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A Christian perspective.

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posted on Jun, 13 2004 @ 10:36 PM
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Due to the fact that this is getting off the paranormal topic, I am moving this to the Religion forum. If you object, u2u me and tell me why and I will think about moving back here, if it will stay on topic.

regs out...




posted on Jun, 13 2004 @ 11:32 PM
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If you really want proof of organized religion's treatment of spiritual phenomena, just go to your local church and tell them that you see visions and hear voices. They will probably see to it that you get "treatment."



posted on Jun, 13 2004 @ 11:39 PM
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Yeah, herm, probably in the form of an exorcism too. You are hearing foices and "walking on the astral plane" therefore you must be possessed.

regs out...



posted on Jun, 14 2004 @ 12:55 AM
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Originally posted by regs
Due to the fact that this is getting off the paranormal topic, I am moving this to the Religion forum. If you object, u2u me and tell me why and I will think about moving back here, if it will stay on topic.

regs out...


I was certainly hoping to keep this thread firmly on topic - hence my repeated requests for comments focused on the website I linked to in my inital post. However it appears that the boat drifted while I slept! No worries.

I am not here to advocate 'organized religion' or your 'local church'. I am here to seek understanding about what different people believe and why they believe it.

I am not getting many answers. Instead I am receiving eyefuls of frustration against issues I have not raised.

Oh well.

Here goes with my next attempt to steer us back onto topic!

www.espministries.com...

The founder of this ministry (and perhaps I need to make it clear that prior to a google search right before starting this thread I had never heard of it) claims to have been heavily involved in the spirit world...

"Ben's involvement in Spiritualism became more and more profound, until he was fully practicing as a trance medium, believing that he was contacting the dead for beneficial purposes.

In 1964 he came to the United States to "stir up" Spiritualist activity here..."

He quite clearly came to the realization that he was dealing with a power that had a purpose. He equally clearly decided that he could not support that purpose.

"But many people have rejected Christ and turned to other sources to fill the void that they feel. And thus the interest and fascination in the occult is rampant today."

I put forward that the purpose of the spirit world is primarily to distract the attention of humanity from God. Humanity is interfacing with high intelligence that is not going to blow it's cover by behaving like typical 'cartoon' spiritual evil. The best form of distraction is to provide something that appears superficially similiar to that which you are opposing.

This is perhaps the crux of the argument from the website:

"The religion [spiritualism] deceives us by claiming to contact the dead; actually these contacts are demons who are impersonating the dead. Those who practice such divinations are actually violating the first commandment given by God---"Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:3)-and are encouraging demon activity. There is much danger inherent in such practices because of the resulting imbalance of the mind and soul when one allows demons to control his thoughts and actions."

So we must examine this carefully. Do we believe in the existence of good and evil? Do we think that just as physical good and evil battle, so does spiritual good and evil? Do we think that it is important to be discerning when dealing with the spirit world - or in other words do we acknowledge that the spirit world holds dangers for the unwary traveler?

Do we accept accountability for our actions?

Or is there absolutely no reason for anyone to seek the ultimate truth as to our responsibilities and purpose of existence - thereby leaving us free to drift as best we see fit?

Deny ignorance.

My next post will be about free will....






posted on Jun, 14 2004 @ 03:06 AM
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Originally posted by dlbrandt

God got my attention when my mom got breast cancer. Just a little thought.


No....The thought of death entered your mind and you got scared. God had nothing to do with it.



Originally posted by dlbrandt

King David committed adultery with Bathsheba got he pregnant and then killed her husband. God didn't approve of that, God even took the life of the child.(the child went to heaven) He puts these stories in their to show me that When I sin consequences will result from it.


Who didn't approve of that? God? How do you know? Coz the bible said so? Who told the bible? Men. Who really didn't approve of the Adultery? Men. Who killed who? Who killed the child? How do you know the child went to heaven? How do you know heaven even exists? God didn't put those stories in the bible. Men did. And it's all about controlling you and everyone else. Controlling as much people as possible. Making them live certain ways or else some magical being will punish them and send them to some magical hell, and if they are good little boys and girls, will go to heaven.

