Two Iranian ships to sail to Gaza

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
We'll know in a day or so if the Red Crescent will ask the IRGC if they can provide an escort for protection.. I would assume they would need one going through the waters by Somalia..

Certainly be an interesting week if the aid is planned to be off loaded by the weekend..

Well there is certainly already a precedent for it. Relief operations in Haiti for example. Many UN missions in Africa as another. The idea of escorting humanitarian aid with military personnel certainly isn't a new one. So I don't think it's entirely confrontational. It really depends on what the Israeli's do.

Clinton said she fully expected Iran to "pull some stunt" in the coming days to try to divert pressure for sanctions, but predicted this would fail.

"I think we'll see something coming up in the next 24 to 48 hours," Clinton told reporters aboard her plane before departing. "I don't think anybody should be surprised if they try to divert attention once again from the unity within the Security Council ... but we have the votes," she said.

Reuters

Perhaps another matter that should be taken into consideration along with this discussion.

reply to post by belial259


I see nothing wrong with the escort duties, especially through those waters.. however, there is a bigger game being played here.. as you pointed out, the sanctions fall into part of it., the global economic woes another.

And some peoples reaction to Iranian warships sitting in international waters in the Med might make some people very nervous.. I'm thinking of those on the ground in the region.. It would only take one nervous person, and an itchy finger to ignite a larger fire...

Then we have to contend with what aid Egypt and Israel will allow through the Rafah crossing.. going to be tense...

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
It would only take one nervous person, and an itchy finger to ignite a larger fire...

I just wonder what capacity the Israeli's would even have to respond at sea to any issue. Inevitably if they wanted to do that their only real option is to use air power. They do not have many naval assets in comparison to the Iranian navy, and their front-line warships are only corvette class.

I can't see a small power like Israel wanting to engage in conflict in the only area it does not have supremacy.

Originally posted by ickylevel

Originally posted by TheBorg
It needs to be about how do we fix this nonsense, and keep it from happening again?

Destroy Israel. Or change its leaders. I'm sorry but there are no softs answers.

Remove Palestine, Hamas out of Gaza and let the Isaelis' keep that portion of land.

Originally posted by belial259

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
It would only take one nervous person, and an itchy finger to ignite a larger fire...

I just wonder what capacity the Israeli's would even have to respond at sea to any issue. Inevitably if they wanted to do that their only real option is to use air power. They do not have many naval assets in comparison to the Iranian navy, and their front-line warships are only corvette class.

I can't see a small power like Israel wanting to engage in conflict in the only area it does not have supremacy.

For Iran to manage it's fleet effectivly I would assume it would only be able to send a couple of smaller vessels to the Med in support of the 2 cargo vessels and 1 hospital ship..

Still it would enough to create a huge amount of tension across the region.

Which will only escalate tension if the Red Crescent ships have brought in prescibed goods like cement... will Egypt refuse to off load such a cargo?

I can tensions raising even further when they attempt to get the cargo through the Rafah crossing into Gaza.

The you have side issues like will Egypt allow an Iranian Naval hospital ship to dock and take on patients? or will she have to wait in international waters for patients?

reply to post by thoughtsfull

For Iran to manage it's fleet effectivly I would assume it would only be able to send a couple of smaller vessels to the Med in support of the 2 cargo vessels and 1 hospital ship..

Or indeed have the IRG on the ships. Now that might be contentious, and would that make them military vessels?

Although there may be precedents set for the escort of aid, I still think that Israel will see this as an act of war if they encroach in any way on what Israel considers to be it's waters..

[edit on 7/6/2010 by PuterMan]

Originally posted by PuterMan
reply to post by thoughtsfull

 

For Iran to manage it's fleet effectivly I would assume it would only be able to send a couple of smaller vessels to the Med in support of the 2 cargo vessels and 1 hospital ship..

Or indeed have the IRG on the ships. Now that might be contentious, and would that make them military vessels?

Although there may be precedents set for the escort of aid, I still think that Israel will see this as an act of war if they encroach in any way on what Israel considers to be it's waters..

