought an additional 16 million tons of snow, according to the report"



I am impressed actually. You are the first person of a more opposing view, in any one of these kinds of threads, who seems to have actually done some reading and understood something.

You are correct, AgI nuclei can act in a way as a fake ice crystal, and help start the process of supercooled water turning to ice, which is a natural part of a thunderstorm cycle.

A gram of AgI has an astronomically high number of number nuclei too, and it really does not take much. While some people here state that planes are dumping huge amounts, thats not reality.

For example, a flare on the wing of a plane contains 150g of AgI, but it burns for 4 minutes. And in that 4 minutes, the plane may travel 2-3 miles per minute, so 8-12 miles, and it is dispersed by the updrafts in the thunderstorm.




posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 11:06 PM
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Originally posted by Sri Oracle

Originally posted by Phage
Hey, did your town have a fireworks display on the Fourth of July? Mine did. I really like the silver, green, and red colors. What are your favorites?


I boycott fireworks displays.

Sri Oracle


Well the stuff still travels around and is done over cities, and to a much much greater amount of usage that silver iodide could ever hope to be used. So by your own reasoning, your family is apparently exposed to lots of fireworks display pollution. How are you going to keep standard air pollution away?

And I gave you a link that had listed the approximate amount of Silver Iodide used yearly on cloud seeding projects, its in the weather modification association AgI toxicity link



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 11:06 PM
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reply to post by XPLodER
 

Cloud seeding does not cause the formation of clouds.

Silver iodide is quite benign and it is used in small quantities.

It is not particulates from airplanes which cause droplets to form. It is the water vapor in the exhaust at high altitudes where the air is very cold. No, exhaust is not good for cloud seeding.

Yes, cloud seeding changes natural weather. That is why it is called weather modification. Some people say it is bad. Some people (usually those who live in dry areas) say it is good.




[edit on 7/20/2010 by Phage]



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 11:41 PM
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Originally posted by steven barnes
the above document states this about silver iodide, which isn't pleasing to observe

"Inhalation: May cause respiratory tract irritation. May cause effects similar to those described for ingestion. The toxicological properties of this substance have not been fully investigated. "


If you were able to interpret an MSDS, then you would know that the concentrations used in most common applications are far below any levels approaching "toxicity."

Silver iodide is an effective antiseptic, and has been so used for more than 100 years. Many "silver salts" have been used in medicine; babies were routinely administered silver nitrate INTO THEIR EYES to prevent infections.

Silver iodide has been used effectively in cloud seeding for at least 50 years worldwide.

When people are ignorant of science, or of facts, they are apt to latch onto slivers of warnings, reports and studies and completely misinterpret them.

You can obtain an MSDS for many household chemicals you are using and can find "toxicity" warnings for all of them - that is the purpose of the MSDS!

This thread is much ado about nothing.

Deny ignorance.

jw



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 12:17 AM
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reply to post by Sri Oracle
 

DO, or do not, AIR PLANES drop large quantities of SILVER IODIDE, TRIMETHYL ALUMINUM, BARIUM, and PROPANE, into the SKY of North America, under the guise of state sponsored WEATHER MODIFICATION???


No, they do not.

Small quantities of silver iodide, measured in grams, are contained in flares used for cloud seeding of cloud towers to induce ice crystal formation and rain.

The other compounds are NOT used in weather modification programs.


I SAY YES! It happens on a very large scale, very often, for whatever reason, it is very, very, very absolutely real.


You cannot support those contentions with fact.

How do you define "large scale," "very often," and "whatever reason?" You've taken factual statements and deliberately or mistakenly misrepresented them.

Cloud seeding is undertaken in very limited conditions, over limited areas and for specific purposes. Your own "sources" say this, but you chose to ignore that. Why?

Where do you find any support for your assertion that trimethylaluminum and barium are used in cloud seeding?

You cannot.


Are there still any NAY's in the audience?


Quite a few, who've grown up with cloud seeding and who know how to read objectively and with understanding.

Please offer support for the contentions that I've addressed.

(You will not because you cannot.)

Deny ignorance!

jw



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 04:44 AM
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ok if people are saying its happening in china, america and i see it happening in england i'm quite certain thats enough to estimate this is occuring on a large scale, we know most of the people involved are privatelty organised so the cross referencing of infomation IS NOT THERE. So its all good saying its under the purported toxicity but this is based on AGI alone, not mixed with other chemicals that can have synergising effects and also since there is no higher amassing of the worldly infomation it is hard to know if the toxicity levels are too high or low.