All you are is a blind sheep. Nothing but a blind sheep. I'm guessing your into metaphores because you read the bible and have closed yourself off to any other kind of thought. How about you open your eyes, open your mind, and start thnking about some things LOGICALLY.

I suggest you even just check out this site and have a bit of a read. It'll really get your mind thinking.

www.jovialatheist.com...



posted on Jun, 14 2004 @ 08:21 AM
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I just love it when people tear each other apart! So what exactly is the outcome of this little fight?

[Edited on 14-6-2004 by Panzerschreck]



posted on Jun, 14 2004 @ 10:12 AM
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The US is a free country


Hahaha...Really? I never noticed.



posted on Jun, 14 2004 @ 10:23 AM
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Originally posted by Panzerschreck
I just love it when people tear each other apart! So what exactly is the outcome of this little fight?

[Edited on 14-6-2004 by Panzerschreck]


I don't think there is any 'tearing apart' going on here. Hopefully, everyone taking part in this thread is genuinely seeking the truth, and as such feelings can get a little bit strong. Important subjects cause heated debate!

However I trust that we can all still remain grounded in respect for each other and realise that we all share the same goal - truth.

Now - to continue the friendly debate...

I don't think anyone has yet answered one of my most important questions in this thread - namely is the spirit world something that we need to approach cautiously? Does anyone here have any experiences to relate that may suggest something out there in the spirit world doesn't have our best interests in mind?

Or is everyone completely satisfied that the entire spirit world is friendly and good?

I'm asking for input from every angle here.

I personally have NO experience with the spirit world outside of my life as a Christian. In other words, I am familiar with the presence of God as a Spirit, and have also felt what I understand to be the presence of demonic spiritual beings. I certainly have no experience of being in the presence of human spirits (deceased relatives or other people).

I need help to understand how other people interpret such experiences and why they are convinced that the presences they feel are indeed human - rather than unhuman - spirits.

Remember - I am NOT here to attempt to force my beliefs on anyone. I am here to understand why other people don't share my beliefs! It is perhaps a subtle distinction, but it is a genuine one.

Returning to the website I keep on refering to [ www.espministries.com... ], I want to find out more about what people understand to be the links (if any) between such things as seances, pornography, Spiritualism (as a religion) and oh, Harry Potter! Is it indeed incorrect to put all these things into the same category (i.e. negative spiritual influences)?

Am I asking enough questions to keep everyone busy?

hehe.

I did say in my last post that my next post would be about free will..

Everything is about free will!

So - will you or will you not join me in respectful, serious, thoughtful debate?



[edit - corrected wrong and possibly misleading word choice]

[edit on 6/14/2004 by illimey]



posted on Jun, 14 2004 @ 10:45 AM
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J.K. Rowling admits that the potions, curses, and spells that she writes about are authentic and that she obtained them from books that promote the religion of witchcraft. She writes her book series as fantasies, but the facts and details that she describes about witchcraft are very real!



Really, last time I looked I didn't see Wiccans carrying little wands and saying "LEVIOSA!!". How people believe THIS stuff is amazing too. Does this guy know the Wiccans are peaceful...or he just uses stereotypes of witches to lure you into believe. I could link the guy that made to sight to Satan, and it would sound as plausible as his ideas.





When a Christian receives Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, the Holy Spirit enters that Christian's body, soul and spirit. God has claimed that person for His own and as a result, demons cannot occupy the same place as the Holy Spirit. Satan knows this and that is why he tries so hard to get to people first and have his demons or demonic influence control or affect that person.


I have taken Communion and was a catholic for many years...I still believe in God though. So according to this guy since God is in me I am his. I guess I can't be possessed.

[img]http://www.espministries.com/images/Spiritualism.gif[/img


HAHAHA! This pic made me laugh.




murder, rape,


This is what D n D teaches. I use to play it...and I like Roleplaying a bit, but the idea is that YOU creat the story. The GAME doesn't make the Rape happen if there is any. It is the individual behind the pieces. Sure any board game can promote rape and murder I guess.

[edit on 14-6-2004 by Yngwie]



posted on Jun, 14 2004 @ 12:31 PM
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Returning to the website I keep on refering to [ www.espministries.com... ], I want to find out more about what people understand to be the links (if any) between such things as seances, pornography, Spiritualism (as a religion) and oh, Harry Potter! Is it indeed incorrect to put all these things into the same category (i.e. negative spiritual influences)?


after reading as much of this sites unk che as i could i find it to be the usual
half truths, distortions, and disinformation that is usually found on this type site.

please give your definition of pornography and what you define as spiritualism.




