American flag burned...in England

It's sad to see that people are emotional and sentimental beings.

False sentiment that is. Hooligans are instruments of people with power. Football clubs are an easy way for these people to make profits it allows them to have close ties with local governments and influence the betting industry. It's almost like looking at children believing in Santa.
How can a grown man have so much heart for a company (club) that buys and sells assets (players) to gain profit. It has nothing to do with the average Joe that slaves his ass off for the same people that own the clubs he loves and hates. But he only sees his home or neighborhood being represented internationally giving him a sense of pride.

What is easier to select your tools from a cesspool of a variety of people willing to engage in violence coming from all walks of live. Football unites these individuals and as a wolf pack an invisible leader can easily maneuver them to fit their evil schemes. Hooligans are often hardcore criminals that have a long history of violence and senseless crimes. How many insurance corporations and law enforcement agencies are benefiting from their trails of destruction ?

Once an acquaintance of .mine whom was selected to play the UEFA final told me three days before the match that he knew the outcome.

When later on I seen the football scandals in Italy with people mysteriously falling out of windows I drew my conclusions.
When later I met people that bribed referees on a mass scale who told me that the same refs they were paying ten years ago were now working for UEFA I drew again my conclusions.

When you take a step back and look at football and all the networks that derive from it you have to just remember history and see it for what it is.

Football is mostly an illusion... panem et circenses

Originally posted by Freq Of Nature
I am from the UK and despise football!

Me too. In the past, on more than one occasion, I've been asked in all earnest as to whether I was gay; such was the cognitive dissonance when presented with a man who doesn't like football but lives close to Manchester, home of two of the biggest clubs in the country.

As far as the flag goes, you can't let the actions of one stupid individual stunt your views on the country in a whole!

There's a couple of factors on here, one has been touched on already. Basically, Americans, with their fairly unique brand of patriotism (doesn't exist anywhere else in the western world) invest a lot into the symbolism of their flag - far more than most British can ever really hope to understand as our patriotism gets articulated through other means.

The other side of the metaphorical coin though is that it appears that many Americans assume how they feel about the flag, or rather that level of investiture that goes into the flag, will appear somewhere else in our culture. I'm fairly positive that this is the root of the very peculiar and anachronistic view of the British monarchy; that must hold the Royals with some kind of special reverence in the same way that so many Americans hold the flag with special reverence. It's a nonsense of course as most British really don't care one way or the other for the present Royal family, who are, at best, tourist magnets.

However, patriotism, like guns, is open to a massive psychological divide that separates our countries far more than an ocean ever could.

Everyone who originally left Britain for America burnt the British flag - not literally, but spiritually.

So, no difference and no problem.

Originally posted by Merriman Weir
. I'm fairly positive that this is the root of the very peculiar and anachronistic view of the British monarchy; that must hold the Royals with some kind of special reverence in the same way that so many Americans hold the flag with special reverence. It's a nonsense of course as most British really don't care one way or the other for the present Royal family, who are, at best, tourist magnets.

Well, they an important constitutional tool as well, plus a figure head and a tie that binds our nation together and to our history.

Touching on what you said though, if someone burnt the Union Flag or St Georges cross, I'd have no problem. But if they burnt a pic of Her Maj or otherwise tried to sully her good nature, I'd be a most unhappy Englishman.

Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by Merriman Weir
. I'm fairly positive that this is the root of the very peculiar and anachronistic view of the British monarchy; that must hold the Royals with some kind of special reverence in the same way that so many Americans hold the flag with special reverence. It's a nonsense of course as most British really don't care one way or the other for the present Royal family, who are, at best, tourist magnets.

Well, they an important constitutional tool as well, plus a figure head and a tie that binds our nation together and to our history.

Constitutional paper tigers though. Figure head, I'm fairly sure more people now thing of Liz as being the woman who 'does the stamps' than as a genuine figure head now. With each passing year, the Royals become less important other than for tourism purposes.

Touching on what you said though, if someone burnt the Union Flag or St Georges cross, I'd have no problem. But if they burnt a pic of Her Maj or otherwise tried to sully her good nature, I'd be a most unhappy Englishman.

But you must concede that you're in a minority though? Let's face it, Stu, you do come across as the kind of chap that would have a picture of the Queen on mantle piece at home and you and I know that's hardly typical, despite my being of an age where I remember the national anthem being regularlyplayed just before 'close down' on television.

Don't get me wrong, despite being a dyed-in-the-wool socialist, I'm not particularly anti-monarchy as I acknowledge they're basically an irrelevance and little more than faces to put on cups and plates for tourists. I don't begrudge the 60-something pence a year to give them a roof over their head, even now during the present economic climate.

Originally posted by Merriman Weir
Constitutional paper tigers though. Figure head, I'm fairly sure more people now thing of Liz as being the woman who 'does the stamps' than as a genuine figure head now. With each passing year, the Royals become less important other than for tourism purposes.