We've established that other processes and manufactuers produce large ammounts of chemicals that we should also be concerned about, But the point is here, if we have to start referring to clouds as organic or inorganic, synthetic or natural, that idea is quite world shaking, considering most of the food around us is processed or has the presence of some chemicals that aren't so great for us, it should be normal for food to be "poison" free, clean, fresh but alas we have to name things organic rather than label all the processed food as PROCESSED, SYNTHASISED, UN-NATURAL because there is just so much more bad food than good, i just find these kinda things weird when you have to label that somethings good which should be abundant because of that and you'd imagine the poor food would be less abundant.

Anyway modifying the weather clearly has some terrible outcomes, this is undeniable and anytime there is diasters, how often or easy is it to realise it is caused by man for scientists and especially for the average person and with all things going on in the world, unnatural farming, massive quanities of pollution, millions of tonnes of waste, wasteful society, wasteful mind its very difficult to cross all of the infomation of 6 billion active humans considering we're still doing the same thing the romans did thousands of years ago.

in the beginning there was 100% resources and no money
soon maybe there will be 100% money and no resources,

maybe we didnt mind money coming in because we had so many resources and now we have lots of money, we want lots of resources.

rarity = value, its funny how money gets more valuable, a peice of paper, when we deplete more and more of things we use to actually live.



[edit on 21-7-2010 by steven barnes]



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 09:33 AM
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Originally posted by steven barnes
ok if people are saying its happening in china, america and i see it happening in england i'm quite certain thats enough to estimate this is occuring on a large scale,

What do you mean by "large scale?" The fact that cloud seeding is being done in many countries makes it "wide spread," not "large scale." There are people who like to dress up as animals to act out fantasies. They hold conventions in the US, Britain and Japan. Is the "Furry" movement "large scale," or simply "wide spread?


we know most of the people involved are privatelty organised so the cross referencing of infomation IS NOT THERE.

Yes it is much easier to say that the information is "not there" than it is to go out and do some research. If you truly feel that this issue is important, you can contact all the cloud seeding firms ans (politely) ask them to provide the sort of information you feel the public needs to know.


So its all good saying its under the purported toxicity but this is based on AGI alone, not mixed with other chemicals that can have synergising effects and also since there is no higher amassing of the worldly infomation it is hard to know if the toxicity levels are too high or low.


Again, if you have a genuine concern possible environmental hazards caused by AgI, you can obtain a grant and do studies. The EPA and WHO would be all over that. Speaking of the WHO, they might have a "worldly amassing of information" for you. Have you contacted them?


We've established that other processes and manufactuers produce large ammounts of chemicals that we should also be concerned about,

I'm not sure where in this thread this was established, but it is a known fact that the photo-chemical industry and mining are the principle sources of elevated levels of silver in the environment. Coal powered plants contribute as well. If you are concerned with AgI levels, these would be the natural places to start reforming.

But the point is here, if we have to start referring to clouds as organic or inorganic, synthetic or natural, that idea is quite world shaking,

"Organic" means that its chemistry is based on carbon. There are no "organic clouds" in the Earth's atmosphere. (There are on moons in the outer solar system.) Clouds are formed by moisture in the atmosphere. It is a natural process.

considering most of the food around us is processed or has the presence of some chemicals that aren't so great for us, it should be normal for food to be "poison" free, clean, fresh but alas we have to name things organic rather than label all the processed food as PROCESSED, SYNTHASISED, UN-NATURAL because there is just so much more bad food than good, i just find these kinda things weird when you have to label that somethings good which should be abundant because of that and you'd imagine the poor food would be less abundant.

This doesn't quite seem to relate to the issue of cloud seeding, but you realize that producing food that meets the government standard to be called "organic" is expensive an inefficient. "Organic" farmers want their products to be labelled as such so they can justify charging more. Ultimately, all food is carbon molecules.


