J-10,from China,I am proud of it

Well perhaps if you made yourself more clearer with what you typed then I wouldnt have needed you to clarify what you meant.

You’re under the delusion that my countries men and women don’t work. Care to show me some factual evidence to back that claim? Would you care to explain to me as to why America has a 4.6% unemployment rate? You do know what the word unemployment means, right? America didn’t become a MEGAPOWER by having the American people sit on there ass doing nothing. And it certainly doesn’t maintain that status today by the American people sitting on there ass doing nothing.

We will see ...

Here’s a little about unemployment I suggest you educate yourself with it.
Edit] Opps. You don’t get wikipedia my bad. That’s one of those sites the Chinese government has chosen to block from its citizens. Why is that sino? Care to explain what beef your Government has with wikipedia?

no need open it, indeed. how great ameirca media is ? the media educated such people like you ...

Ok. An expert in what exactly? Where did you work at in Europe? How about in the Americas? And Asia? What did you do, and what kind of work were you doing at these locations?

Now, you’re not too scared to show your wage over the internet to a college student are you? Is it possible that I make more then you?

ok, database perfomance tunning ? didn't you know anything about that. you guys pay me almost 10 times of yours an hour and you never want to believe it... (my bad, not double, thought you are not that bad at the beginning)

Don’t flatter yourself. Did I have nothing to say after I said I couldn’t decipher your English? No, no I didn’t! Perhaps you missed it. I suggest you go back and read it again. You managed to take a very small portion of what I actually said and ran with it... Here it is agin, below. I suggest you read the full statement before rushing to judgment.

even the deciper english can bit you without problem. can you bit anyone using another language like I bit you ... hahaha ...

I honestly hope no ill will towards the Chinese people. But your government, like it has been proven in the past will democratize or it will fall. The fairtax will hurt the chinese economy. Its a proven fact. It will make americas economy stronger, but at the expense of the chinas economy and many other nations economys. It will suck jobs that had once been outsourced from america back in to the US. Americas economy is expected to grow 10.5 % in the first year under the fairtax. And is expected to double Americas current economic size by 2015. Now im not one to get into pissing contest but that will pretty much leave you ChinComs in the dust.
Good luck indeed....
Ladies and Gentleman. There you have it.

You can wrote a book and sale it to america... hahaha... Mr. scientist.

Perhaps you focus on the problems America has a bit to much? All in the while ignoring all the postives America has going for it. Futher proveing you to have a biased view against America. You almost have this gleam to you when talking about americas problems. That is what we here in the states call envy. And your showing all the symptoms. No country is perfect, that goes for America too.

But entertain my mind some more. What is the 'real' problem with America? Tell me since you seem to think you know just what it is.... (hint. It has nothing to do with imagination either )

hohoho...my bad, america is so great how come has any problem, right?

Why is your government so great? There are over 700,000,000 impoverished chinese, An estimated 300,000,000 drink unsafe and contaminated water. Many of chinas residents burn stoves and furnaces with unrefined coal and live in toxic pollutants that cause widespread respiratory problems. Diseases such as aids are running rampant throughout the chinese country side. Your government suppresses its people through various methods and techniques. And pollution is out of control. Yea good job china...

haha ... not 700,000,000 even more like 1,000,000,000 ... I already show my point before ... how about the rest of, not poor people ... those already make such big economy ( don't show me the CIA reprot )

Spoken like a true communist.

I like this one, but only for you ... not others.

America being 'imaginative' is not the problem. So if that was your case for arguement it holds no water... But keep reaching buddy....

Do you normally make a point in your pointless 'posts'? Or is that the whole point? To not have one? Because to you, it is pointless. But, does it not take an imagination to make a point?

Your problem is your confusing reality with imagination. And to you, somehow not having an imagination is as good or better then having one.

An imagination is what everything starts out as. For example a dream is part of an imagination. If you don’t have an imagination then you have no future. And no chance at making that dream come true. You just become a robot with no emotion. Someone who cant think for themselves. Is this what we should come to expect from the chinese?
Alright, my Dr. Phil moment is over. But… If that’s the case for china, then the future of china looks gleam indeed.

I already define 'imagination' in my way in my previous post, check it out ...

semperfoo, open a new thread, let's continue...


sorry to others ...

Mod Note: Post On Topic – Please Review This Link.

Originally posted by sino


On April 12, 2006 the Pakistani cabinet approved the purchase of at least 36 J-10s under the designation "FC-10".

Form this has been posted before, www.air-attack.com...

