Israeli - Palestinian conflict by the numbers (The numbers don't lie)

reply to post by queenannie38


No, you're right, this was not a justification at all.
I only felt the need to write that Israel is not preforming genocide, as other members tend to argue otherwise.

I'm trying not to comment defend, or disprove these numbers in my posts, as I feel it is important to honor those who have died.
I do have a lot to say on the matter, and it will be said, but not in a thread showing numbers of dead people..
These are actual dead people we're talking about, and I would not use this as a platform to debate.
Maybe this matter is closer to heart for me as an Israeli.

reply to post by A Conscience


Please allow me to educate you shortly.
Ilan pappe is a left wing extremist nut- He interprets things as he wants to see them, and then shows them as he wants them to be seen. I would advise you never to follow the opinions of an extremist on any side of the playing field.
The plan D was conceived in a time of war, war in which the residents of Palestine also took part.
The plan was to create a territorial continuity or Jewish settlements within the borders defined by the UN for Israel. Only the UN borders, this is important.
It is important that you understand that at the time of the war Jewish settlements were surrounded by Arab ones, and were constantly attacked. They were also used as bases of operation for Arab forced, and used to gather intel.

If you can not understand the meaning of this at a time of war, then maybe I should not be explaining this to you.
At any rate the history lessons at school have no changed due to Ilan Pappe, and his interpretation of plan D is not recognized by any nation, or organization as the history of Israel. Mostly because it is full of holes, half thruths and contradictions.

Why do you choose to bring it up here? I've opened a new thread to compare Israel to the Nazis if you want to discuss ethnic cleansing.

reply to post by Eliad


I just wanted to say that I think you have been posting in a most honorable way regarding your thoughts on the matter. As Christ said, love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you. It is sad to hear of the death of anyone, especially that of children.

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by queenannie38

 

No, you're right, this was not a justification at all.
I only felt the need to write that Israel is not preforming genocide, as other members tend to argue otherwise.

Eliad,

As a critic of Israeli policy let me be the first to say that I agree with you: it is not genocide. The Israeli government's policies are intended to execute ethnic cleansing, formally termed by the Israeli government "transfer". This notion was pioneered by Yosef Weitz but was popularized as a policy by David Ben-Gurion. The vision of "transfer" has guided Israeli policy for decades and has much to do with Israeli policy regarding the permissiveness extended to the abuse perpetrated by settlers, et alia.

I'm trying not to comment defend, or disprove these numbers in my posts, as I feel it is important to honor those who have died.
I do have a lot to say on the matter, and it will be said, but not in a thread showing numbers of dead people..
These are actual dead people we're talking about, and I would not use this as a platform to debate.
Maybe this matter is closer to heart for me as an Israeli.

I honor and respect that. I am glad to have an Israeli here in this conversation. It is not my place to apologize for the terrible words of other members, but please hear me when I say this: I and a legion of like-minded critics do not blame every Israeli for the actions of the Israeli government. I have no hatred in my heart for you and your brethren. If you support the actions of your government in regards to the Palestinian people, you and I have much to debate, but debate need not be tinged with hateful words.

Eliad - If you would be so kind, could you please inform the readers here as to the impact that the Haredi (ultra-Orthodox) is having on the internal politics in Israel, especially as it relates to the Palestinian conflict?

From what I have read, it appears that this segment of Jewish society in Israel is growing by leaps and bounds, and that many of the Haredi men are not enlisted in the military. I would assume these demographic changes will have strong implications for Israel's future.

What impact will these demographic changes have on the future defense of Israel against the likes of Hamas, etc? Thank you in advance.

reply to post by seeashrink

THIS CONFLICT began 63 years ago.
There was no conflict prior (Yahweh knows for how long) because the NATIVES weren't in conflict.
It was the imposition of a JEWISH state that caused the conflict which WE are involved with.
The Jews were chased out as a nation sometime around around 550 BC. THey existed as a nation for about 500 years but for much of this they were knocked back into the desert. It wasn't until the arrival of Zionists that it all went to hell.

www.mapsofwar.com...

This is a very nice visual display of the arena in this discussion. Who came and conquered and were summarily conquered in turn.

Originally posted by Prove_It_NOW
reply to post by airspoon

 

Now THIS thread is what a thread should look like. Thanks for the work you put into this. Numbers and data are pesky aren't they? Can't spin those quite as easily.

EPIC thread shall be S&F'd.

Infact, numbers and data are probably the easiest 'facts' to manipulate and yet so many believe they are the be all and end all of everything.....

Vote rigging, hello?



[edit on 11-6-2010 by Skellon]

reply to post by largo


Ahhh, my old friend Largo. Palistine is the Philistines of the Old Testament. Israel, and most the land around it, is the Promised Land promised to Abraham. The twelve tribes of Israel (Jacob), the Jews, have faught with the Philistines (Palistine) for thousands of years over this land. Don't blame me...blame history.