I don't think anyone has yet answered one of my most important questions in this thread - namely is the spirit world something that we need to approach cautiously? Does anyone here have any experiences to relate that may suggest something out there in the spirit world doesn't have our best interests in mind?


i have had several "experiences" with the spirit world but you would not i feel
be interested as they were all of a positive nature, and it would appear from
this that you are only interested in negative ones.





Most people on these forums believe in God/god/gods/ in one form or another.



you have shown in this comment your total disregard for the beliefs of others.
by using upper case letters when refering to your god and lower case when refering to others God/Gods. as you are a christian and virtually all trace
of the feminine principle/ Goddess was long ago removed from that belief
system i will overlook your lack of discourse on that point..

perhaps my next post will help to clear up any questions you may have on my own beliefs.



posted on Jun, 14 2004 @ 12:33 PM
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re: Religious Rivalries
Dear Children (and believe us, that's all of you), We consider ourselves pretty patient folks. For instance, look at the Grand Canyon. It took millions of years to get it right
We've been patient through your fashions, civilizations, wars and schemes.
We want to let you know about some of the things that are starting to tick Us off.
First of all, your religious rivalries are driving Us up a wall. Enough already! Let's get one thing straight: These are YOUR religions, not Ours. We're beyond them all. Every one of your religions claims there is only one of Us (which by the way, is absolutely true). And each claims its scriptures were written personally by us, and that all the other scriptures are man-made. How do We even begin to put a stop to such complicated nonsense?
Okay, listen up now. We're your Father AND Mother, and We don't play favorites among Our children.
Also, We hate to break it to you, but We don't write. Our longhand is awful, and We've always been more of "doers" anyway. So, ALL of your books, including those Bibles, were written by men and women. They were inspired, remarkable people, but they also made mistakes here and there. We made sure of that so that you would never trust a written word more than your own living heart.
You see, one human being to Us, even a bum on the street, is worth more than all the Holy Books in the world. That's just the kind of folks we are. Our spirit is not a historical thing. It's alive right here, right now, as fresh as your next breath.
.Holy books and religious rites are sacred and powerful, but not more so than the least of you. They were only meant to steer you in the right direction, not to keep you arguing with each other, and certainly not to keep you from trusting your own personal connection with Us.
Which brings Us to Our next point about your nonsense; you act like We need you and your religions to stick up for Us or "win souls" for Our sake. Please, don't do Us any favors. We can stand quite well on our own, thank you. We don't need you to defend Us, and We don't need constant credit. We just want you to be good to each other.
The thing is, We want you to stop thinking of religion as some sort of loyalty pledge to Us.
The true purpose of your religion is so that YOU can become more aware of Us, not the other way around. Believe Us, We know you already. We know what's in each of your hearts, and We love you with no strings attached.
Lighten up and enjoy Us. That's what religion is best for. What you seem to forget is how mysterious We are.
You look at the petty differences in your Scriptures and say, "Well, if THIS is the truth, then THAT can't be!" But instead of trying to figure out Our Paradoxes and Unfathomable Nature, which by the way, you NEVER will, why not open your hearts to the simple common threads in all religions.
You know what We're talking about. Love and respect everyone. Be kind, even when life is scary or confusing. Take courage and be of good cheer, for We are always with you. Learn how to be quiet, so you can hear Our still, small voice. (We don't like to shout).
Leave the world a better place by living your life with dignity and gracefulness, for you are Our Own Children. Hold back nothing from life, for the parts of you that can die surely will, and the parts that can't, won't.
Simple stuff. Why do you keep making it so complicated? It's like you're always looking for an excuse to be upset. And We're very tired of being your main excuse. Do you think We care whether you call Us: Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, Diana, Wakantonka, Brahma, Cerridwen, Father, Mother, God, Goddess or even the Void of Nirvana? Do you think We care which of Our special children you feel closest to, Jesus, Mary, Buddha, Krishna, Gerald, Mohammed or any of the others? You can call Us and Our Special Ones any name you choose, if only you would go about Our business of loving one another as We love you. How can you keep neglecting something so simple?
We're not telling you to abandon your religions. Enjoy your religions, honor them, and learn from them, just as you should enjoy, honor, and learn from your parents.
Know that Our Special Children, the ones that your religions revolve around, all live in the same place, (Our heart), and they get along perfectly, We assure you.
The clergy must stop creating a myth of sibling rivalry where there is none. Our blessed children of Earth, the world has grown too small for your pervasive religious bigotries and confusion. The whole planet is connected by air travel, satellite dishes, telephones, fax machines, rock concerts, diseases, and mutual needs and concerns.
Get with the program! If you really want to help, then commit yourselves to figuring out how to feed your hungry, clothe your naked, protect your abused, and shelter your poor. And just as importantly, make your own everyday life a shining example of kindness and good humor. We've given you all the resources you need, if only you abandon your fear of each other and begin living, loving and laughing together.
We're not really ticked off. We just wanted to grab your attention because We hate to see you suffer.
In Perfect Love and Perfect Trust,
Us
RowanHeatherMyst 06/02/2004