People still have an fondness for them, not a devotion like you see in Thailand but every year when asked in polls, a vast majority wish to keep them in place because it is part of our culture.

Ironically, Liz could have made the Monrachy far more relevant if she was not so "unpolitical", which is the thing that has set her reign apart from others.. Her father and Grandfather had no compunctions with telling the sitting PM when he could get off!

Just you wait though, I think Charles is going to be a bit more vocal about matters than his mother ever was, although I;d rather the crown go straight to William than his father.

Originally posted by Merriman Weir
But you must concede that you're in a minority though? Let's face it, Stu, you do come across as the kind of chap that would have a picture of the Queen on mantle piece at home and you and I know that's hardly typical, despite my being of an age where I remember the national anthem being regularlyplayed just before 'close down' on television.

Not so sure about the "minority" part. A good 3/4's of the population seem to be in support of the Monarchy and when Brown was in power, the BBC Have Your Say pages were litterally full of post after post calling for the Queen to excercise her power and get shot of the grubby little cretin.

Originally posted by Merriman Weir
Don't get me wrong, despite being a dyed-in-the-wool socialist, I'm not particularly anti-monarchy as I acknowledge they're basically an irrelevance and little more than faces to put on cups and plates for tourists. I don't begrudge the 60-something pence a year to give them a roof over their head, even now during the present economic climate.

They are more than just "faces on cups", although granted their powers are rarely used. They are a link to our past and part of our culture. It goes deeper than selling images of them to tourists.

It might also shock you that I am not old enough to remember the national anthem at close down, although I have heard myths about such a thing in the past

Only a baby me

Hicks and Gillett have loaded almost £400 million of unsustainable debt on one of the world's most famous football clubs.

That debt requires £100,000 per day in interest payments (enough to pay the weekly wages of seven world class players each week). Independent assessments have determined that LFC now has concerns in maintaining its financial integrity, and might potentially go under in the near future.

All because these two carpetbaggers leveraged our club, treating the supporters like consumers of weetabix.

They have lied from day one and are near to ruining a football institution. Currently asking $800 million for a club which is barely worth £350 million.



These people are not hooligans. They are just very peeved and desperate watching a large part of the lives being destroyed by a pair of asshats. Campaigns against these pair of knobs have been ongoing for over a year.

It really is just aimed at two deceptive assholes who happen to be yanks. I hear Mr Hicks has also come close to ruining the Texas Rangers.



If it brings attention to the issue, then I think it was probably worth it.

[edit on 5-6-2010 by melatonin]

About bloody time, i applaud these people.

America is doing such horrendous things around this globe about time you english understood.

As an Englishman, Brit, living in the Netherlands, I can assure you that if anybody would burn either the British or Englis flag, I would kicked the **** out of them. Sounds a bit over the top, but that's just the feeling I get when thinking about it. Meaning I might just rise above the whole possible situation.

But in this case, I think you Yanks are going a bit over the top. It's the same as when a player from Ajax, called Andy van der Meyde, had e certain way to celebrate his goal, by making a crossbow/gun type position, the American media claimed he was doing this to show support for the American invasion of Iraq. (It's been that long since van der Meyde played good football, hard to imagine).

The burning of a flag is a stupid thing to do really, and makes no difference to the world at all. And this situation just reminds me of what a Liverpool fan did to a Stevie Gerrard shirt years ago which showed no respect. You would think that stupidity runs riot through the minds of Liverpool fans.

But I do understand the anger of the fans, as a Manchester United fan which also has Yanks as owners and increasing the debt worse than Liverpool, and wishing that these Yanks would just to p*ss off. But this is not a way to go about it.

Originally posted by markstealth
I also am a UK Liverpool FC supporter and am upset as any that the Debt model experiment has not worked, or has been caught wrongfooted by economic trends.

...

But I bet that flag burning guy would be greatly upset if he saw the Union Jack or the English flag being burned. (Unless he is Irish as many scousers are).

Nice to see another LFC supporter here, but I'm not sure you get the scouse identity.



Don't think they'd give a crap. Think they'd need to burn a flag of a liverbird, but I'm sure scousers would just laugh. I know what would have an effect...

Originally posted by EGO84
The burning of a flag is a stupid thing to do really, and makes no difference to the world at all. And this situation just reminds me of what a Liverpool fan did to a Stevie Gerrard shirt years ago which showed no respect. You would think that stupidity runs riot through the minds of Liverpool fans.

Red mancs tried to burn an american flag a few years back - they invaded the pitch during a reserve game.

However, they hadn't quite reached the capacity of reliable fire-making, lol.

[edit on 5-6-2010 by melatonin]

Originally posted by UberL33t
reply to post by Lurch

 

burning of the American flag in such a protest is completely unacceptable

I concur. I presume this soccer hooligan probably meant this brainless act as protest to the American owners. Little does he know his actions are going to hit a major chord with the U.S. imo (especially if this goes viral)...Dummy!