It is refreshing to see occasional sensible points being raised here and heartening to see someone from Israel making some very balanced discussion points. Putting religion and politics to one side, there have been war crimes perpetrated by both Israel and Palestine. Atrocities on both sides which are unforgivable, but the fact remains that Israel has kept an entire nation under siege and this is probably more to do with destroying the Palestinian economy over self-defence.

My point here is simple. Put yourself in a Palestinian shoe for a moment and imagine your life stripped of basic human rights. Your land is taken from you and your national identity is slowly eroding. This kind of life is a breeding ground for hate. You would feel real anger and I for one can totally understand why rockets get fired.

reply to post by JohnnyElohim


No, my friend, this is not ethnic cleansing as well.
The concept of transfer has been supported only by the most extremists right wing politicians and is not currently supported by anyone as an idea of ideal.
Even the reports of David Ben Gurion's transfer ideas were either taken out of context, or are simply not true, as they are reported to have been said in a time of war, a war in which borders have been determined on maps but on the ground it still did not have any meaning.
Even so, the idea of transfer is that they'd be transfered somewhere else, is it not? I don't think that constitutes as ethnic cleansing..

And putting that aside you should realize that there are many Israeli Arabs who still live in Israel, my girlfriend is one of them, and had we been up to ethnic cleansing they would not have been allowed to lived in Israel, would they?

Again, the claims of ethnic cleansing really are baseless, in the Gaza strip there are 1.5 million people, killing 7000 of them in 10 years is hardly the best method to get rid of them. Looking at the Palestinian people as a whole the west bank, as opposed to terrorist led Gaza, has relative peace with Israel, it is flourishing, it is turning more moderate and modern every day.
This is all due to the fact that once Arafat died, the people who replaced him were not terrorists. They agreed to talk with Israel. Now they get millions of dollars every month just so they would not collapse.

If there's one thing the Israeli government is guilty of is collective punishment, because the people that the state of Israel wants to get rid of are not the civilians of Gaza, but the terrorists of the hamas, yet Gaza as a whole gets punished.
But never ethnic cleansing. If you had been here one day you would have understood. You know, even the most right wing people I know, I've never heard anyone talk about transfer.

I am not offended by the words of some of the members of this forum.
But I am shocked at the amount of disinformation, the amount of poorly informed people, the lack of willingness people show at changing their views when faced with facts. The disregard to facts.
And this myth of the Israeli PR! Where the hell did that come from?? Here in Israel we think that we have the worst PR ever, but I thought that was known all over the world.
The Israeli PR and bias myth seems to have two goals in my opinion- One is to make one think that he's more radical, as if the whole world is for Israel then you seem to be a lone voice for the people. Makes people feel cool.. Makes you feel like the voice of peace.
Two it makes the Palestinians seem more weak, and Israel more strong, and perpetuates the image of the "eternal Jew" that controls the media, etc.

It is designed to turn more people against Israel.

One other thing that I've noticed-
It seems that being anti Israeli recently has become a "cool" thing to do.
I see fret boys on the news standing in demonstrations unable to answer simple questions on the subjects, yet are full of passion and hate.
Their words and answers seem to be fed from someone else, but they show that they are incapable of thinking.
When asked a question they will revert to a pre prepared general speech on Israel, but when faced with facts and difficult questions they either can't answer, or they turn back to the same speech.
I see this on the forum.

With respect,
And thank you for your comment,
Eliad.

[edit on 11-6-2010 by Eliad]

blaming history
blaming god
blaming politics
blaming math
blaming spin
blaming the other guy
blaming the victim

BLAME IT ON THE RAIN

responsibility for our actions lies with ourselves
Are we not men?

"comfort me with the thought that pulled the trigger"
Neil Young-Powderfinger

[edit on 11-6-2010 by Danbones]

[edit on 11-6-2010 by Danbones]

reply to post by Mykahel


Thank you. I was beginning to think there is no room for respect and honor in this forum.
The last few posts in this thread have changed my mind a bit.

All I can say is .

I would post this thread on Facebook but 99% of my sheeplist.. erm I mean friendlist would just dismiss the thread immediately because it's on a conspiracy site.

Sad but true. I posted loads of info on Facebook about White Phospherous being used by Israel last year and hardly anyone battered an eyelid, those that did told me I was posting disturbing info and should take it down because it was upsetting!

This was about the point where I abandoned all hope of waking anyone up, who hadn't taken the initiative to research it themselves.

I despair...

Originally posted by Danbones
blaming history
blaming god
blaming politics
blaming math
blaming spin
blaming the other guy
blaming the victim

BLAME IT ON THE RAIN

responsibility for our actions lies with ourselves
Are we not men?

"comfort me with the thought that pulled the trigger"
Neil Young-Powderfinger

[edit on 11-6-2010 by Danbones]

[edit on 11-6-2010 by Danbones]

Yeah, you're so right, those Palestinians should never have left their homes, they should have stayed and fought like the Israelis did with their homes that were overrun by Arab armies.
Now they're blaming everyone else for their mistake!

You are so right.

(See what I did there?)