Anyway modifying the weather clearly has some terrible outcomes,

Can you provide any examples?

this is undeniable and anytime there is diasters, how often or easy is it to realise it is caused by man

Yes, some disasters are caused by man. Industrial accidents, that sort of thing. Other disasters are entirely natural: earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunamis. These can be disastrous because humans persist in building and living in potentially dangerous locations.


for scientists and especially for the average person and with all things going on in the world, unnatural farming, massive quanities of pollution, millions of tonnes of waste, wasteful society, wasteful mind its very difficult to cross all of the infomation of 6 billion active humans considering we're still doing the same thing the romans did thousands of years ago.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here.


in the beginning there was 100% resources and no money
soon maybe there will be 100% money and no resources,

maybe we didnt mind money coming in because we had so many resources and now we have lots of money, we want lots of resources.

rarity = value, its funny how money gets more valuable, a peice of paper, when we deplete more and more of things we use to actually live.

Again, I'm not entirely sure what this has to do with cloud seeding, but if you are claiming that the current agricultural practices are unsustainable, and that there may be resource wars in the future, I tend to agree with you.



[edit on 21-7-2010 by steven barnes]



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 09:43 AM
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Originally posted by Phage
Spoil sport. I'm sure your efforts are noticed.
What are you, unAmerican? I bet you don't like apple pie either.


I usually boycott the apple pie too.

These days the apples are rarely local and organic.
These days the pie rarely represents the need to make use of the annual harvest from the family tree.
These days the crust is genetically modified, chemically-altered white flour and partially hydrogenated oil.
The common "American" apple pie ships from an internationally owned factory on the other side of the country and was kept on the shelves for months using Sodium Benzoate to preserve it for this very occasion.


"Hill and Valley" "Entenmanns", "Schwanns", and "Bimbo Bakeries" have long since played out the "American Tradition" of "apple pie" for me; as yet another act of corporate warfare rather than a symbol of America, just like the abundant cheap Chinese firecrackers which poison our skies every "Independence Day", just as great an affront to true Americanism as the silver iodide rain that falls on corporate command, just like the psyop indoctrination that every mom must have a plethora of chemical agents at her disposal under the kitchen sink.

I find most of the apple pie I run into these days rather unAmerican, perhaps that is because I can remember why people "came to America" and why apple pie WAS American.

The all to common, all-American Thanksgiving "Bimbo Bakeries" tradition is played out in my opinion and has tainted the tradition.

but how far are we now from the subject of this thread now that I have defended myself from your ad hominem "spoil sport / unAmerican" jab? Were you not here when I was defending your friend-in-cause firepilot from the same abuse on page 11?

---------------------
STICK to the subject of this thread please:

Does it happen? DO entities regularly spray our skies with chemicals to alter the weather?

If you can't stick to that...

GO AWAY.

And if you'd like to make your own thread about whether or not Chinese firecrackers are worse than silver iodide weather modification.

GO AHEAD.

I encourage you.


BECAUSE I THINK WE HAVE PROVED AT THIS POINT:

1) yes... our skies are sprayed with silver iodide

2) yes... there is evidence other chemicals are used

3) yes... this has occurred in hundreds of towns across the US

4) yes... NOBODY really knows how much silver iodide is a "massive quantity" because the subject needs more study, but studies to date show the substance may be related to retarded growth, which raises flags.

5) yes... weather mod is regularly done and has been for decades with (at least) fleets of Cessna-like aircraft under permit from governmental agencies.

6) yes... most people don't understand that sometimes the air planes over their heads are dropping chemicals to make it rain.

Unless stubbornly enchanted in delusion, I like to think that everybody agrees:

(Corporately charted) AIR PLANES OFTEN drop (potentially) MASSIVE quantities of SILVER IODIDE (and quite possibly), TRIMETHYL ALUMINUM, BARIUM, and PROPANE, (sporadically but repeatedly) into the SKY over large areas of North America, through state sponsored WEATHER MODIFICATION programs, for the financial benefit of the shareholders of other corporate institutions, and most people don't know.

does "potentially" make you feel better?

are you ok with this viral meme now?

I'm comfortable in my belief that I have still made a significant point while back peddling through "potentially" "quite possibly" and "sporadically but repeatedly"

Sri Oracle

[edit on 21-7-2010 by Sri Oracle]



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 10:34 AM
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Originally posted by jdub297
No, they do not.

Small quantities of silver iodide, measured in grams, are contained in flares used for cloud seeding of cloud towers to induce ice crystal formation and rain.
[]
Please offer support for the contentions that I've addressed.

(You will not because you cannot.)

Deny ignorance!