posted on Jun, 14 2004 @ 05:06 PM
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Dealing with the Spirit is very dangerous. So is Christianity; ask any victim of the crusades.



posted on Jun, 14 2004 @ 07:53 PM
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I actually see where you’re coming from man. We all have theses questions but none of us really knows the “truth”. We can only experience and then draw a opinion. I am about to give my opinion on what I believe.


Originally posted by illimey
So we must examine this carefully. Do we believe in the existence of good and evil?


When I think of Good I think of God, when I think of evil I think of the absence of God. We can never grasp what God “is” but we can observe creation as it is happening around us everyday. Creation is a reflection of God but not God, at least not to me. Everything that is (the universe) is good because God created it. Since God created everything in his reflection there is no “ultimate” evil. Evil is straying away from the love of God.

Everything in creation is dependent on something thing else for survival. We humans think that we control our own destiny yet we are not. If the sun were to not come up tomorrow or an asteroid hit the earth we would all perish. That shows that there is some type of predestination. It really would not be punishment from God but more nature taking its course. We all have our allotted time and that is determined by a higher force.


Originally posted by illimey
Do we think that just as physical good and evil battle, so does spiritual good and evil?

Do we think that it is important to be discerning when dealing with the spirit world - or in other words do we acknowledge that the spirit world holds dangers for the unwary traveler?


These two things are a creation of God, therefore each serves it’s own purpose. How would you know what “Good” is with not knowing “evil”. What would you have it to compare to.

I think that when you look at a child they kind of show the nature of the human sprit. I look at my nephew and see that he is in awe of the world around him. He has not committed a bad thing in his life so far so you can say that he knows neither what we call “good” or “evil” all he knows is gratification and the absence of his gratification. When he is not gratified he does either one of 2 things looks for something else to grab his attention or cries. Does he know evil…I don’t think so but I do know that he knows what good is because it will have his attention and he will be smiling and laughing.

So to go back to your question I don’t think God has to battle anything. He created everything therefore we are just battling our selves, the sprit world included because this is also created by God and serves it’s own purpose that we can’t not attempt to understand. That is why with most people it is better left alone. But if you have God in your heart and truly believe what is there it be afraid of? Show your love and belief in God by doing things you consider to be to be righteous for you are human and you will make mistakes.


Originally posted by illimey
Do we accept accountability for our actions?

Or is there absolutely no reason for anyone to seek the ultimate truth as to our responsibilities and purpose of existence - thereby leaving us free to drift as best we see fit?

Deny ignorance.



Ignorance is bliss but once you awaken from ignorance of a certain subject, what you do with that knowledge (whether it is finding out that Santa is not real or that the sprit world can interact with the physical world) is up to you. You can only hope that what you are doing is truly good and a reflection of what you believe.

I don’t think God can Judge any person that is ignorant on any subject. It’s almost like a catch-22. With the knowledge of certain things you have responsibility with your newfound knowledge. It can either help you grow and understand things better, or it can be a burden and confuse you, which in turn might lead you astray. And I think that is what sin is, the burden of knowing that what you are doing is “right” or “wrong”. You just have to find a balance and hope that you come to some sort of understaning.

