World tired of us: Israeli minister

I cannot be doing with any generalised hatred of any people. Most of us are the victims of our leaders' choices not our own. The British government, due to persecution of jews in Russia (the progenerators of the communist movement were largely jewish - including Marx, whose father was jewish and Trotsky while the Bolsheviks had large numbers of jews in their rank and file)) did offer them part of Kenya to call a homeland in 1903. The Massai could have been the palestinians. British Uganda Programme

The anti-semite argument has always been absolutely ridiculous given that palestinians are also a semitic people - as are all arabs. I understand that Israeli's born and raised in that state are sick and tired of conflict. They want their government to focus on more 'normal' governmental roles i.e. improving infrastructure, economy, education etc. That those living in the occupied territories are NOT Israeli born jews but largely American born jews who appear to be playing in the wild east.

Jews, Muslims and Christians have always inhabited Israel/Palestine....and until the 1948 creation of the Israel state did so in peace. The present government of Israel has a vested interest in continuing hostility and victimisation of the palestinian people. Without these issues most of them would be out of a job.

I'm sick and tired of them, let them go back where they came from, dirt or clay what ever it was.
And if God is tire of they there really done, well Islam.

reply to post by Izarith


Seeing as you're wrong yea it is kind of dumb. Seeing as you claim not to be Christian, but copy paste a large amount off of what Christians said, yea you are copy pasting and pretty much indifferent to those you insulted.

Wouldn't that make you a hypocrite?

And seeing as I was a universalist for most of my life and still saw miracles, yea, you can have it half wrong and still feel God and get answers from the holy spirit. Dig a little deeper and you'll see where he pulls you.

And yea, you'll probably be forgiven for that, but what's the cost when God's all like "yea you're in, but you got a lot of it wrong, come with me for a sec dewd.

Also, freedom is not liberation from rule. Without rule, there is no freedom. For without rule, anarchy and lawlessness ensures.

Don't you remember? That's why Adam and Eve fell. They chose to liberate themselves from rule.

No rules is a folly of a game.

Going back to the topic at hand, Jerusalem is indifferent from the flesh. So do tell. If Jerusalem, like the flesh, is bound by the same death that flesh is, how will there always be people fighting for it? Just as the flesh passes into memory, then to myth, and is forgotten, so too will the city in time. It will be forgotten and no more. And no men will fight for that which no longer exists.

[edit on 4-7-2010 by Gorman91]

not taking anyone's side but there's nothing wrong with copy and pasting
this is the internet, you are supposed to do that
especially in a forum that always encourages links and sources to back arguments up

Just saying
thanks

Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
reply to post by Gorman91

 

If Jesus was lord? How was he killed and crucified? Jesus was not lord, never was never will be. He was simply a messenger. It is blasphemous to say that your lord can be killed. Ridiculous. Absolutely Ridiculous.

Jesus/Yeshua is the Lord! He allowed Himself to be crucified on the
cross.He paid our sin debt to God with His precious Holy blood.We had a debt we could not pay and Jesus/Yeshua paid it.He now sits at the right
hand of God and will be returning again.

I don't know how this became a theological discussion. I don't ascribe to any faith so that's not working for me. I'm specifically looking at this from a political perspective. The Grand Old Man's words ring true. The world is tired of this crap.

I'm reminded of a part of The Stand. Nick tell Mother Abigail that he doesn't believe in god. She laughs and says, "It don't matter Nick, he believes in you." So I guess we'll see if he comes to Israel's aid. Nothing short of divine intervention will save Israel AND the Mid East if the status quo remains.

reply to post by intrepid


God already did that.




He ain't doing it again cause they've become barbarians just as bad as their enemy. In the Bible, that's usually the time he abandons them.

reply to post by Gorman91

Seeing as you're wrong yea it is kind of dumb. Seeing as you claim not to be Christian, but copy paste a large amount off of what Christians said, yea you are copy pasting and pretty much indifferent to those you insulted.

The only Christians I have quoted are the blind Mammon worshiping Antichrists that have turned the teachings of Jesus into fruitless non-nourishing dead letters on dead tree bark.

Because I hate to brake it to you but Christ Jesus was not a Christian he was a Jew who went against the Hypocrisy of the Temple who were starving the Jewish peoples soul.

Jesus was a dissident, and rebel and an outlaw and was condemned to death for the lies of the Temple priests who conspired to make him out to be a King and a Lord.

Jesus said himself that he was not to create peace but rather to be the sword that would bring destruction to the Rule of the Temple.

He did not die on the cross for our sins to be cleansed, Jesus died on the cross because people put him there and killed him and Jesus told those weeping for him not to cry for him but rather to cry for themselves for a day would come that women would bless those who are barren and can not give berth to children for they would only seek to bury them alive rather than to live in such horrific times.

Wouldn't that make you a hypocrite?