And this is due to aggressive publicity and marketing in foreign markets?
Maybe a little research on why thePAF is choosing the FC-10 is in order.
Points to research:
1)Pressler Amendment
2)Growing Indo-US alliance
3)Possibility of lethargic(or even withdrawal) of maintenance,spares,logistics support for a/c and ground systems during a conflict that could very well be against American interests.

The PAF SWEARS by the F-16. Its been the very core of their morale ever since the 80s. Its the only fighter(post 1980) that has a chance of matching up to the Su-30s, MiG 29s, Mirage 2000s,126 MRCA today. The JF-17 is not a fighter that can match up to these even today. Its more of a backbone enhancement and response to the LCA.
So if the PAF is cutting down of blk 50 F-16s with all the AMRAAM/JDAM/HMCS jazz for FC-10s then there can only be two possibilities:

1) The J-10 is way better than the blk 50 available today.
(It actually is in terms of price)

2) The PAF wants to gradually lessen dependance on american hardware so that they are not in a fix when at war.


I personally feel that the J-10 is not 'way' better than the F-16 blk 50.
As mentioned before its more of a deep interdiction A2G fighter-bomber.
Possibly its gives the PAF more penetrative depth into Indian airspace but with the apparent lack of composites/RAM coating its going to be hard to slip through Air defence system like Spyder(Israel) and possibly a dual use ABM
capability of PAC III/Arrow 2/S-300.
With the PL-12s and heavy loadouts it seems the J-10 is also inclined to be more favorable in BVR than WVR.
The T/W doesn't seem too phenomenal(I hear its better for the Super J-10 though) though the canards would offer greater manueverability.
Anyways I doubt it would match up to a TVC Su-30 in WVR.The Su-30 would probably get the I-see-you-first adv. right at the BVR outset though and this would help in positioning for possible WVR engagement.

MiG-29(A/B/C?/S) I don't know but I'm going to say even-steven at WVR and same at BVR(ZhukM on IAF MiG 29s).
Actually I think guys like waynos and kilcoo would have a better understanding of the J-10 manueverability(w/o TVC) since they've been studying for sometime now ..
Please share your latest assesments guys!

What about the Mirage 2000H/5 mk2? Totally blank on that but the J-10 would be more manueverable at WVR I'm guessing? Again kilcoo/Waynos plz share..
However I feel Mirage 2000 EW/ECM/jamming is much better so that will play in at WVR too.
Note there's ROCAF vs. PLAAF/PLANAF angle here as well ..

I'll pass judgement on the 126 MRCA v J-10 when they decide the damn a/c!!

And J-10 a kindly 3 generation and half (3.5th) one. I don't have source in english but I do have in Chinese (of course you may think it's from our side, can't convince you)

That's modest of you and you may have your reasons. I would put at at least 3.5 if not 4th. Can you say why you feel its 3-3.5?

And We do did air exercises for srue, otherwise we wouldn't release it (it seems Dec 30,2006 something, that's our way to do things) and wouldn't arm it as a huge base ...

Releasing it has nothing to do with air combat exercises..
You need to fly against other AFs to see how their flight combat tactics work in concert/or in opposition to yours. Thats the only way you'll be able to extract the best out of your a/c. I recommend exercises against the PAF.
They're highly trained, well informed in western air combat manuevering and tactics, and good skilled pilots as well. It will give the PLAAF loads of experience..
I think this must've already happened? Any idea sino? PLAAF/PAF exercises?

And we may see the result between J-10 and F16 from Pakistan later ...

Yep.. you bet.. I would love to get info on how the PAF fly the J-10 because I personally feel that the PAF would be able to get more out of this a/c that the chinese simply because they're an experienced AF. No offense to China but I feel PAF pilots are better on an average..

And just like the chinese got a chunk of knowledge about F-16s from the PAF , I think the US is going to try and get the most out of PAF FC-10s as well.
Its both ways this infomation transfer

[edit on 13-1-2007 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by AD5673

One nuclear missile can solve every problem.

Are you seriously suggesting that China would win the war between the U.S., and China? The U.S. has got missle defense, and will probably shoot down any Chinese nuclear missle. I dont even think that the Chinese made their own nuclear missles. Russia imported it to them. Also the U.S. has many allies, and Japan is one of them....

(no offense).

yea you THINK Japan is your ally...tell me when push comes to shove would you back a country that dropped 2 NUKES on you?? China and Japan have no love for each other either but Japan wouldnt risk suicide to back a nation that nuked its people

hahaha ......
A thread like this always go approach to arguement
Let's being friend. If you like J-10, you can go here rapidshare.com... to dowload huge photos of J-10.