Deny ignorance? Measured in grams?

ok... math class... firepilot says 150 grams of silver iodide per flare; he's the expert...

each flare: 150 grams... each craft: 20 flares = 3 kilos per flight / day / craft = 150 kilos per 35 cessna fleet per day... 365 days a year;

54,750 Kilos Annually

...if Weathermodification, inc. alone flies each of their planes just once a day.

54 Metric Tons.

We can measure that in grams if you'd like...

its 54 MILLION g.

Break out a calculator,

Deny ignorance.


Sri Oracle



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 10:37 AM
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Originally posted by firepilot
How are you going to keep standard air pollution away?


With my pen... I'm working on it right now.

Sri Oracle



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 10:59 AM
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reply to post by Sri Oracle
 


Ummm...so?


each flare: 150 grams... each craft: 20 flares = 3 kilos per flight / day / craft = 150 kilos per 35 cessna fleet per day... 365 days a year;

54,750 Kilos Annually

...if Weathermodification, inc. alone flies each of their planes just once a day.

54 Metric Tons.


So??

Of course, not to quibble --- but "35 X 5 = 105", not 150....


ANYWAY, doesn't matter...because you ASSUME EACH airplane, every day. That is ludicrous, and therefore this "chicken little" fear-mongering is too.

But, still...let's look at ~50 Metric Tons, shall we? Distributed over HOW MANY square kilometers, please. What is the concentration?

MINIMAL.

If you still have your calculator handy.....

Oh, and suggest that while "~50 metric Tons" sounds like a 'LOT' at first blush, consider this reality check: I crunch numbers to see that "50 Tons" is 100,000 pounds (sorry, converted to English units...and used the English/American "ton" of 2,000 lb/each).

Put that into a volume perspective, just for the mind's eye --- a smallish Boeing 737 (the -500 version, for example) has a basic EMPTY (no fuel, payload) operating weight of ~72,000 pounds. Look at a B-737, and you see a LOT of empty space...well, no you don't see it exactly...but you can infer it, because the wings and fuselage are mostly hollow. Crush ALL that metal and plastic and cloth up into a compact ball, and...well, don't know how large it would then be.

But, you can imagine, I hope....

Here, I found a marble statue said to weigh ~100,000 pounds...for the mind's eye to judge and contemplate, of course...to get perspective...

www.gettyimages.com...



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 11:05 AM
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reply to post by Sri Oracle
 

If the state of texas is PERMITTING silver iodide cloud seeding projects, then in my eyes the GOVERNMENT is complicit.


So what?

What HARM comes from cloud seeding?

Instead of "what if" or "it could," and other worthless speculation, show what NEGATIVE consequences of CLOUD SEEDING (not the chemical silver iodide) have been documented.

You cannot. You are afraid of chemicals just because they are chemicals. Do you realize that the exhausts of residential and business vents are putting chemicals into your environment? Animals add to the mix. Automobiles, restaurants and everything else we do to produce or consume releases chemicals into the environment.

Show the negative consequences of cloud seeding before you needlessly hype-up a non-existent "threat" or "secret" contamination.

Your implicit premises are entirely baseless:

1. Cloud seeding is a secret? No!

2. Cloud seeding is harmful? No!

3. Cloud seeding is the same as "chemtrails?" No!

Given that these three premises are indisputably FALSE, what GOOD reason did you have to start an otherwise useless thread?

Deny ignorance?

jw



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 11:16 AM
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Originally posted by firepilot

Originally posted by Point of No Return
I never see stories about this going on a regular basis in for instance Texas.


Now really????


This is just one of the many sources that shows this is neither a secret nor harmful:

Weather modification is nothing new. Scientists have been seeding clouds to make more rain for decades, by ground and by air. The first program started 1971 as a way to suppress large hail in West Texas. Today, there are nine cloud seeding projects in Texas. The South Texas Weather Modification Association (STWMA) is based out of Pleasanton, just south of San Antonio. The group has taken off to seed growing thunderstorms on 44 days this year.
...
Individual water conservation districts pay groups like the STWMA $0.04 an acre to seed over their counties. The STWMA covers 6.6 million acres. Not every district contracts services year round. The Edwards Aquifer Authority set aside $500,000 in 1998 for cloud seeding from May through September.
...
As for the silver iodide’s environmental impact, Bomar points to his research.

“In a lot of cases we couldn’t find any silver,” said Bomar. “In a few cases we did, but the amount of silver that turned up in the rain water was 1/250th of the acceptable level established by the U.S. Public Health Service.”

www.kxan.com...