Best regards,
Eliad.

reply to post by Wide-Eyes


The white phosphor is not used to harm people!
It isn't even military grade phosphor! It's not a strong acid like the ones they use to melt people! It's still unhealthy, that true, but it's not as lethal and can't be as lethal.

The phosphor is used to create a cover for a tank, when fired upon with anti tank rockets, or targeted by one.
The result is a white cloud forming in front of the tank.
The cloud is formed so close to the tank that even the slightest wind can blow it towards the tank, and I've also seen it been used while driving forward.
Needless to say if it was lethal it would be the most unsafe device to put on a tank, as the cloud is formed right infront of it.
I've heard from a friend that once shot it and ran through it by mistake that it doesn't even sting (but he was driving fast and didn't breath it.
Non the less, real phosphor melts the skin. This does not.

Get your facts straight!

reply to post by Eliad


Well, if what you say is true, then I have obviously been a victim of misinformation. Thanks for clearing that up.

www.hrw.org...

www.timesonline.co.uk...

www.msnbc.msn.com...

www.haaretz.com...

I could go on...

I couldn't help but notice that you only joined ATS a couple of days ago.

What exactly inspired you to join ATS, Eliad?


[edit on 11-6-2010 by Wide-Eyes]

reply to post by CookieMonster09


Wow, that is a long long story.
I can only say that their political power has gone down significantly in recent years.
As of late I haven't heard of them affecting anything..
Now that you mentioned it, I don't know what happened to them, I do remember as a child that they had a very powerful party that everyone had to suck up to, but that is no longer the case.
Sorry, I'm not big on politics..

reply to post by LarryLove


First of all, thank you.

You've got some good points there.
But in the end it is all about reaching an agreement. Both the Israeli, the hamas, and the Fatah know that.

In the past year or so it seems like the Palestinian people have been divided in half- The successful, peaceful, moderate west bank, led by the Fatah, and the Gaza strip, led by hamas.
Why do you think there's such a difference between the two?
It wasn't until Arafat (who was a known terrorist) died that something began to change in the west bank. In six years after the death of Arafat we have managed to do what 60 years of talks could not do.

So, yeah, I too can understand why there's hate. I also happen to think that the only way we'll ever solve this is by killing that hate. It'll happen one day.
In the mean time we are facing against a government who openly calls for our destruction.
Ask yourself why there is no "siege" against the west bank.

With respect,
Eliad.

[edit on 11-6-2010 by Eliad]

reply to post by Eliad


Sorry to bang the same old drum, Eliad but is this video propoganda?

www.hrw.org...

I am asking sincerely because those bombs don't look like tank cover to me.

Originally posted by Team Locke
I think I have the solution to the whole problem. Get the Hamas terrorist to quit launching rockets into Israel. Leave them alone. Then if Israeal attacks anyone you can cry foul. Until then you statistics don't mean much unless you also provide the provoking factors which caused the end results.

Just a suggestion.

WOOT!

Page 6 baby! PAGE 6!!!

reply to post by Wide-Eyes



Ah, well first I'd like to apologize for my rash response, we clearly are talking about different things. Same phosphor I guess, but different uses.
Also I'd like to thank you for keeping your response civil, something I can't say for myself perhaps.

Second I wasn't in Israel during the cast lead operation, and I had no idea this had happened.
After looking into it I can see that all the papers reported it, and it was a big deal in Israel.
The army has been investigating it, I don't know the results.
I also think that this is a terrible act, and I'm not really sure what's the point of it. Look, there are rogue elements in the IDF, a soldier can decide to do something bad. Even evil. They are only human. But regardless of what one does on the field you can not hold one man's actions (or a few) as the actions of an entire army, an entire people, or an entire government.
Firing white phosphor into areas with no soldiers in them would make no sense for the IDF to do, and I'm sure this was not an order given by higher ups in command. If it was it was done in poor judgment.
Long story short I also condemn these actions, and am shocked that anyone would do such a thing.
Do not think that something like this can go unnoticed or unpunished in the Israeli army.
I would like to give you an example- A brother of a good friend of mine was part of the engineering core. He was in charge of cutting off a road. He was asked to do that with minimal damage to the rest or the road. Instead of running across it and cutting it off he decided the most effective way would be to go over it from one side to another. He was sentenced and imprisoned for that.

As for why I joined:
The turkish press published some photos of the injured commandos, but their faces were blurred out in our papers and I couldn't see how badly they were injured, so I went online and ran a google search to try and bind the unblurred photos, if there were any. I was interested in seeing if they really were badly attacked. My belief was that they were, but I didn't mind challenging it, and wanted to at least see it for my own eyes.
The first or second result led me to a topic on this forum.. I started reading and found a lot of errors in many of the responses, many misconceptions and rumors that are being spread as fact with no real evidence.
I thought I could turn people around if I could just show them what really happened. I later found out that it isn't that easy.
I decided to join in, and see if I can clear some things up.
And be cleared up on others.

With respect,
Eliad.

[edit on 11-6-2010 by Eliad]