This is not funny man, how can you even say this with a straight face...

You can say what you wish about Jesus or God, but to spit in the face of the Holy Spirit in this was is not funny.

Be Warned that those who have the Holy Spirit have armor to combat the Hypocrisy of this world.

And seeing as I was a universalist for most of my life and still saw miracles, yea, you can have it half wrong and still feel God and get answers from the holy spirit. Dig a little deeper and you'll see where he pulls you.

True but your not even trying to listen to me as I am listening to you. It's one thing to listen and not agree and another to not listen and hold tightly to a word like Lord for no other reason but to remain blind.

And yea, you'll probably be forgiven for that, but what's the cost when God's all like "yea you're in, but you got a lot of it wrong, come with me for a sec dewd.

I have no interest in Heaven or Hell, those places are but another place to dwell in. My interest is to "Know thy Self" and to remember who I am.

Also, freedom is not liberation from rule. Without rule, there is no freedom. For without rule, anarchy and lawlessness ensures.

Freedom is in the mind, No lord can give it or take freedom because freedom is in the mind. There are no Rules, There is no spoon, there is only what you give yourself to.

And Trust me the last thing Jesus wants is a persons soul...The guy has his own.

Don't you remember? That's why Adam and Eve fell. They chose to liberate themselves from rule.

Adam and eve did not fall when Sophia offered them the insight to eat the Apple from the tree of knowledge, what Adam and Eve did on that day was accept the Holy Spirit....

Going back to the topic at hand, Jerusalem is indifferent from the flesh. So do tell. If Jerusalem, like the flesh, is bound by the same death that flesh is, how will there always be people fighting for it?

The same way we have lived many lives lost in the Material. There is no difference from the flesh and the dirt, dust and rock that makes up Jerusalem.

Just as the flesh passes into memory, then to myth, and is forgotten, so too will the city in time. It will be forgotten and no more. And no men will fight for that which no longer exists.

Just like bloodlines cross time so will the fighting. This world is a prison, it's not meant to be a nice happy place.

[edit on 4-7-2010 by Izarith]

reply to post by mamabeth

Jesus/Yeshua is the Lord! He allowed Himself to be crucified on the
cross.He paid our sin debt to God with His precious Holy blood.We had a debt we could not pay and Jesus/Yeshua paid it.He now sits at the right
hand of God and will be returning again.

The only dept Jesus paid was the price for going up against the Temple and the hypocrites that dwelled within. You on the other hand will have to pay your own way to get out of this Hell hole.

Jesus was not a Aztec or vyan in central America, believe me he was not pleased about being tied to a crossed and stabbed in the side and left there to hang until dead. The only reason he knew what was going to happen is because it was common knowledge to every Jew that if you went against the Temples hypocrites you would die.

He did not die to pay for your sins he died in vain due to the thirst for blood of those who worship God and Mammon.

God is a made up word, it's Dog spelt backward....that's what you are worshiping...

If you wish to know the Father you will first need to KNOW THY SELF!

Originally posted by intrepid
I don't know how this became a theological discussion. I don't ascribe to any faith so that's not working for me. I'm specifically looking at this from a political perspective. The Grand Old Man's words ring true. The world is tired of this crap.

I'm reminded of a part of The Stand. Nick tell Mother Abigail that he doesn't believe in god. She laughs and says, "It don't matter Nick, he believes in you." So I guess we'll see if he comes to Israel's aid. Nothing short of divine intervention will save Israel AND the Mid East if the status quo remains.

For me it is a bit hard to view this thread from a strictly political standpoint. Being as Israel is receiving funding from the USA and other parts of the world and are receiving such money because of a theological interest. At the expense of the lives of Israeli, USA and Arab people I might add.

But here is a video I think you might enjoy....



It's art and very wise words...hopefully it's within the T&C...I'll leave it up to you to find out.

There is no such thing as a bad Student.... only bad Teachers

There's no such thing as a bad Race....... only bad Leaders.

Originally posted by nenothtu
reply to post by FraternitasSaturni

 

A legitimate government is a legitimate government. You haven't countered the legitimacy of the State of Israel.

So, if you get you panties all wadded up by the French example (I just picked one at random) because of the age of it (BTW, I beleive the current government there traces back to the late 18th century, rather than the 9th century monarchies) then let's just scrap that comparison, and compare it to Zimbabwe, That was formed in 1980, from other people's land. Reckon we ought to oust them, and give it back to the Rhodesians? To be honest, they did a better job of managing it, but a legitimate government is a legitimate government, and Mugabe can run it into the ground all he pleases. It's his country, legitimately.

You mention the Crusades. Yeah, I heard about them. Wasn't it muslim land at the time? How and when did the muslims acquire it? C'mon now, you're a bright lad. I know you know the answer to that...