With knowledge comes your responsibility to teach it to others. If you preach or condemn people you might scare them into believing certain things, turn them away from you or have them believe that you speak the “truth”. That is why I think that we must be tolerant of ignorant people, because someone who is ignorant really doesn’t know any better. From the Hangings of people in the south for no apparent reason to the senseless terrorists attacks that we see everyday on television. Theses people believe that what they are doing is just because somebody down the line told them “something” and they pertain it to it as “truth”.

Who you should really be critical of are the people who have certain knowledge but use it to pit us against each other and to further there own gain. I don’t thin that there is some “ultimate” truth. There are some things that you can hold as true but they are not an “ultimate” truth. For example when people thought the world was flat. If you were to tell them that it is round, at that point in time you might have been able to label that knowledge as an “ultimate” truth( and you might of gotten killed for teaching the works of “Satan”).

I think that all we can do is to hope to understand this small and puny world around us because when you think about it we all are ignorant of one thing or another. We can only hope that once we understand we can use our newfound knowledge to better ourselves and maybe humanity. If not humanity then one or two people that we hold close to our hearts. And for me that is why I believe in a higher power and the sprit world.

Deny Ignorance and accept responsibility.



posted on Jun, 15 2004 @ 12:19 AM
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Personally, I believe that it is impossible for we, as finite beings, to truly comprehend the Infinite. It seems extremely arrogant for someone to claim otherwise. All we can do is come up with our own way of dealing with our place on this Earth and a justification for how we live our lives. Many years of study led me to conceive of Deity as all life, all energy, and all forms of the Divine. We perceive different aspects of Deity, be it God, Shiva, Hecate, etc., but each is only one facet of an enormous whole. Deity encompasses all aspects, be they creative or destructive, and it is only our judgment based on personal life impact that leads us to put the labels "good" and "evil" on them.

Psychic powers are, IMHO, hard-wired into our brains. We all have access to them, though some have certain abilities inherited or turned on through trauma & biochemical changes, while others develop them gradually. Most use them in service of other people, be it for healing, defense or other means. To those who have such abilities, they are no more unnatural than an arm or a leg. It's just part of us. It's easy for those who don't experience such things in their daily lives to condemn them as evil or coming from some infernal source, as they don't understand that it's just as natural as breathing. We who have them choose to see them as gifts from the Creator(s) of our choice (or not, to those who don't acknowledge deital influence).

My mother-in-law, a devout Baptist, can stop serious bleeding through prayer. I've seen it work. Yet some of her own congregation call her use of this gift a demonic power. She has no problem with me, her pagan/Witch daughter-in-law, because we both use our abilities to help other people. (Ironically, when the people who condemn us the loudest come to us for help and it is given without question or recrimination, they resent us all the more and somehow blame us for their troubles.) Good and evil resides in the heart of every person, and it is how we use our gifts and what we do in our lives that reflects what kind of person we are. Not the particular books we swear by.

Edited to correct some grammatical errors.

[edit on 15-6-2004 by Hecate100]



posted on Jun, 15 2004 @ 12:47 AM
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Thanks to everyone for taking part in this thread. Some excellent and thought provoking recent posts. I don't have the brain power to contribute tonight (only got three hours sleep today and night shifts always take their toll on my ability to be coherent even when I do manage to get enough sleep!)

Hopefully I will have the time and mental energy to continue this discussion soon - in the meantime please feel free to carry on without me!

Thanks again.



posted on Jun, 15 2004 @ 10:04 PM
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Originally posted by DaRAGE

Originally posted by dlbrandt

God got my attention when my mom got breast cancer. Just a little thought.


No....The thought of death entered your mind and you got scared. God had nothing to do with it.



Originally posted by dlbrandt

King David committed adultery with Bathsheba got he pregnant and then killed her husband. God didn't approve of that, God even took the life of the child.(the child went to heaven) He puts these stories in their to show me that When I sin consequences will result from it.