[edit on 7/6/2010 by PuterMan]

I quite agree, and the Somali waters are enough IMHO to warrant an escort.. especialy given that a hospital ship is in tow.. but I'm not sure how close those ships could be to Israeli waters for Israel to get testy.. I would assume they'll off load at Port Said (about 40 miles from Rafah)

It's gonna be a close thing, there are lots that could go wrong, from Egypt not allowing the cargo to unloaded, to the cargo not getting through the Rafah crossing... this is still IMHO a method a breaking the blockaid, but at the Rafah crossing.. Which ever way it goes it certainly puts the spotlight on Egypt and the Rafah crossing.

Alex Jones
on his sunday night show said that:
the bilderbuggers have just voted for war with IRAN

reply to post by thoughtsfull


The minute those goods cross over the crossing you can bet that Israel will strafe them. They will be in occupied territory controlled by the Israelis, and be a convoy bringing in 'prohibited' goods.

Also bear in mind that to get across the border they are going to have to deal with Israel anyway, so I don't think there is any way this aid will arrive at it's intended destination.

Any attempt by the Iranians or the Egyptians to 'protect' the goods will in the eyes of the Israeli military be an act of war.

reply to post by Danbones


Well that is what a good portion of this whole farce has been in aid of. It has everything to do with creating a war with Iran that is not started by the USA, but which they can then join.

[edit on 7/6/2010 by PuterMan]

reply to post by Mobius1974


Sorry, but your "facts" are unsupportable. How about:

The blockade is illegal (in direct contravention of Article 33 of the Geneva Convention). Fact!

Boarding a vessel in international waters in support of an illegal blockade is illegal. Fact!

The hospital ship is a nice touch, IMHO. It would seem that the inventors of chess are about to play the queens' gambit. This will allow the Israeli thugs a golden opportunity to prove to the world at large that they can "out-Nazi" Hitler (who never ordered an attack on a hospital ship).

Personally, I'm getting a big bowl of popcorn - this is going to be quite a show!

[edit on 7-6-2010 by Tholidor]

[edit on 7-6-2010 by Tholidor]

reply to post by PuterMan


Exactly, the goods are simply not going to get the people that need them... but then again none of this has been about actually getting the aid through, but breaking the blockaid.

But as far as chess moves go, getting a few Iranian ships into the med is certainly a counter move to the Dolphin subs off the Iranian coast.

Alongside talks about sanctions on Iran and talks in the IAEA about Israels nukes.. am really wondering how far away a real showdown really is.

Originally posted by Dynamitrios
No way the Israelis will attcak or board a hospitalship or a red crescent (red cross of islamic countries) convoy.

That would be an even bigger atrocity than boarding the turkish ship.

Its the international red cross (crescent) organization, no need attacking them

S&F to OP !
Dynamitros I agree with a part of your post But..... Do you really think they wouldn't try it? They actually would love the conflict with Iran they been conspiring that for quite a while and well known , they have been asking US to get in on Iran , just perfect for them to start a war that would degenerate very possibly into a World War ! Hopefully more people will protest , this has to be the first time i see so much pressure put on many Governments at the same time and you can tell some of them are not sure what to do any more !

If Iran has learned anything from Israel and the good old USA then this would be a perfect opportunity for a false flag operation.

Hospital ship is torpedoed in international waters..who gets the blame?

Personally, I think we can all play a positive part in these insane dramas in so much that Israel keeps a huge loosely affiliated yet semi-official internet presence to both shape and monitor public opinion.

While most of their efforts are aimed at trying to shape public opinion through the not always skillful use of propaganda, it is at the same time, taking the temperature of the people and their attitudes it’s operatives are trying to shape the opinion of.

Standing up to the propaganda and denouncing it and the state that is producing and promoting is an important part of this equation in my humble opinion. Ultimately Israel is fighting a loosing battle because of the sheer math involved.

So it does have to pick its battles wisely, knowing that to overcome troublesome math (a combination of populace states with large armies arrayed against it all at one time) it then needs international support.

Yes it can count on the politicians on the hook in the west to come through in the early stages or fazes but if the governments rendering aide don’t really have support of the people in aiding Israel, then Israel is left at a real disadvantage in a War of Attrition.

States like Iran and Turkey to a lesser extent have been in long bloody wars of attrition, and their populations and mindsets are conditioned to accept those.

Half the battle here is helping Israel understand that while most of us do support in one fashion or another, the existence of an Israeli State that the majority of us, want it to abide by the same International Laws and Customs that the rest of the nations are bound too.