Some people will refuse to go to the links and prefer to spread fear and ignorance.

See the other cited sources, as well.



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 11:20 AM
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reply to post by jdub297
 


I don't know if this was aimed at me, but I never claimed it was a secret.

I said that this info doesn't reach the masses.



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 11:27 AM
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reply to post by Point of No Return
 

The whole point that started this side discussion was that most people don't know about weater mod., or may have heard of it but don't know the specifics and don't care.

I still stand by that statement.


The mere fact that a few select ATS members are not aware of some things does not mean "most people."

You keep referring to the "risks" and "harm," without citing ONE report of harm from cloud seeding.

All you and your similarly unaware brethren can do is list chemicals and their effects. That is just plain deception. ALL chemicals have harmful effects in certain situations. Water is explosive when combined with some. Oxygen is deadly in pure form.

Before all of the OP's supporters and believers go further, they need to find ONE instance of chemical harm from cloud seeding.



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 11:43 AM
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reply to post by Sri Oracle
 


I have taken some photos over Amarillo. We have maybe 10-15 flights in and out here during a busy travel day. Yet, within one hour, we have a spider's web of chem-trails appear many mornings. It cannot be normal air traffic! Something is being sprayed. I think I have posed many photos of this spraying before. But, really, where ever you live. Look up throughout the day. Eventually you'll see it, too!



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 11:45 AM
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reply to post by jdub297
 





You keep referring to the "risks" and "harm," without citing ONE report of harm from cloud seeding.


I am wondering about potential health and environmental hazards, as well as distubing the balance of weather patterns.

There is not much info out there, that is independant, and noone can look into the future for long term effects.

Is this a negative thing that I am wondering about potential hazards?

Do you have a problem with that? Why?

I never claimed as fact that WMod. is hazardous, I'm just wondering.

That's two posts in a row where you misrepresent me.

Any particular reason?




The mere fact that a few select ATS members are not aware of some things does not mean "most people."


I didn't base my comment on "the mere fact that a few select ATS members are not aware of some things".

Most "normal" people that don't visit ATS, regular Joe, doesn't know about WMod., or doesn't know the specifics.

Ask 10 random people and see what they know about it.

[edit on 21-7-2010 by Point of No Return]



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 11:45 AM
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Originally posted by Sri Oracle

Originally posted by jdub297
No, they do not.
Small quantities of silver iodide, measured in grams, are contained in flares used for cloud seeding of cloud towers to induce ice crystal formation and rain.[]
Please offer support for the contentions that I've addressed.
(You will not because you cannot.)Deny ignorance!

Deny ignorance? Measured in grams?
ok... math class... firepilot says 150 grams of silver iodide per flare; he's the expert...
each flare: 150 grams... each craft: 20 flares = 3 kilos per flight / day / craft = 150 kilos per 35 cessna fleet per day... 365 days a year


Those are unfounded assumptions of quantity and persistence; you can't just make up things as you go along.

Imagined threats scare the unaware and frighten those who trust them. Not one of you fearmongers has proven one single incident of chemical harm from silver iodide cloud seeding.

Stick to my post and address my points. Or give up and admit you don't know but are just really, really afraid.

Even assuming those numbers were real, dpread over the entire landmasses of the earth, it is undetectable!

Deny ignorance

jw



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 11:52 AM
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reply to post by michael
 

This thread isn't about contrails. It's about cloud seeding.

It isn't the planes that land and takeoff at AMA (Amarillo Airport) that create contrails, it is the ones fly over on their way somewhere else. Those taking off and landing are too low to create contrails.

But I think you're mistaken about the amount of traffic AMA sees. Looks like about 50 arrivals during daylight hours.
www.ifly.com...



[edit on 7/21/2010 by Phage]



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 11:58 AM
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reply to post by michael
 


michael, as Phage pointed out, you see contrails.

Here's something else to help you understand the way air traffic is routed over your area (KAMA):



That is a portion of the high-altitude navigation charts used by pilots...my screen captures aren't showing the full views, though.

You can further educate yourself at www.skyvector.com...

It will open up with a view of the VFR Chart for the Los Angeles area. Type 'KAMA' in the upper left box, to center it on Amarillo.

You will then see the VFR chart for your area. There are tabs above...the one labeled "Enroute H-6" gives you the 'High' ('H') chart depictions. You can mouse around, and explore it to learn a great deal.

Enjoy....



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