When is the time when enough is enough? A look at Armed Revolution in Modern USA

Originally posted by nenothtu
Don't tell me it CAN'T be done.

It CAN be done. ...*snip*... The Universe doesn't care what you believe to be possible, or what you want.

someone just got added to my friends list.

One last thing. I see a lot of "the corporations this" and "the corporations that". "Corporations have taken over my government, and are ruling us all!"


Now you want to whine because it got taken over by corporations, and your friendly little Frankenstein is now in operation under the remote control of your "oppressors"? Well! Who begged for it to have that much power in the first place? What could the corporations do with it if you hadn't grown it to the point where it can squash YOUR liberty like a bug? YOU are the jackasses that just couldn't leave the other jackasses alone in peace. You just HAD to control them, and now you have the temerity to whine on the internet because the monster YOU built has been turned against you?
....
Here's a hanky.

someone is still on my friends list.

- john paul som peter goede

not hiding behind and avatar.
my coordinates are under "location" on my avatar...

i think a little less afraid than most
thank you very much for that post

reply to post by MrWendal


I agree with much of what you have stated.

And I have, in the past, been on various sides of the argument; first believing that a revolution could work, and then that it couldn't.

I have now found a third option that I believe is most likely.

First, I'll explain why I don't think an armed revolution is possible, or likely to succeed.

The American public (IMO) are just as you said; they like to beat the war drums, but even getting them out on their feet for a peaceful protest on a moral issue isn't likely unless you offer them free doughnuts.
People are ignorant, lazy and when they do get angry enough that group thinks with a mob mentality. And that mentality is dumber than a bag of Turnips.
So, even if there was a sudden event or change of attitude which caused the public to be angry enough to put down the Chicken wings and turn of American Idol long enough to have a valid opinion, their actions will be met and destroyed by just a few heavily protected riot police.

Communications are controlled like never before. Yes, there may well be new opportunities to connect and share information, but that information is monitored 24/7, and it can now be closed off within minutes.
We've seen how the PTB like to infiltrate peaceful groups and in the UK they use communication technology to monitor these protest plans and even to prevent legal and reasonable protest by arresting prior to the event.
In the US, the internet would be shut down, TV is already controlled and filtered, communications are monitored and cell networks would be closed. Does anyone really think Iran, China and other unpalletable states are the only ones able to control what the public sees?

The might of the military is another factor. In the US you have a few Militias, but even a few million citizens in uprising against your military would result in slaughter.
And yes, your military will serve their leaders, not their people. This has been seen.
This will be secured through those Militias and groups being labelled as "Domestic Terrorists" by government.
And yes, people ARE that stupid!
If there was enough support globally you might have a few other nations supporting the effort, but the might of the US military would come down hard on any domestic uprising, regardless of where those military assets are currently based. They would be brought home to deal with the problem faced by government.
Their technology and hardware cannot be matched by any home-grown insurgency/resistance movement, even if it was supported by outside forces supplying hardware.

Voting, as you say, is pointless. It has been this way in most countries for decades. They are ALL members of the upper classes and will remain so. It's a club, and they are born into it.
Their interests are and always have been to line their own pockets and secure their own power. They couldn't give a rats ass about furthering their country or serving their people. They are in power to serve the interests of the wealthy corporations and those that head them. Nothing more.

Obama kind of sounded the death knell of modern democracy. You can see it in the UK. We are now forcing a review of our voting system and this is in no small part (IMO) due to Obama and his complete U-turn on every issue of importance for the American people. He gained so much popular support from young, dynamic and opinionated people, and then completely betrayed them at every important junction once he was in power.
He was the ultimate hope-destroyer for an entire generation, and his actions while in power have done nothing but create immense distrust in the entire democratic process.

So, if an armed revolution won't work, and voting for a new government is pointless, what is the solution?

The individual.

I have long believed that we have become too big. Our cities are over-crowded, our governance is too large and controlling, our global "network" is too interwoven.
We need to step backwards and shrink our worlds to create millions of smaller communities where governance is managed directly by the members of that community.
In the US it starts at the state level.
You can throw your elected local and regional officials out of office far easier than you can empty Congress.
You can encourage a local movement and force change on a local level far easier than you can encourage a mass protest in the capital.
You can choose to support Walmart or the local farmer.
You can choose to watch CNN or local news.
You can choose to send your kids to school controlled by the state or teach them from home.
You can choose to pay taxes to federal government or demand that taxes be paid locally to your state only.
There is a lot that every individual can do to become a true individual in their community, and that is the only movement that has a chance of actually getting somewhere (IMO).

The government only exists by permission of the people. If the people refuse to be governed by them, that government no longer exists. It only survives because people choose to live beneath it.

What would that government do if millions of people chose suddenly to stop paying taxes?
Are they going to send people to the doors of all of those citizens?
Are they going to fine them?
Are they going to try to imprison so many people?