All those words, and you never got around to challenging the legitimacy of the State of Israel.

I didnt.

My point was not to question the legitimacy of the state of israel my friend. You missed the point. But I'll explain... since for Mr Gurion (and apparently to you also) the legitimacy of a state can be questioned by the way how the native people of that country are developing it, and IF its the case that well, the natives of a country arent doing a very good job means you can rightfully take their country since you can do a better job... well then since its a matter of "if you can do better take it", prolly the germans have the right to invade Israel. Or Luxemburg with the aid of the rest of europe... or even Europe as a whole can invade israel... or any country that thinks it can do better for all that matters.

My point was to question the mentality and reasons behind such take over and confront you and all Israel defenders with some pretty good quotes from some of your "heroes". My point was for any person with a brain to actually draw a conclusion that Israel exists and was founded on some very questionable thoughts, ideas and actions. Israel is no better than Nazi Germany for instance.

Its a rogue state, a coward state that rises upon the lives of other human beings even if those human beings are their allies. If you're not a jew, they'll be glad you die for them and it even comes in handy since its not a "jewish" life that was taken. They're as bad as the nazis. They're a fascist and a terrorist state. I'm sorry.

Again... legitimacy was contested by many people but I didnt question it actually... Albert Einstein did, not me.

Oh and believe it or not, even Einstein was against the "State of Israel"... in 1946 Einstein was asked to comment on the jewish settlements demanding a jewish state:

"The State idea is not according to my heart. I cannot understand why it is needed. It is connected with narrow-minded and economic obstacles. I believe it is bad. I have always been against it."

April, 17 1938 he was already stating in a speech at the commodore hotel in NYC:

"I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state. Apart from practical consideration, my awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain -- especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight strongly, even without a Jewish state."

In 1948 he even wrote a letter to the NY Times along with other important jews at the time being against the "soon to be" prime minister Menachem Begin calling him a fascist and condoning the attacks on arab villages and population (The Deir Yassin incident for instance) and the way israel was climbing its way up.

Its founding father believed in occupation by force and elimination of the arabs of the region, so did all israel leaders that followed... same s.hit, different day, people change but ideas and primordial concepts remain the same to this day. Those are the stones on which Israel is built on.

Now about the crusades... I dont see your point on that question. It was muslim yes and before that, if you know your history the "key to the city of jerusalem" was GIVEN by Sophronius, patriarch of jerusalem to Caliph Umar in 638. Now... note the word, GIVEN. All after that was taken... by both sides, but that first time, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, it was given.

Now... if you were trying to say that muslims went there and took it from the jews... well, he didnt, you are wrong and 500 years late because Umar was the first in 500 years to actually ALLOW jews to practice their religion openly in Jerusalem. How intolerant of those muslims crazy fanatic murderers, psychopaths, thieves and land usurpers huh?

That was before the first crusade btw... just in case you mess up your dates again. Just a quick note before you get all excited about the crusades. Umar died in 640 something. The first crusade was in 1096. I'm just telling you this so you dont think the muslims got there and christians and jews started to get all massacred and that was what triggered the first crusade. There were a lot of changes in 400 years... which seems a pretty logical and straight foward concept.

P.s. Please do your homework before actually trying to insinuate something regarding history or this will be nothing but a conversation where you say stuff and I have to correct you. One time was enough... the others that follow tend to get boring and I lose my interest.

reply to post by Gorman91

True bible? Do explain. Every gospel says he is lord. He says he is lord. Lots of times.

On what authority do you have to cut and paste the bible?

You either accept it as truth or you don't.

If you feel the need to invent your own religion, at least don't copy paste another one.

I love this topic, do you know why? Because most Christians are so ignorant in regards.

Let me give a crack at this one:

1. "Every bible claims he is Lord, he says he is Lord, lots of time"

LittleSecret1.

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4)"

This is from the Bible, as you can see, it says, GOD is one, the LORD is one. Jesus says our GOD, meaning the GOD of Jesus and the Jews who he was speaking to.

Just to make sure you don't twist and turn I'll bring another verse:

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)"

As you can see, again, Jesus is saying the Lord our GOD, the Lord is one.

I think that is self explanatory.

One thing you have to understand about the Bible is that it has man's word in there also, it has been edited many times, speculations have been added, and people who never met Jesus also added their own accounts of Jesus inside the Bible.

The are important facts you have to take in to consideration.

Even Christian scholars would admit that fact.

There is no doubt that the truth about Jesus does exist in the Bible, but it is mixed with lies, but at the same time no one can deny, one can easily subtract truth from falsehood, you just have to try.

reply to post by FraternitasSaturni


My apologies for missing your point. If the state of Israel is legitimate, then there is no debate. States do what states do, and Israel is no different. They are in control of their state, not us. There's not a problem there, then.

