What are your thoughts about Children who drown during Baptisms?

What is your input? Is a child who drowns during baptism saved?
Or is it a sign from God?
Or do you have another opinion about the subject matter?
Don’t worry, no arrests were reported.


i would like to justify my "Or is it a sign from God?" question in the OP.

i brought this up because of some previous discussions i have had on this isssue with fellow classmates.

When reviewing why no arrests were made, it seems on could interpret the reason as: It was an act of God or an Accident.

If there is a God they believe in, then logically i'm not 100% the explanation of it being an accident is totally acceptable.

Act of God or accident during Baptism?

not sure if i know all the laws concerning the boundries on these issues.
hell, i don't know the number of all the laws.

god maybe the damnedest thing i've ever seen.

[edit on 29-6-2010 by Esoteric Teacher]

????

Good God Man , what's wrong with these people ?

How are these people screwing this up so bad ???

You would have thought that natural selection would have taken these people out long before they ever got the chance to attempt to baptize a child , given just how incompetent and dumb they seem to be .

Are there any bible quotes that deal specifically with what happens to a child that drowns during a Baptism?
End Transmission,
ET

Hmm . you wonder if thats why Jesus waited until he was in his 30's before getting baptized ?

If i was the parents of those children i would be finding a new church.


in my opinion this is a sin and a crime

other than, my heart goes out to the families, i really am left kind of speachless..

interesting thread ET

~meathead

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
What is your input? Is a child who drowns during baptism saved?

A pastor was baptizing a teenaged boy in a Houston river on Sunday when the boy slipped underwater and never resurfaced.

If you mean "Does it matter that the baptism was left incomplete?", no, it doesn't.
Baptism is simply the "outward and visible sign" of the intention, and the intention is what matters.

Originally posted by Max_TO

Are there any bible quotes that deal specifically with what happens to a child that drowns during a Baptism?
End Transmission,
ET

Hmm . you wonder if thats why Jesus waited until he was in his 30's before getting baptized ?

I guess it harder to drown when you can walk on water

Personally I think that if idiotic priests stopped holding infant or childrens heads under water none of these deaths would have happened.

To answer the OP's question, no I don't think they're saved. I simply think they are murdered and the person or persons responsible should step up and take responsibility.

Our children should be educated in order to make their own informed decisions about religion. Not have it chosen for them before they even comprehend what it is. I don't understand a parent risking death in the name of religion, its truly idiotic, blinkered and indoctrinated thinking or lack of it.

IMHO of course...

maybe they should take precautions and have a lifeguard on duty?
although some baptisms also take place in churches...

i dunno. this subject matter came up in a class recently.
another student was giving a presentation about it.
i wasn't in the mood.

i stood up. grabbed my belongings. and left.

[edit on 29-6-2010 by Esoteric Teacher]

reply to post by DISRAELI


What ????

For the record , if any of you believe that God condemns a baby to hell because the baby wasn't baptized then you need help .

reply to post by woodwardjnr


Ok I laughed at that one

reply to post by Max_TO

The other option offered in the OP was that it was a "sign from God" presumably that the drowned child would be damned.
I was assuring him, implicitly, that it wasn't a sign from God.
Is that so bad?

reply to post by DISRAELI


If I misinterpreted your post I apologize . I do not want to imply your position nor put words in your mouth .

And for anyone that does think that a baby would not " be saved " please see my earlier post .

reply to post by Esoteric Teacher


I had no idea this sort of thing went on in modern day - death by baptism. It seems insane considering how short the submergence time is on most baptisms.

I was raised a Christian and when I was baptized I was under the water for only a few seconds. Of course most of these incidents are babies being baptized, which I find completely stupid in every sense (I was maybe 8 when I was baptized). I'm an atheist now but even as a Christian I thought the idea of dipping a baby underwater in order to forgive sins was absurd. What sin does a baby have to repent for? It hasn't even reached the age of accountability.

I don't think whether the person is saved or not has anything to do with it really (mainly because I don't believe anyone needs salvation). Do I think someone should be arrested? Perhaps. If you're dipping an infant ALL THE WAY below the water, submerging head and all, that should really be a crime. Even when a parent bathes their child they don't dip them all the way under the water or risk drowning. At the very least the child should be taken away and the parent evaluated before a decision is made on what to do...

Death by baptism, and I thought forgoing medical treatment to count on the power of prayer was dumb - yikes.

[edit on 29-6-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

Children should not be baptized. In the Bible, no child was ever baptized for a very good reason.