Central/federal government is like a business. You, the people, pay for a service. That service is one of managing the nation. If the delivery of that service is not satisfactory, the customer no longer pays.
If all customers - or a significant number of them - chooses not to pay for that service any longer, the company has to close.

But you still need the service...
So you go to a competitor. In this case that competitor is the local government that you actually elected to run your state or region.
Those people know your region, they actually have to see their citizens, they are answerable directly to them. They can be thrown from their chair and replaced quite easily, no military opposition met.

Governance has become far too large to be effectively managed to meet the needs of the people adequately. There are far too few people making decisions for far too many citizens.

In order to improve our way of life and to destroy the corruption and greed that is now so prevalent in the upper levels, we have to make our worlds smaller and stop supporting the elites. This can only be done effectively through passive resistance and a popular movement away from central government.

That's my opinion.
And thanks for the great thread!

Originally posted by MrWendal
When is the time when enough is enough?

when is time?

when is enough enough?

semantics, maybe.

-ET

reply to post by detachedindividual


Some of your ideas are very sound, but they are all based on enough people participating. If 10000 people stop paying the taxes or dont go to Wallmart, it isnt even noticable. And how are you going to get maybe 50 million people to do the same without being a politician in the spot light?

Only a fraction of people understand what has happened to the government systems you know. Most of them think everything is fine, or dont care enough to actually do anything about it. And why not, if they have a comfortable existence with a family, a job and some tech stuff to keep them happy?

Its only when enough people have nothing to lose that they become a power to be reckoned with. People have an awful lot to lose in a country like USA where there is no safety net.


[edit on 3-7-2010 by Copernicus]

if i am a dog..
every law is a leash.

enough laws become enough leashes

neither the dog nor the dogwalker can move, the leashes weigh too much...

but i am the dog.

the dogwalker can drop the leashes, and walk away.

i am dog. i have leashes.

who makes the rules?
rulers make the rules.
who follows the rules?
followers follow the rules.

who follows the rules?
i am dog. i have leashes.
____________________________


Firefighters cannot forget, & we shall always remember

what happened within us on the eleventh of september:shk:

...

ATS

what proffesion would you choose to install a new nation?

what tempate would you consider for a uFopian creation?

who makes the rules?
rulers who rule fools
rulers who need tools
who makes the rules?

____________________________

revolution, or a "defrag" & anti-chaos evolution?

just som random thoughts,
ET

[edit on 3-7-2010 by Esoteric Teacher]

if i am a dog..
every law is a leash.

enough laws become enough leashes

neither the dog nor the dogwalker can move, the leashes weigh too much...

but i am the dog.

the dogwalker can drop the leashes, and walk away.

i am dog. i have leashes.

who makes the rules?
rulers make the rules.
who follows the rules?
followers follow the rules.

who follows the rules?
i am dog. i have leashes.
____________________________

I have hot read the whole thread. So shoot me. However I read enough to get an idea of the OP's original idea. I t seems to me that everyone... I MEAN EVERYONE... has completely left out the idea of education. I have been attacked about this very issue with the attacker not understanding how important this is: If you eliminate Civil Studies (which was a class you had to take in high school so you could understand the preamble to the Constitutipm you were required to remeber in jr. high school) then you should understand the level in whitch we are conversing.

reply to post by Copernicus


ki think you are an idealist... and there in lies the problem. We talk about ideas in the abstract on forums such as these. But there is no real unity. Not yet. The ideas... already here. Action?...in it's own time.

[edit on 3-7-2010 by missvicky]

[edit on 3-7-2010 by missvicky]

reply to post by Asktheanimals


Greeetings ..... Why should God bless America ??? We are the largest purveyor of pornography in the world....We are the largest consumer of elicit drugs in the world...We have deciimated the family(GODS CREATION)through divorce.... We murder the innocence under the auspicios of choice...We have removed God from our schools and in the public square...We have embraced homosexuality as an alternate lifestyle....we are extremely selfish on an idividual basis....These are just a few of our national shortcomings...I believe God will once again bless this nation when we change.....Let us not forget ...our elected officials are reflection of who we are...

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
reply to post by MrWendal

 

Violence like this without an actual plan of what comes after the violence may lead to even more tyranny or never ending instability.

My sig advocates a solution worth fighting for, but the idea is that we don't begin by fighting for it, but rather when the State fights our peaceful attempts then they have chose their poison, which is fine because in the end we know what to do after the violence.

Now THIS is what I was aiming for when I made this thread. Contrary to what some others clearly feel, I am not calling for violence. I am not baiting anyone. Now is the time for the thinkers and really think. Now is the time for us to really look at what is going on, understand it, and come up with something, anything to attempt to correct it. If that can not happen and we are to accept what some of us believe to be the inevitable, than now is the time to come up with a plan for the after. There have been many good post in this thread, but this one is really the type of thing I was looking for, so thank you.