Originally posted by Or_Die_Trying
yea you THINK Japan is your ally...tell me when push comes to shove would you back a country that dropped 2 NUKES on you?? China and Japan have no love for each other either but Japan wouldnt risk suicide to back a nation that nuked its people

Japan is a considerably soft target for the Chinese AND the North koreans.
If all hell breaks loose, the Chinese/N Koreans will in all inevitability take their first shots at Japan rather than CONUS.
Japan knows this, and has allied with the US for the very same reason.
A very important point here: The Japanese/S Koreans do not keep US forces on
their sovereign soil just because the US is big n tough etc.. Those post WWII days are gone.
These guys have the right to show US forces the boot.. and indeed some political factions are lobbying for the same.. But obviously the overall consensus is that the US forces should stay and that's why they're there as of today. They are there why?

1)As a gesture of reassurance that these forces would defend the corresponding guests from any hostile attack.
2) It gives the US a good rapid response capability rather than having to wait for CONUS forces to make their way across the atlantic and deploy logistically.
3) It serves as a MAJOR deterrent to any chinese/N Korean misadventures..

The recent deployment of topline fighters like the F-117(S Korea) and the F-22(Japan) reaffirms that these countries are in full agreement with such bold moves. This (F-117/F-22 deployment) is a perfect example of the above 3 points I've mentioned.

The nukes dropped in 1945 play no role in foreign policy decisions of Japan today. They KNOW it is in their best interests to have a powerful resident ally... for now. Of course all this can change with realignment of longterm strategic goals of all players involved, though it seems that this is only a distant possibility in the near future.

Originally posted by semperfoo
However, with all that said, I cant let the above rubbish go uncontested. China has over 700,000,000 improvised citizens . An estimated 300,000,000 drink unsafe and contaminated water.

May i ask where you got these figures from?. I am currently in china and have been traveling through southern china and have not seen these 700,000 "improvised citizens".


What levels are considered contaminated, since western metality has bottle water as the benchmark

Originally posted by Daedalus3
2) The PAF wants to gradually lessen dependance on american hardware so that they are not in a fix when at war.

That would only make sense if not for the fact that the PAF was about to put all their faith in the F-16 if not for the Earthquake which caused considerble fanicial strain on their economy.

That means your suggestion is inaccurate since the Pakistanis were already opting for American dependence beforehand, or are you suggesting they didn't consider that burden before the earthquake and just woke up one day and thought to buy a chinese plane?

Then there is another option which is, the J-10 was offered to co-inside with the chinese trip to Pakistan and the Pakistanis saw it as a better plane with a better deal

Pakistan is satisfying both sides and keeping it's options open. They will order a significant number of F-16's while also procuring the jointly developed JF-17 as well as the J-10. Pakistan recently order the largest export sale (ever) of AMRAAM and Sidewinder missiles (500 AIM-120C5's and 200 AIM-9M's). IMO these A/C deals have little to do with which plane is better; geopolitical, financial as well as supply issues are much more important.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
ATS is witnessing an influx of chinese on its fora like never before!!

They're trying to overwhelm the web by using the Tibetian invasion method!!

Just cram the place with Han!!
This is hilarious..
Haven't seen an arguementative chinese on ATS in a long time!!

Please DD3, stop the slander

Originally posted by chinawhite
That would only make sense if not for the fact that the PAF was about to put all their faith in the F-16 if not for the Earthquake which caused considerble fanicial strain on their economy.

They don't want to put all their faith in an untested airframe like the J-10 either.

That means your suggestion is inaccurate since the Pakistanis were already opting for American dependence beforehand, or are you suggesting they didn't consider that burden before the earthquake and just woke up one day and thought to buy a chinese plane?

Whether the earth quake shook their senses or not is unclear to me, but as of now they ARE buying the J-10 as measure to reduce dependance on American hardware(IMO). In all probability that plan was in incubation before the earth quake and maybe the earthquake brought it in play. Again the chinese may not have entirely committed to offering the J-10 before that
point in time as well.

Then there is another option which is, the J-10 was offered to co-inside with the chinese trip to Pakistan and the Pakistanis saw it as a better plane with a better deal

Indeed. For reasons like price, free flow of logistical supplies involved etc etc..
Whether it is superior to the F-16 in all roles is in question though, along with the question about what operational usage will the J-10's key advantages actually offer to the PAF w.r.t. its operational doctrines that are mainly concerned with India and partially with the new not so friendly Afghan govt.
As with what kilcoo et all said the J-10 doesn't seem to be configured for a very A2A role but a more fighter-bomber kind of thing.