A person of sufficient age of understanding has to come to the choice to accept what Christ did for them and not have it forced on him.

The Bible is abundantly clear of what baptism is, who it is for, and what it accomplishes. In the Bible, only believers who had placed their faith in Christ were baptized - as a public testimony of their faith and identification with Him. Not for children.

Acts Ch 2, 38
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

Romans Ch 6, 3 & 4
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Children do not have this luxury in some churches. All Christian churches who teach infant baptism are false churches, the real christian churches know this.

However, all people can be drowned by water as we are taught as children when we learn to bathe.

It is not the baptism's fault these children or teens drowned it was the ministers fault for not making sure safeguards were in place.

In most churches the minister or priest will hold the persons nose shut and tell the person to hold their breath. the person is only supposed to be dunked for a moment. This is no different from swimming and people, even good swimmers do drown all the time while swimming because something happens and they suddenly try to breathe water.

Even though baptism is supposed to be done by submersion some churches use a christening and only sprinkle the forehead with a little water. Though this is safer, it is still unbiblical and these churches are also false Christian churches.

If done right there should never be a time when a human is harmed by baptism. True baptism in itself should be 100% safe. Only human error causes harm.




[edit on 29-6-2010 by JohnPhoenix]

Originally posted by Max_TO
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

What ????

For the record , if any of you believe that God condemns a baby to hell because the baby wasn't baptized then you need help .

I thought unbaptized babies went to purgatory. Before they "invented" that I think they went to hell.

I think if a person proclaims they are a catholic then this is what they HAVE to believe. I hate religious hypocrites who pick and choose what to believe even more than I hate religion.

I don't believe submerging a toddler in water will save them. I feel a little sick knowing that deaths aren't really that rare from these 'saving' methods.

They say its perfectly fine because its not that long, but I've been told about an incident in my town where a kid nearly drowned. I believe he was 9, not sure. There were talks about it but it never made news of course. At school, couple years back, they said the priest said he was 'fighting' being saved. Well maybe because you shoved his head in a barrel of water. I'm sure most priests are gentle with this, but I guess this priest had a bit of a vendetta against the kid. Cause apparently he never did that before.

well for one hell dont exist so the baby isn't there... those baby's are sleeping as of now..
2nd... Like someone else pointed out, Jesus waited until he passed his youth before getting baptised. Its seen as a 2nd birth and should only be performed when the subject has willfully and with full understanding, chosen to live his life in servitude to god. Now I dont believe a baby can have a deep understanding of the message of the bible let alone make a choice wich would impact the rest of his/her life...

Also there is not 1 passage in the bible wich even HINTs at baby-baptism... all people baptised were of age that they knew what they were doing...

These practices are in no way godly... wich would make them ungodly...

reply to post by Totalstranger


For the record I am not Catholic , not entirely sure if thats what you were insinuating or not ?

I can't imagine anyone teaching that a baby would go to hell , but I guess some do actually teach and believe this .

Having said that I will go one further and say that some baptize there babies to get gifts and money . For some groups the baptism is a huge deal and gifts of cash play a big role in it .

Another big push to have the baby baptized in some circles is the parents pride and vanity in some cases .

[edit on 29-6-2010 by Max_TO]

Originally posted by Max_TO
reply to post by Totalstranger

 

For the record I am not Catholic , not entirely sure if thats what you were insinuating or not ?

I can't imagine anyone teaching that a baby would go to hell , but I guess some do actually teach and believe this .

Having said that I will go one further and say that some baptize there babies to get gifts and money . For some groups the baptism is a huge deal and gifts of cash play a big role in it .

Another big push to have the baby baptized in some circles is the parents pride and vanity in some cases .

[edit on 29-6-2010 by Max_TO]

What do you think about peer pressure, or the reverent naggin at your head saying god wants your child to be his servant. After drowning your child he'll say that god simply needed a new angel... The most infuriating of this is that they label god as an evil entity by sprouting this load of crap...

All my family and I were baptised as babies in a Roman Catholic church, the priest just sprinkles some holy water onto the forehead and gives a blessing. I do not follow the faith now and most of my family don't either. It's quite hypocritical as we only go to church for hatches matches and dispatches.

Also in England you receive all holy sacrements by the age of about 14. I really only understood what is was all about much later, so I agree with the posters who state you should be much older before you are 'given' these sacrements.

Back on point, shouldn't the priests be charged with manslaughter or death by recklessness if a baby dies after being submerged in water?

Interesting topic to debate, will keep following.