I agree football is a pathetic reason for directed hatred, i can think of better reasons for burning the american flag.

reply to post by stumason


Dear stumason

I new it would get someone hating me.

I am sure you would never mix with a group like this and burn a flag of any colours.

I have a good friend and he also loves football, which I admit is a very good game and it is not the game I object too, it is fanaticism just as displayed in this thread. That goes for all sports that are taken to more than a game as is football.

I lived in Liverpool from zero till about 47 years old so I unfortunately know very well what these people are like as I unfortunately grew up with them.

When I had a company in Liverpool I took on a guy for a particular job who at that time was out of work. He knew that he had to work 5 ½ days a week Monday through till Saturday lunch time. This was to fit in with the rest of the staff.

This guy started work on the Monday morning through till the Friday night.

We never saw him again as he finally realized that he would not get to go to the match.

I rest my case.

I do not think I ever had a really pronounced Liverpool accent but over the years certainly most of it has gone.

This thread makes me sad. I've been finding it hard to believe that actual humans are replying to this.



Today I took a few moments to think about the poor children who were slaughtered in the Dunblane massacre.......




..... I don't think I'll bother arguing over football or flags today.

Originally posted by noface
This thread makes me sad. I've been finding it hard to believe that actual humans are replying to this.

Today I took a few moments to think about the poor children who were slaughtered in the Dunblane massacre.......

..... I don't think I'll bother arguing over football or flags today.

I'm sorry, but was your post filmed in Surreal-Vision? What's Dunblane got to do with this? It's not the anniversary of Dunblane or anything. The Dunblane Massacre wasn't connected to football or flags. How is Dunblane relevant to this?

Christ, what am I doing replying to this when I could be thinking about the Somme, Passchendaele, the Clifford's Tower massacre of York, the Harrying of the North, Fred and Rose West's victims, Darfur, the deaths of 2,000,000 Cambodians under Pol Pot and every other appalling loss of life that's ever occurred.

Sorry but I cannot understand anyone getting hot under the collar about this.

Both our countries have men dying in Afghanistan, are ruled by bankers who we didn't elect in our so called democracies etc.
We have far more in common than not.

We should be brothers in arms, fighting the fight...not literally.. against the powers who be, who are bent on taking our freedoms away.

Us Brits don't understand the Americans and their flag, maybe it is a shame that we don't have the same respect for our own.
One idiot should not have the power to cause so much time and energy when their are far more important things.

If he or one of his pals are an ABTS member his ego must be sky high, when in fact he is not worth air space.

Sorry but I cannot understand anyone getting hot under the collar about this.

Both our countries have men dying in Afghanistan, are ruled by bankers who we didn't elect in our so called democracies etc.
We have far more in common than not.

We should be brothers in arms, fighting the fight...not literally.. against the powers who be, who are bent on taking our freedoms away.

Us Brits don't understand the Americans and their flag, maybe it is a shame that we don't have the same respect for our own.
One idiot should not have the power to cause so much time and energy when their are far more important things.

If he or one of his pals are an ABTS member his ego must be sky high, when in fact he is not worth air space.

I was kind of hoping the flag burning was show solidarity against American imperialism or world terrorism. I would have burnt a flag or two to that...

But football.. really? If football is the most serious, pressing concern in your life, you need to get a clue. I'm actually embarrassed for those people, seriously.

reply to post by Merriman Weir



Correct, sir. You made my point better than I could (albeit very angrily). There are so many bad things in this world that makes this thread look trivial.


I was trying to suggest that people take a step back, a deep breathe, and stop getting so irate about an individual thoughtlessly burning a flag (no matter how passionate he is about something, there was no need to be so aggressive towards a nation). It was my way of trying to calm down the people who were not really adding to the thread, just directly or indirectly insulting people. Sometimes the best way to calm these situations, you need to ask people to think about the people less fortunate than ourselves. Whether that is by massacre victims, starving children in Africa, or someone close to your heart.

I do this every day and it helps me enjoy every detail of this world. I'm not some kind of religious, meditating, hippy, free spirit type person, I'm just an average joe looking for answers. Some people may even say it's both a morbid and selfish way of making my life calmer and ultimately better, but hey!! Sue me.



Anyway, it's not my place to suggest people should calm down here. It's your right to be angry after all. I apologize to the people who were offended by my post.

Originally posted by neo96
i wish someone to tell flag manufactures to start making flags out of flame retardent materials


flag burning especially ours is totally unacceptable.


people tout this is free speech but its not its hate speach.



i wonder what the brits would think that if i urinated then torched the union jack if they would have a problem with it.

See this is what i think is funny, when people drew muhammad its freedom of speech..
But burning a flag is not?