Originally posted by missvicky
I have hot read the whole thread. So shoot me.

missvicky

However I read enough to get an idea of the OP's original idea. I t seems to me that everyone... I MEAN EVERYONE... has completely left out the idea of education.

:shk:

I have been attacked about this very issue with the attacker not understanding how important this is: If you eliminate Civil Studies (which was a class you had to take in high school so you could understand the preamble to the Constitutipm you were required to remeber in jr. high school) then you should understand the level in whitch we are conversing.

i'm clapping. can you here it?



[edit on 3-7-2010 by Esoteric Teacher]

As usual a good question was asked and the post is being taken over by the blame game trolls,hell we can't even stay on point long enough to possibly find a solution let alone agree on anything.

So that purty much answers your question except for one thing,as human beings we are predaters and as predaters we will do something(those of us that will die rather than give up freedom) even if it is wrong.

We all listen to clowns on the tube tell us how screwed we are day and day out but no soulutions,this is what they are suposed to do,keep us mad and fragmented and its working very well.

My solution even though futile is "Unity,Demonstration,Boycott"I can not take credit for this idea but I damn well agree with it.Untell enough people really get it that we are going to loose our free country to the likes of Obama and the ones that pull his strings then we will loose our way of life.

I don't know how to start a post but maybe you would get more info on the mind set of Americans if you ask "How bad can loosing your freedom be"?

[edit on 3-7-2010 by Battleline]

It is a fact of history that at no time has a government in power been changed without armed revolt.
Organized Armed revolt in the United States WILL NOT happen. The present day American masses are comfortable in their Slavery. Intuitionalized prisoners of the state. The desire of Cradle to Grave care is the mantra. The concept of self reliance is lost.
Even the States bow on bended knee to the Federal Corporate Governmement. A prime current example is the Gulf. The Gulf States are allowing their States to be completely destroyed by this disaster, soon they will have to evacuate, leaving behind proof of the need of revolt, but the masses will still do nothing. Another prime example is the unsecured southern boarder, the boarder States sit by and watch the Federal Corporate Government surrender millions of acres to armed bandits, and they still do nothing. Do you really think that Texas or Arizona would have done nothing about armed bandits in 1890, of couse not, our history is rich with story after story of Texas Rangers, Arizona Sheriffs, local Ranchers defending the boarder with the end of a rifle barrel. I have seen, as you have, Arizona and Texas Sheriffs on TV pleading for Federal assistance when all they need to do is shoot and feed the hogs.

reply to post by brokedown


Greetings.... We are a cowardly lot and the average person,if you asked them what they stood for they would probably come out with a recitation of some nonsense that sounds like a trailer from a Supermen episode...

If you stand for anything it should be for....The existence of God,The sanctity of life and the rule of law...Read our founding fathers letters,notes and declarations..( this material can be found in the federalist papers)this is what they stood for and fought for....What are we going to fight for???
Abortion,Illicet drugs,licence in place of liberty,more easy money,no constraints on perversity and so on...

during the course of refreshing my memory with the declaration of independence this 4th of July, i came up with this:

it looks like someone took the time to re-edit the declaration of independence, can you isolate the changes that were made?

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

Declaration Of Stupid

Stupid Link: www.belowtopsecret.com...
When in the Course of stupid events stupid becomes necessary for stupid people to dissolve the stupid political bands which have connected them with stupid and to assume among the powers of the stupid, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Natural Stupid and of Nature's Stupid God entitle them, a decent respect to the stupid opinions of stupid mankind requires that stupid should declare the causes which impel stupid to the separation of stupid.
We hold these stupid truths to be self-evident to stupid, that all stupid men are created equally stupid, that they are endowed by their Stupid Creator with certain stupid unalienable Stupid Rights, that among these are Stupid, Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Stupid’s Happiness. — That to secure these stupid rights, Stupid Governments are stupidly instituted among Stupid Men, deriving their stupid just powers from the consent of the governed stupid, — That whenever any Form of Stupid Government becomes stupidly destructive of these stupid ends, it is the Right of the Stupid People to alter stupid or to abolish stupid, and to institute new Stupid Government, laying its stupid foundation on such stupid principles and organizing its stupid powers in such stupid form, as to stupid shall seem most stupid to effect their Stupid Safety and Stupid Happiness. Stupid, indeed, will dictate that Stupid Governments long established should not be changed for stupid and stupid transient stupids; and accordingly all stupid experience hath shewn that stupid mankind are more disposed to stupid, while stupids are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the stupid forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of stupid abuses and stupid usurpations, pursuing invariably the same STUPID evinces a design to reduce stupid under absolute Stupid Despotism, it is their stupid right, it is their stupid duty, to throw off such Stupid Government, and to provide new Stupid Guards for their future stupid. — Stupid has been the patient sufferance of these Stupid Colonies; and stupid is now the necessity which constrains stupid to alter their Stupid Systems of Government. The history of the present Stupid of Great Stupid is a history of repeated stupid injuries and stupid usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Stupid over these Stupid States. To prove stupid, let Facts be submitted to a stupid world.
Stupid has refused stupid’s Assent to Stupid Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the stupid good.
Stupid has forbidden his Stupid Governors to pass Stupid Laws of immediate stupid and pressing stupid importance, unless stupid suspended stupids’ stupids their stupid operation till Stupid Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, stupid has utterly neglected to attend to stupid.
Stupid Source: www.belowtopsecret.com...
End stupid quote.

