What are your thoughts about Children who drown during Baptisms?

reply to post by faceoff85


You are right , there is also the stuped factor . Anyone teaching that kind of garbage has a problem.

interesting is the way the catholic church deals with this kind of circumstances:
a few years ago, the vaticans statement was, if a child dies before being baptized, it wont go to heaven, instead it will be put in limbo to hell, like a waiting room, not the actual hell.
2 years ago, i think it was, the vatican changed this rule, babies now directly go to heaven, baptized or not.

reply to post by DISRAELI


who's intention though??

the baby has no idea what is going on. can a parent decide such a thing for a child?
is any child "saved" because they are baptised?? or does it take some intention on their part???

reply to post by dawnstar

I quoted, and deliberately addressed, the example of the teenager who died during the event.
The teenager had his own intention.
Not being a Catholic, I do not think that our relationship with God hangs on whether a ceremony does or does not take place.
If I had agreed with the OP's other suggestion, that an accidental death in baptism was a "sign" of hostility from God, that would have been something for people to get indignant about.



[edit on 29-6-2010 by DISRAELI]

Originally posted by icepack
interesting is the way the catholic church deals with this kind of circumstances:
a few years ago, the vaticans statement was, if a child dies before being baptized, it wont go to heaven, instead it will be put in limbo to hell, like a waiting room, not the actual hell.
2 years ago, i think it was, the vatican changed this rule, babies now directly go to heaven, baptized or not.

When reports like these come in from the vatican we should analyse how they support their hypothesis with biblical scriptures.. in the end thats where they SHOULD get their info from... And I can tell you now... they wont do that.. they cant..

I have always said there are only 2 good things left in this world, dogs and babies.
Dogs just exhibit unconditional love I have noticed this with all dogs, they just look to please people and comfort them no matter how good or bad an individual may be to them.
*There are a few exceptions but I believe if we could dig into the dogs history we would find a good answer as to why some dogs just seem to flip out.*
Babies on the other hand will be corrupt will sin in all forms of the word. But at the point where they are babies they have yet to have an aggressive thought other than where is mommy. Babies in my opinion are pure kind of like fresh white snow before we urinate in it.

But where babies die in baptism, I agree the parents need to find a new church, there is probably a problem with the baptiser.

Why is everyone assuming this was a Catholic baptism?

Catholics usually baptize their children before age 1, under normal circumstances.

They never submerge anyone, regardless of age, a priest sprinkles water on the head of the person being baptized. No submerging. Never in a river, either.

Two of the baptisms in the OP were performed at the same "Temple".


God Bless~

reply to post by Esoteric Teacher


I am about to show my religious intolerance...
Babies are not supposed to be baptised!
Only foolish churches baptise babies.Babies have
not reached an awareness of their sinful nature.
You should only be baptised when you confess your
sinful nature and accept Jesus/Yeshua as your Saviour.

Never thought I would agree with Titan-Sxull about anything of this subject, BUt I do here.

That child is simply to young to be baptised in such a fashion. I might see a blessing with a sprinkle, but not submersion. the child can't even feed itself...how can it make a rational choice between right and wrong...or religious faith?

It is such perversions of faith that make all religions, not just Christianity look bad.

Originally posted by thegoodearth
Why is everyone assuming this was a Catholic baptism?

Catholics usually baptize their children before age 1, under normal circumstances.

They never submerge anyone, regardless of age, a priest sprinkles water on the head of the person being baptized. No submerging. Never in a river, either.

Two of the baptisms in the OP were performed at the same "Temple".


God Bless~

And even though catholics dont submerge babies they're still doing the wrong thing...

Mark 1:9-10 (American Standard Version)

9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in the Jordan.

10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens rent asunder, and the Spirit as a dove descending upon him

See how Jesus came UP from the water? cant really deduce that Jesus may have ben sprinkled with some drips of water...
also the word baptism is taken from the greek word "ba‧pti′zein"
the dictionary describes it as follows:

Baptism \Bap"tism\, n. [OE. baptim, baptem, OF. baptesme, batisme, F. bapt[^e]me, L. baptisma, fr. Gr. ba`ptisma, fr. bapti`zein to baptize, fr. ba`ptein to dip in water, akin to baqy`s deep, Skr. g[=a]h to dip, bathe, v. i.]

Even though sprinkling is used nowadays, in the old days it was NOT... its changed from biblical teachings to a more mundane thing...

With all the corrupt, pediphiles in the church these days, how does water blessed by one of these priests, "cleanse" or "save"?

What does a parent do when they find out a priest who has baptized their child is a pediphile? Does it cancel out the baptism, and the child has to be redone?

If someone turns out to be a serial killer and they have been baptized, are they "saved"?

I am not baptized, and I don't think I am going to have such a different afterlife as anyone else. If I am stuck in a so called purgatory, at least I will have lots of company.