Who didn't approve of that? God? How do you know? Coz the bible said so? Who told the bible? Men. Who really didn't approve of the Adultery? Men. Who killed who? Who killed the child? How do you know the child went to heaven? How do you know heaven even exists? God didn't put those stories in the bible. Men did. And it's all about controlling you and everyone else. Controlling as much people as possible. Making them live certain ways or else some magical being will punish them and send them to some magical hell, and if they are good little boys and girls, will go to heaven.

All you are is a blind sheep. Nothing but a blind sheep. I'm guessing your into metaphores because you read the bible and have closed yourself off to any other kind of thought. How about you open your eyes, open your mind, and start thnking about some things LOGICALLY.

I suggest you even just check out this site and have a bit of a read. It'll really get your mind thinking.

www.jovialatheist.com...


Well, yah the thought of death entered my mind. I didn't want my mom to die and then my dad would be alone. My mom is also saved so I know where she went and is. God either causes or allows everything. Did God give my mom cancer? No, cancer is a result of the fallen world we live in. Did God allow my mom to get cancer? Absolutely, He is in control of everything. So why does God allow bad things to happen to anybody. Because in trial and heartache we have the impurities in us brought to the surface so that we can deal with them and in turn to also help others in their trials. We are being prepared to rule and reign with Him. And for like the 4th time, does this mean I am better than anyone else, NO! What christians have with our God anybody can have, or not have. Everyone must decide on their own. I can't choose for you or make you choose. But you can't expect me to be quiet about what I know is truth. He also allows trials to bring people, whom He loves to Him. There are still things in this life that I have no reason why God has allowed in my life. That's where patience comes in. All of my "why's" will not be answered until I see Him face to face.



posted on Jun, 15 2004 @ 10:38 PM
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Originally posted by herm

Dealing with the Spirit is very dangerous. So is Christianity; ask any victim of the crusades.


I answered this question before on another question . The crusades were not of God. They were mans idea. Now it gets tricky beacause I'm going to tell you that some of the practices of the catholic church are not right. And people will say I'm bashing catholics. I'm telling you that the ways the institution require you to worship God are not what god requires of you. Someone comes to the christian God by realizing they are a sinner in need of a Savior. God is 1oo% Holy and cannot not look upon sin. My sin kept me from Him in all the fullness He desires. You see this universe is His, He made it. He also required payment for my sin. I could live my own life and die and keep my sin and be seperated from Him forever, or accept the fact that He sent Himself(Jesus Christ, who wanted to come and do this) and have my sin penalty transferred to Christ. Christ became my sin for me. God took out His judgement for my sin upon Christ.(Once again Christ knew He was going to have to do this before the foundation of the world). I believe and have accepted Christ as my Savior, and I know 100% I'm forgiven. I don't have my Bible with me, but I think it's in 1st John that God tells us that we can know we are saved by what Christ has done. My decision was to believe in Jesus. I'm not going to heaven because I'm good. I've spoken words of comfort to someone and 2 minutes later cursed people. My righteousness isn't based upon me, It's based on the completed work of Christ. Have you ever heard this illuustration. You are standing before a judge on a $300 dollar ticket. Based upon the witnesses the judge finds you guilty and orders you to pay the fine. You don't have the money. You are sentenced to jail. After the judge sentences you He takes off His robe comes down and stands beside you, pulls out his wallet and takes out $300 and puts it on the bench. He goes back up and puts on his robe and declares that the fine has been paid in full, and you are now free to go. That's what Christ did. He left the glory of Heaven, became like me, paid MY fine, and is now in heaven. Everytime satan accuses me before the Father about the sin I've just committed, Christ simply says PAID IN FULL. I cannot and will not deny my God.



posted on Jun, 16 2004 @ 01:33 AM
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Originally posted by dlbrandt

Originally posted by herm

Dealing with the Spirit is very dangerous. So is Christianity; ask any victim of the crusades.