reply to post by Esoteric Teacher


Thanks for the lesson in stupidity....(Stupid is what stupid does..."Forest Gump").....To be an educator is a weighty responsibility...here is for hoping you are not one of the interlectual vandals that are responsible for todays wholesale ignorance.....

reply to post by theodorej


we are all responsible in our own rights for the ignorance, be it wholesale or not.

some of my recent posts are the comedian in me attempting to both invoke thought (anti-ignorance) while stressing the fact the OP author recently re-enforced in a way (scroll up).

before we go thinking revolution of government or rising up to re-claim the leashes....

what are we going to replace it with?

UTOPIAN based ideologies
or
UFOPIAN base ideologies
or...
Stay the course?

options? suggestions? cuz if there is going to be rioting in the streets, i wanna know which way we plan on steering this ship. right now as is ... who has how many hands on the steering wheel?

does the puppet masters already have a plan?

thoughts, things & stuff,
ET



[edit on 3-7-2010 by Esoteric Teacher]

IN RESPONSE TO ALL WHO CLAIM THAT THE POWER OF THE US MILITARY WILL WIPE OUT SUBURBAN INSURGENTS:

Yes, the US military has high tech tanks, lots of paid troops with M4s (most with minimal shooting skills other than spray and pray), drones of all kinds, heavily armed choppers with detection equipment. All this is true, I've seen it myself upclose and personal during Desert Storm I.

BUT, if our stuff is so all powerful, why are we getting our asses kicked (yes we are; we've basically given up the southern portion of AFstan to the Taliban); why do we essentially hide in the Iraqi GreenZone?; why are insurgents with AKs, Old bolt actions and a few kitchen made IEDs chopping our guys to pieces every chance they get. This is the reality; not what you hear from the corporate media. (The VA can't get enough clinical neuroscience medical people to take care of the MASSIVE number of head injuries coming in everyday!!! There's no where near enough PM&R docs to take care of all the amputees that need prostheses!!! We are getting chopped to pieces by the rag tags.
Why do you think the PTB won't allow the public to see all the caskets returning from the sandbox?????

High tech, well equipped and supposedly "superior" forces can and ARE being defeated by ragtag home boys with minimal firepower.
SAME THING COULD HAPPEN HERE!!!! Only we're much much better armed!!!!

reply to post by doctorwork

"BUT, if our stuff is so all powerful, why are we getting our asses kicked (yes we are; we've basically given up the southern portion of AFstan to the Taliban)..."

IMO - Rules of Engagement

You're partially correct as regards the Iraq theatre in particular; but, I suspect short of all out chaos (i.e. road warrior scenarios), the military operating in the US against US citizens would have some very strict ROEs. However, that being said, the ROEs in Afstan are far looser, at least for most if not all combat units, and we're not faring well at all against the Taliban. Again, we've lost the southern portion of the country pretty much altogether. I have not personally been in Afganistan but I have been in Iraq and Kuwait, and I know many other officers who have and are now in theatre, mostly in the medical field, as I was. They convey the story I'm conveying above.
High tech is NOT trumping determined, pissed off, homeboys fighting on and for their own turf. My point is that the "high tech" military would not hands down quash widely supported massive rebellion in the US; in fact most would eventually join in and support it.

I'm thinking that in my neighborhood, there are about 50 homes with families. 18 men in the neighborhood have been in the military and 9 that I know of are officers (four medical types). I'd wager that all but one or two homes have at least 3-4 assault rifles and many handguns. About 25% of the guys take their kids shooting at least once every several months. Most have lots of ammo and several of us can do trauma medicine. This is in the free Southeastern US, i.e DIXIE.

Now, it would take major oppression (worse than we have now) and/or shutoff of food, fuel, and water availability to rouse most of these people into any kind of rebellious action against the PTB (these are generally upper middle class people who most make over $150K/yr and are now fairly comfortable). But , bring the tax rate to near 70% (we're now at a net 51%), put a bullying insensitive foreign trooper on each intersection to do checkpoints for traffic and watch what happens.

Just food for thought. Let's all go back to the beer and TV,
Happy 4th.