I think charges should be brought against these priests when a child is killed when being baptized. It sounds more similar to waterboarding. Whatever happened to just sprinkling the water on the forehead?

reply to post by Max_TO


Well.. I can't think of any passage that says otherwise. Not many "except babies" clauses in the bible. As a matter of fact, you can easily look up instances where "God" killed babies himself (not saying the ones he himself killed were necessarily condemned); I wouldn't put it past a being that would kill babies arbitrarily to also set them aflame, whether it be spiritually or otherwise. Such a being would be sick and deranged, in my not so humble opinion.. Sorry for the rant!

Anyone who believes that rituals such as these decide the fate of anyone's soul has some serious mental issues, and the priests responsible for deaths such as these should be charged with their crimes under the full extent of the law.

God: Greeting, my child, I am here to judge thee! Oh, I'm sorry to inform that since you weren't touched by my super duper blessed water during your mortal years you're going straight to hell.

Sure sounds like an all powerful and loving god to me!

reply to post by DisappearCompletely


Uhmm... for one its not nice to openly attack the more "naïve" believers among us and secondly you're making the mistake that the teachings of man are automatically the teachings of god or the bible. You need to differentiate between the 2. The bible doesn't say that anyone not baptised will go to hell. It DOES say that anyone not baptised will not inherit gods coming kingdom.

But as for the dead (that would include most of us in a couple of years) we will indeed be in the same place but its not in hell or some other place where its hot... Except if you died in the dessert offcourse.. We'll all be underground feeding the worms when we die. Our soul will not continue to exist wihout our body's and we will not be aware of anything whatsoever. we'll just be... dead... Just like all the people around us who have died, we will be burned (hahaha the wordplay) or buried and we'll be remembered for a while after wich we'll be forgotten.. that pretty much sums it up...

Really, how often does it ever happen that anyone dies during a baptism. Surely if someone does, it is because they were held under the water. It must be a murder or the result of someone being so stupid they don't understand that someone needs to breathe after a few seconds.

I don't see how someone could just "drown".

Even a baby would be kicking and trying to get to the surface, unless their heart stopped at that exact moment or something.

Anyway, if someone "drowns" during a baptism, it is most probably murder. Unless they just somehow dropped dead at that exact moment.

And well, if it is murder, it isn't God's fault. Everyone has free will. The murderer just chooses for some reason to drown a baby.

I know the Catholic church or some churches believe in original sin. They believe that once you are born and take your first breath, at that moment you are a sinner and need salvation.

They believe you need to baptise the baby in case it dies in childbirth.

Well I think that is boloney.

A baby doesn't even have free will yet.

To have free will you need to be able to make a decision on your own.

A baby doesn't even have that ability yet. A baby has limited self awareness. The brain keeps the baby alive and the baby is more reacting to stimulus than really being aware.

So if a baby dies, I can't see it being anything other than a pure soul.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

Don’t worry, no arrests were reported.

Don't worry.

Murdering children is okay as long as it was for religious reasons.

[edit on 29-6-2010 by traditionaldrummer]

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I had to laugh at that one...

thnx

reply to post by Esoteric Teacher


Well the first two stories you linked to are the same story.

Stallings said that Sade was born three months prematurely at Children's Hospital and that she had suffered complications from the birth. He said the infant remained hospitalized three months after her birth and was, in effect, "a 1-month old girl" when she was baptized.

"We were unaware of Sade Victoria's medical problems associated with her premature birth," Stallings said. Officials with Children's Hospital would not release details of the child's medical history.

The baby was technically 4 months old however the baby was born premature and was really only a one month old baby. The parents withheld this info from the church, it was not their fault is was the parents.

Thes third link you left out

Initial reports indicated that a landing used to walk into the river gave way without warning.

The thing they were walking on collapsed, the priest did not dunk the teenage boy to death.

The last story you linked to was the same, the warf people were leaning on broke and 50 people went into the river and some of them drowned.
edit to add: The last story is from 1887 not 1985. didn't you notice the use of "colored people". Considering that we had slavery untill 1865 people in louisiana probably were not trying very hard to save them.

It is obvious that nobody read the sources

The op edited the op to cover up the fact that he did not read them himself.




[edit on 29-6-2010 by zaiger]

Not going to bother reading the thread. You asked for my thoughts?

"Senseless murder of children in the name of an intangible object of worship" pretty much sums it up. I bet any money that those parents then proceeded to have a Catholic/Christian wake/funeral/whatever. Why should they be angry that their baby died while being forced to pledge its devotion to god, only to have god drown the baby? Isn't that how it works? Don't people die because of god's will/plan? Oh, that's a selective thing? Accident this time. Ok.

Religion abhors logic and reason. What I "think" is that the children should not have been subjected to that potentially (and in some cases apparently) life-threatening situations.

Maybe they can just call water-boarding "baptism" and everyone will be happy...

So now you edit the OP so you can pretend you said something else?