Actually it would be interesting to see what the 'new' DRAAF would consist of.
Maybe this would give insight into the other reasons for the J-10 purchase.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Pakistan is satisfying both sides and keeping it's options open. They will order a significant number of F-16's while also procuring the jointly developed JF-17 as well as the J-10. Pakistan recently order the largest export sale (ever) of AMRAAM and Sidewinder missiles (500 AIM-120C5's and 200 AIM-9M's). IMO these A/C deals have little to do with which plane is better; geopolitical, financial as well as supply issues are much more important.

Yep.. they badly needed those.. esp with legacy IAF fighters like the MiG21 now getting R-77 capabilities and the PAF not having any BVR capability as of today.
They plan to get ~250 BVR capable fighters by 2015 I think.
That again will involve BVR operational training(pilots and everyone else involved).
Sooo many AMRAAMS for how many F-16s?
Maybe you guys(US) need to keep a track on where those AMRAAMs et all eventually end up.
Pakistan serves as a tech conduit for China. Hope the US can use them in a similar fashion vis-a-vis the J-10 etc. Would be shame if they wouldn't!

Whether the earth quake shook their senses or not is unclear to me, but as of now they ARE buying the J-10 as measure to reduce dependance on American hardware(IMO).

So your OWN suggestion about reduced dependence on America becomes fact while you are unclear about widely published information?. The Pakistanis wanting to break free of American dependence is a NOTION developed by conspiraciest without much FACT to back them up.

We have
- The fact that the Pakistanis ALREADY WERE WILLING TO FULLY DEPEND on American Before the earthquake.
- Publicly stated reasons why they cancelled further F-16s (which were financial)
- The fact they opted for more inexpensive F-16MLU instead of Blk50/52, which would make sense if the Pakistanis "swore by them"

You might have missed the very numerous articles indicating the Pakistanis postponing the initial F-16 because of the financial considerations?. Try to search them up and then they will become more clear

As with what kilcoo et all said the J-10 doesn't seem to be configured for a very A2A role but a more fighter-bomber kind of thing.

From the very beginning the chinese government saw the move from a single role aircraft to a multi-role aircraft, As of now, the J-10 is equally a mud-mover aswell as a fighter.

Originally posted by chinawhite
So your OWN suggestion about reduced dependence on America becomes fact while you are unclear about widely published information?. The Pakistanis wanting to break free of American dependence is a NOTION developed by conspiraciest without much FACT to back them up.

I never said that it was a fact.Nothing we state here based on our thoughts are facts; otherwise it would be a freakin news site..
Its a discussion board and we share opinions on various happenings..

We have

- The fact that the Pakistanis ALREADY WERE WILLING TO FULLY DEPEND on American Before the earthquake.

I don't understand your fixation with this earthquake.Who said the Pakis were fully dependant on the Americans before this earthquake? Do you have access to their doctrines? As I said earlier the plan to shift dependancy may have been on the table much before the earthquake or whatever.. It may have been put on hold either because of chinese hesistance for a foreign sale and/or Pakistani hesitance for a unproven fighter, or both..

- Publicly stated reasons why they cancelled further F-16s (which were financial)

Which are? Like you said I'm not as 'informed' as you are on this subject..
We can then discuss whether publicly stated reasons are indeed the real reasons..

- The fact they opted for more inexpensive F-16MLU instead of Blk50/52, which would make sense if the Pakistanis "swore by them"

I didn't get you.. are you saying that they should've opted for the blk 50 if they swore by it?
Incidently they DO swear by it, have since they got in the 80s..

You might have missed the very numerous articles indicating the Pakistanis postponing the initial F-16 because of the financial considerations?. Try to search them up and then they will become more clear

Are these one of the 'publicly' stated reasons I've supposedly overlooked?
FYI I noted that the price difference will be one of the reasons, on two occasions..

From the very beginning the chinese government saw the move from a single role aircraft to a multi-role aircraft, As of now, the J-10 is equally a mud-mover aswell as a fighter.

Your opinion.. everyone entitled to one..

Originally posted by Daedalus3
I never said that it was a fact.

I'll quote you on this,
"but as of now they ARE buying the J-10 as measure to reduce dependance on American hardware"

Who said the Pakis were fully dependant on the Americans before this earthquake?

I said the Pakistanis were putting all their faith in the F-16 with the 70 odd blk50/52 they order before the earthquake shifted their finacal priorities. This was the time BEFORE the earthquake and would have made their existing and present future force consist of a large percentage of American aircraft.