I answered this question before on another question . The crusades were not of God. They were mans idea. Now it gets tricky beacause I'm going to tell you that some of the practices of the catholic church are not right. And people will say I'm bashing catholics. I'm telling you that the ways the institution require you to worship God are not what god requires of you. Someone comes to the christian God by realizing they are a sinner in need of a Savior. God is 1oo% Holy and cannot not look upon sin. My sin kept me from Him in all the fullness He desires. You see this universe is His, He made it. He also required payment for my sin. I could live my own life and die and keep my sin and be seperated from Him forever, or accept the fact that He sent Himself(Jesus Christ, who wanted to come and do this) and have my sin penalty transferred to Christ. Christ became my sin for me. God took out His judgement for my sin upon Christ.(Once again Christ knew He was going to have to do this before the foundation of the world). I believe and have accepted Christ as my Savior, and I know 100% I'm forgiven. I don't have my Bible with me, but I think it's in 1st John that God tells us that we can know we are saved by what Christ has done. My decision was to believe in Jesus. I'm not going to heaven because I'm good. I've spoken words of comfort to someone and 2 minutes later cursed people. My righteousness isn't based upon me, It's based on the completed work of Christ. Have you ever heard this illuustration. You are standing before a judge on a $300 dollar ticket. Based upon the witnesses the judge finds you guilty and orders you to pay the fine. You don't have the money. You are sentenced to jail. After the judge sentences you He takes off His robe comes down and stands beside you, pulls out his wallet and takes out $300 and puts it on the bench. He goes back up and puts on his robe and declares that the fine has been paid in full, and you are now free to go. That's what Christ did. He left the glory of Heaven, became like me, paid MY fine, and is now in heaven. Everytime satan accuses me before the Father about the sin I've just committed, Christ simply says PAID IN FULL. I cannot and will not deny my God.




And just in case that wasn't clear enough:






posted on Jun, 16 2004 @ 02:16 AM
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Originally posted by Hecate100
Personally, I believe that it is impossible for we, as finite beings, to truly comprehend the Infinite.


We are indeed finite beings in that there was a point prior to which we didn't exist, however we are also infinite beings because we are all going to exist eternally...


It seems extremely arrogant for someone to claim otherwise.


As a Christian, I truly attempt to boast only in the object of my faith (Christ) rather than in my own understanding of it. However, I also believe that I comprehend more about God than people who don't share my faith... after all, one of the main claims I make as a Christian is that Jesus is the ONLY way, the ONLY truth and the ONLY life - therefore how can people who don't share my faith understand the infinite in the way that I do?


All we can do is come up with our own way of dealing with our place on this Earth and a justification for how we live our lives.


No. All we can do to justify ourselves and the way we live our lives is to follow God's way of 'dealing with our place on this earth'. It is supremely arrogant of humanity to think it can come up with individual plans for self justification. There is only one way - freely open to all.



Many years of study led me to conceive of Deity as all life, all energy, and all forms of the Divine. We perceive different aspects of Deity, be it God, Shiva, Hecate, etc., but each is only one facet of an enormous whole. Deity encompasses all aspects, be they creative or destructive, and it is only our judgment based on personal life impact that leads us to put the labels "good" and "evil" on them.


What a complicated scenario! God is indeed all-encompassing in that He is Creator of all, however God is a perfect, complete entity as an individual being. God can of course manifest Himself in any form He chooses, however it is misleading to then think of that particular manifestation as being 'part of' God. God is omnipresent - all seeing, all powerful and all God. And there is only one - how could there possibly be multiple all encompassing, all powerful, perfect beings?


Psychic powers are, IMHO, hard-wired into our brains. We all have access to them, though some have certain abilities inherited or turned on through trauma & biochemical changes, while others develop them gradually. Most use them in service of other people, be it for healing, defense or other means. To those who have such abilities, they are no more unnatural than an arm or a leg. It's just part of us. It's easy for those who don't experience such things in their daily lives to condemn them as evil or coming from some infernal source, as they don't understand that it's just as natural as breathing. We who have them choose to see them as gifts from the Creator(s) of our choice (or not, to those who don't acknowledge deital influence).


Interesting. We are all spiritual beings who all have the inate ability to communicate with the spirit world. And yes, I can agree that we all have different levels of ability when it comes to using the gilft we all possess. Firstly - it helps when one actually BELIEVES in the spirit world - and many Christians seemingly choose not to in the way that you and I do. The problems arise when the spirit world is delved into by individuals who do not believe that it is truly split between good and evil. There is no such thing as a spiritual being that 'sits on the fence' as far as purpose in existence! Spirits are either 100% for or 100% against God. They don't have the same 'grey areas' that humanity has developed. Angels and related beings (that is what I really mean when I say 'spirits', my Christian faith removes all possibility of, for example, deceased human souls floating around) that rebelled are forever battling to draw humanity's attention away from God.