Israel is not a signatory to most of the important agreements like the International Atomic Energy Agency and has refused to implement numerous Security Council resolutions and is not a full party to the Geneva Conventions either.

It constantly evokes alleged violations or potential violations by other states of these agreements as cause for concern and potential military aggression by Israel, but it is not bound by the same rules itself.

So it really boils down to, do the rest of the people of the world, want to accept a state that acts outside of International Law, while demanding every other nation operate within International Law to Israel’s satisfaction.

I believe Israel has a right to exist, within pre-1967 borders, but I don’t believe it has the right to exist on the terms and in the ways it has been existing, and wants to continue to exist.

The Law has to apply to all parties evenly, and be applied evenly, or it ceases becoming the law, and an instrument of justice, and instead becomes an instrument of oppression and terrorism, when one side is bound by it and punishable under it, and the other is not.

People of the world need to let Israel know how they really feel and the best place to do that is right here on the Internet, because Israel is all over the Internet including here on ATS.

The Gaza Blockade is illegal, and Israel needs to get back to the bargaining table and start working on a real fair agreement for peace all parties are bound by in the future that has enforcement mechanisms in it, and real enforcement mechanisms not held hostage by vetos in the UN Security Council that render that enforcement mute.

From: en.wikipedia.org...


A hospital ship is a ship designated for primary function as a medical treatment facility or hospital; most are operated by the military forces or navies of various countries around the world, as they are intended to be used in or near war zones. Firing on a hospital ship is a war crime.

Let's see if Israel will dare to fire on it...

Originally posted by Danbones
Alex Jones
on his sunday night show said that:
the bilderbuggers have just voted for war with IRAN

Who cares what they think, they lost. They are in mainstream press now so they are exposed.

Israel _itself_ would never start a war in which they could loose a substantial amount of millitary recources. They are not stupid.

[edit on 7-6-2010 by kybertech]

Originally posted by Tholidor
The hospital ship is a nice touch, IMHO. It would seem that the inventors of chess are about to play the queens' gambit.

Well it's also nessesary. Much of the humanitarian aid and funding being blocked to HAMAS is concrete and other supplies they need for reconstruction. From what I've heard the Hospital in Gaza is damaged and ill equipped. I'm unaware of what level of technology they have or are able to afford for treatment.

I guess things like x-rays and MRI's wouldn't be allowed.

reply to post by thoughtsfull


I think you can count on Egypt doing whatever they think the International Community want's it to do, as shown in their latest actions regarding this issue.

You see, Egypt, (the great civilization of old who have become the opposite in modern years classed by many as nearly third worldly) have changed a lot in the past few years. Tourism is one of the most important (and booming and fast growing) things to Egypt right now as that's where the major money is coming from and all the major development over there at the moment is geared towards this, just visit Alexandra, Sharm El Sheik or other similar spots to see this.

Forgetting their recent actions in this case, look a little further back to the swine flu and how they reacted, they seriously want to look good in the eyes of the world right now and do not want to look like an undesirable place to go on holiday.

Now, going by their previous actions they are obviously of the opinion that worldwide opinion is against Israel right now and rightly so IMHO. Of course all this can change with politics but I surely see Egypt is basically looking out for themselves at the moment with no interest in conflict with other countries and simply wanting to just get on with their own country

Originally posted by kybertech

Originally posted by Danbones
Alex Jones
on his sunday night show said that:
the bilderbuggers have just voted for war with IRAN

Who cares what they think, they lost. They are in mainstream press now so they are exposed.

Israel _itself_ would never start a war in which they could loose a substantial amount of millitary recources. They are not stupid.

[edit on 7-6-2010 by kybertech]

The 3rd reich started a war with USSR.

reply to post by lifttheveil

I think you can count on Egypt doing whatever they think the International Community want's it to do, as shown in their latest actions regarding this issue.

The question is however will they do so much that they put the $1.7bn aid package they get from the US in jeopardy?

Agreed it is dropping, and someone will come up with $450,000,000 reported by the Arab papers, but I understand this is the direct aid bit and the rest is 'packaged'

It pales into insignificance when compared to the overall $15bn that Israel gets, but never the less are they prepared to lose it?