I'm not entirely sure where you get the notion that I think land should be taken by those who can do a better job of it. I specifically stated that Zimbabwe was taken FROM people who were doing a better job with it, but it is it's own state now, and has the right to run it's territory as it sees fit. The fact that Rhodesians did a better job is only tangential, and has no bearing on Zimbabwe as it is now. I understood it to be YOUR idea that territory should be returned to prior claimants, and that's where Zimbabwe came in, since you seemed to take umbrage at the comparison with the "Ancient" land of France with Israel. Zimbabwe is much more recent, hence the switch in examples.

The quotes you gave were not from my "heroes", and to be honest I could care less what they thought. Likewise, I care not what Einstein had to say about it.

Your comment on Sophorius was disingenuous. Yes, he "gave the key" of Jerusalem to Umar, and if you're aware of that tidbit, you're probably also aware of the surrounding circumstances.

Where you get the notion that I'm confused between the Muslim conquest of Palestine and the Crusades is beyond me. If you feel the need to invent my thoughts, merely so that you can then "correct" things I've not said, then one of us is completely unnecessary in this conversation. You can just go ahead and speak for both of us.

Make sure you turn your head from left to right, so that folks know which one of us is speaking.

reply to post by nenothtu

My apologies for missing your point. If the state of Israel is legitimate, then there is no debate. States do what states do, and Israel is no different. They are in control of their state, not us. There's not a problem there, then.

Hypocrisy is the problem, they expect everyone else to abide by International laws, and expect themselves to get the VETO middle finger all the time.

reply to post by LittleSecret


Don't have to twist a thing.

Peter: "you must worship Christ as Lord of your life."3

That's the simplest way to say it.

The son and the father are one. The holy spirit is one. They are all the same. It's nothing new. Egypt, Greece, India, and so many other places had the same view of a single God of many forms. Indeed, in many cases, polytheistic religions became monotheistic. A Hindu I know claims there is only one God with many faces.

So yea. I don't have to twist it. It's all right there.


Also consider this. Never was the bible knowns by one man alone. It was always in the hands of many people with different opinions.

So how can the Bible be corrupted if these many people with different opinions never had a majority to agree to change it? How could it have been changed when their opponents would surely call them out on it?

Indeed that has always been God's plan. Many judges to rule. Not one king. Even when Israel asked for a king, God only sent one to show them what happens with a king. Bad things.

So yea. No twisting needed.

Peter: "you must worship Christ as Lord of your life."3

Simple as that.



reply to post by Izarith



Actually no, I am not saying this with a straight facer. I am laughing because you are a hypocrite. You are inventing your own religion based on half truths form many places.

Now sure I'll pray for your forgiveness. And I have faith I will see you in heaven. And there I will joke about how wrong you were, forgive you, and go on enjoying eternity.

Israel is not a theocracy. It is however an apartheid state. BBC Radio 4 recently did a piece about immigrant workers to Israel - they are not allowed to have children in order to 'preserve the jewish character of the state'. People being people some of these immigrant workers have had children - Israel's solution? - deport the lot. So we have 8 year olds who have only ever known Israel as their home deported.

BBC Website

I live in Scotland - were we even to consider conducting our affairs in this way the international community would be down on us like a tonne of bricks - anyway our immigrant population is good for us, bringing new ideas, new foods, and new perspectives to what would otherwise be a rather bland society.

reply to post by Gorman91


Let's talk about what Jesus said, and here is what he said:

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4)"

Why did Jesus say, that everyone's Lord is one.

He calls the Lord his Lord also, is he his own Lord is well?

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)"

Once again, there is one Lord, and he doesn't say it is him.

As I said previously, even the scholars of Christianity, and the Bible admit the Bible has been edited.

Even the Language has been edited.

Much research is needed on your part.

reply to post by LittleSecret


Sure translations differ. the NIV itself is not the same as the original King James or Greek version.

What you are missing is the whole picture, which is not lost in translation and rings true in the oldest editions.

I can do the same thing you are doing.

Matthew 10:
(34) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Does that mean slay the none believer and to hell with all, let God judge?


You see. You cannot simple quote one line and proclaim it true. Accept it all, or none. If you want to invent your own religion, do not copy off another.

[edit on 5-7-2010 by Gorman91]

And yea, God is Jesus and he is his own lord. Just as the president is his own president and the mayor is his own mayor. Not too hard to understand.



[edit on 5-7-2010 by Gorman91]

reply to post by Gorman91


IT is not just the Translation, it is not just the side notes which has been added, it is also the account of people who never met Jesus in their life time.

The whole of Bible has conflicting accounts, why do you suppose that is?

I believe Jesus brought the message of GOD, but when you look at the Bible you see conflicting reports, why do you suppose that is?

Did GOD intent that also, the bigger picture as you claim?

As I said previously, much research needed from your part.