My mother-in-law, a devout Baptist, can stop serious bleeding through prayer. I've seen it work. Yet some of her own congregation call her use of this gift a demonic power. She has no problem with me, her pagan/Witch daughter-in-law, because we both use our abilities to help other people. (Ironically, when the people who condemn us the loudest come to us for help and it is given without question or recrimination, they resent us all the more and somehow blame us for their troubles.)


This is a difficult subject. Yes of course God can and does answer prayer and heal the sick in miraculous ways. God can do so directly, or He can use angelic powers to intervene. Now, as previously stated the spirit world is split between 100% good and 100% evil beings - WHO SHARE SIMILAR POWERS! If a healing takes place and it is not totally obviously the result of genuine prayer and a desire on the part of the healer that it may be used for God's glory it is quite possible that the healing power has not come from God. In other words - demons can heal, and if they can do so in such a way as to draw people's attention away from God then that makes them very happy indeed.


Good and evil resides in the heart of every person, and it is how we use our gifts and what we do in our lives that reflects what kind of person we are. Not the particular books we swear by.


I agree. However...

The ultimate question is:

Why? Why are we all as individuals such a mess of good and evil? It is utterly impossible (surely) to believe in a divine Creator that created us this way. That would be cruelty beyond belief. So God created us perfect, and the perfect became imperfect. Can we re-attain that perfection through our own efforts? Is it possible for the imperfect to make itself perfect? Certainly not by swearing on any particular book! Seems to me that we are all in need of a perfect example to hold onto and commit our lives to....




Edited to correct some grammatical errors.

[edit on 15-6-2004 by Hecate100]



posted on Jun, 16 2004 @ 02:40 AM
link   

Originally posted by stalkingwolf



Returning to the website I keep on refering to [ www.espministries.com... ], I want to find out more about what people understand to be the links (if any) between such things as seances, pornography, Spiritualism (as a religion) and oh, Harry Potter! Is it indeed incorrect to put all these things into the same category (i.e. negative spiritual influences)?


after reading as much of this sites unk che as i could i find it to be the usual
half truths, distortions, and disinformation that is usually found on this type site.

please give your definition of pornography and what you define as spiritualism.




I don't think anyone has yet answered one of my most important questions in this thread - namely is the spirit world something that we need to approach cautiously? Does anyone here have any experiences to relate that may suggest something out there in the spirit world doesn't have our best interests in mind?


i have had several "experiences" with the spirit world but you would not i feel
be interested as they were all of a positive nature, and it would appear from
this that you are only interested in negative ones.





Most people on these forums believe in God/god/gods/ in one form or another.



you have shown in this comment your total disregard for the beliefs of others.
by using upper case letters when refering to your god and lower case when refering to others God/Gods. as you are a christian and virtually all trace
of the feminine principle/ Goddess was long ago removed from that belief
system i will overlook your lack of discourse on that point..

perhaps my next post will help to clear up any questions you may have on my own beliefs.


"i have had several "experiences" with the spirit world but you would not i feel
be interested as they were all of a positive nature, and it would appear from
this that you are only interested in negative ones."

Not true. I genuinely want to learn more about your (and other's) interactions with the spirit world and your understanding of those interactions.

"you have shown in this comment your total disregard for the beliefs of others.
by using upper case letters when refering to your god and lower case when refering to others God/Gods."

I woudl far rather disregard the beliefs of others than dishonour God by failing to distinguish between Him and false deities. In other words, I refer to God with a capital 'G' precisely BECAUSE I do not hold other beliefs. God is God. gods are everything else that humanity puts it's faith in - from money to morals. And God can never be viewed in any humanly definable gender specific manner. I admit that the useage of 'He' etc as a personal pronoun for God is extremely misleading - but I don't quite know what to do about that.

"please give your definition of pornography and what you define as spiritualism."

Good question - thanks. Pornography is the misuse of human sexuality and physical appearance for self gratification or profit.

Spiritualism (as I define it) refers to any contact with the spirit world that is attempted by any individual who does not trust in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord. That is a huge area of activity!!





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