I did not mention doctrines but the arms deals on the table beforehand were more numerous and in turn more expensive, the Chinese leadership were in all probability in the process of making a offering to the Pakistanis but was beaten by the inital F-16 deal the Americans made

Which are?

I did state them twice for you, but if you actually could have missed them I will state them again. Financial reasons because of the earthquake. If they thought about getting rid of their dependence on America they sure did not show it when they inked the deal with the Americans for almost 70+ EXPENSIVE Block50/52, they instead brought a smaller number (stating finanical reasons) and opted for MLU F-16s instead while replacing those Block50/52 with J-10s with a similar ground attack capability

Two interesting articles
www.tribuneindia.com...
news.bbc.co.uk...

I didn't get you.. are you saying that they should've opted for the blk 50 if they swore by it? Incidently they DO swear by it

Then why did they choose to purchase a "un-tested" chinese fighter with supposedly "un-equal" capabilities to the Block50/52 as opposed to a fighter they "swore by"?. Because the J-10 "at-least" the price of a F-16MLU and mostly reported as only having its capabilities (which i doubt)

Your opinion.. everyone entitled to one..

Its not my opinion, its the opinion of Xinhua news agency (offical newspaper) and news being reported by CCTV 1/4/9 (i think youtube has copies of these reports)

Originally posted by chinawhite
I'll quote you on this,
"but as of now they ARE buying the J-10 as measure to reduce dependance on American hardware"

You convieniently left out the (IMO) suffix to that sentence.

I said the Pakistanis were putting all their faith in the F-16 with the 70 odd blk50/52 they order before the earthquake shifted their finacal priorities. This was the time BEFORE the earthquake and would have made their existing and present future force consist of a large percentage of American aircraft.

I did not mention doctrines but the arms deals on the table beforehand were more numerous and in turn more expensive, the Chinese leadership were in all probability in the process of making a offering to the Pakistanis but was beaten by the inital F-16 deal the Americans made

I did state them twice for you, but if you actually could have missed them I will state them again. Financial reasons because of the earthquake. If they thought about getting rid of their dependence on America they sure did not show it when they inked the deal with the Americans for almost 70+ EXPENSIVE Block50/52, they instead brought a smaller number (stating finanical reasons) and opted for MLU F-16s instead while replacing those Block50/52 with J-10s with a similar ground attack capability

Two interesting articles
www.tribuneindia.com...
news.bbc.co.uk...

Ok.. so you're saying it was more to do with price than anything else.
FYI, I never said price was NOT a factor. Infact I said(on a couple of occasions before) that price would have played some role too.
But I'm ALSO saying that the diversification of military hardware sources would also have played a vital role in shifting from the F-16 tot he J-10.
Otherwise I see no reason(besides price) for choosing the J-10 over the F-16 blk 50(with all that AMRAAM jazz), ESP since the PAF would IMO have preferred the F-16 to the J-10 (or an other a/c like the Mirage2000 etc..) because they feel comfortable with it. Just like the IAF and the Mirage 2000.
Now you understand what I meant and I understand what you meant.
drop it..

Then why did they choose to purchase a "un-tested" chinese fighter with supposedly "un-equal" capabilities to the Block50/52 as opposed to a fighter they "swore by"?. Because the J-10 "at-least" the price of a F-16MLU and mostly reported as only having its capabilities (which i doubt)

To bifurcate military hardware access.

Ok, IMHO even if they swore by the F-16(again they really do.. ask them), they(future planners) wisely decided against putting 'all eggs in one basket'.

Its not my opinion, its the opinion of Xinhua news agency (offical newspaper) and news being reported by CCTV 1/4/9 (i think youtube has copies of these reports)

Yea.. but most ppl incld me tend to think of it as more of a Fighter bomber than an a2a fighter.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
You convieniently left out the (IMO) suffix to that sentence.

?

What does that mean exactly?, i dont use much abbreviations so i dont know what that means

But I'm ALSO saying that the diversification of military hardware sources would also have played a vital role in shifting from the F-16 tot he J-10.

I know what you mean, but I am saying that if the earthquake did not happen. The pakistanis would have their first F-16s on their way and would not have opted for the J-10. That means that the Pakistanis did not consider diversifying their force before and wasn't a factor in the initial deal which would mean its not a factor in the deal after it which took into consideration the price and capability of the fighters. Since sources now state the J-10 has more potentional capability as a mud-mover compared to the F-16

IMO= In my opinion
IMHO= In my honest/humble opinion