Does all life have value? Religion vs animals!

Well, I have a cat who turns the house upside down when I am not at home; a dog who once saw me trying to get a small branch of grape vine covered by frost and he brought me one himself (I have no idea how he did that ) and 3 budgies who begin singing to me when I say “morning” to them at the first hour of the day. What do you think I think?

I`ve been an animal lover all of my life and for me every living thing has a soul.

I am sorry OP but I am going to have to strongly disagree. It isn't just religious people but EVERYONE. Saying religions vs animals is blatantly leaving out another big equation. There are Atheists who eat meat aren't there?

Humans have dominion over animals because we are more intelligent. Which other species have the ability to destroy the whole planet?

With that being said, I believe we also have an obligation to take care of the world. Earth is our home and people should take care of their homes.

I love ALL of God's creatures. I saved 2 baby birds that fell out of trees near my house. These were on two separate occasions during strong winds. The only time I will permit the killing of an animal is when:

1) Defense
2) Food
3) It is suffering from a serious injury (My heart would be broken if I had to)

Your thread title shouldn't be "Religion vs Animals" but "Humanity vs Earth".

Originally posted by Asktheanimals
Could this be the key to the mental aspect of "wellness"? I believe it is. We manifest our intent on this earth. If we live with respect and love then that will manifest itself in our lives through these other beings, even viruses and bacteria.

We have co-evolved with bacteria and viruses to the extent that there would be no humankind without them. Is this our true "other self" and not some ethereal floating spirit kind of thing? Being the practical sort, I tend to think so. There is power in prayer even if you're not a christian, it is an act of contrition to higher powers who cannot connect with us due to our ego.

One last thing; scientists have discovered that there are microbes in the soil that are essential to our brain functions. Dirt really is good for you!

I know one thing for certain. There's more going on than meets the eye. Neither science nor religion can adequately explain the non-rational things we experience. Perhaps we're like two dimensional images trying to understand a three dimensional world.

Somehow we are all part of the one sea of love and laughter which is manifesting as our universe. If so, understanding this physical world and living in it well is enough for the moment.

I read that thread about soil bacteria. After growing up as a pretty solitary waif in the forest, I firmly believe the natural world is meant to be part of us, and we part of it.

Of course animals have feelings/souls. It's just common sense imo, I could care less what science or any church says.

I find Atheists to be just as bad as the Christians who believe animals are worthless.

reply to post by brilab45

Right on the nail. If my animals don't go to heaven, then neither do I.

Reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where an old man and his dog go into the afterlife. He meets a guy who wants to take him to the path to Heaven but who says no pets are allowed. The man refuses to go into Heaven without his dog and walks away eventually finding another man who explains that his is the gate to Heaven and that dogs are allowed inside. Turns out the other guy's path was Hell.

A bit off topic perhaps but the point is the same, the bond between man and animal is primal and strong. We are one of them not above them

According to the Bible, animals have souls. Texts such as Genesis 1:21,24 are often mistranslated to read "living creatures." The exact Hebrew used in reference to animals throughout the Bible is "nephesh chayah," or "living soul." This is how the phrase has been translated in Genesis 2:7 and in four hundred other places in the Old Testament. Thus, Genesis 1:30 should more accurately read: "And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to everything that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is a living soul, I have given every green herb for meat."

God breathed the "breath of life" into man, and caused him to become a living soul. (Genesis 2:7) Animals have the same "breath of life" as do humans. (Genesis 7:15, 22) Numbers 16:22 refers to the Lord as "the God of spirits of all flesh." In Numbers 31:28, God commands Moses to divide up among the people the cattle, sheep, asses and human prisoners captured in battle and to give to the Lord "one soul of five hundred" of both humans and animals alike. Psalm 104 says God provides for animals and their ensoulment.

Being Metis in a land where farming is mostly impossible, thats all rocks and water and trees in my avatar, hunting is a necessity for survival.

The native side teaches hunting and fishing are not for fun. It is a job,
a necessity. In the spirit world a pact is made between hunter and hunted.
The animals that present themselves are a gift to man, wasting the gift is a grave sin. this relation ship has existed for tens of thousands of years.

When I asked why we take the buck when there is only one to a bunch of does, I was told that in white speak we have to preserve the genetic diversity of the herd because if not the viability of the fawns will decrease and many more deer will die of inbreeding type consequences.

As I said this relationship has worked for tens of thousands of years.
The deer and men are both still here.

Cruelty, trophy hunting, and wounding and leaving, sacrificing are verboten.
Things like the way wild bill hickock and his pals killed 2 million buffalo from the train in order to starve the Sioux from their ancestral lands are considered double genocides.

If the relationship is abused, the game disappears, and the people will starve.




[edit on 4-6-2010 by Danbones]

[edit on 4-6-2010 by Danbones]

[edit on 4-6-2010 by Danbones]

Originally posted by Equinox99
3) It is suffering from a serious injury (My heart would be broken if I had to)

'Mercy Kill' is a topic I still wrestle with. On one hand it ends suffering, on another it denies hope. I'm hoping that in this kind of situation be it animal or person that God helps me again.

Just a question:

When things like cats are found ritualy sacrificed, it is automatically considered "satanism" in the press, and the "satanists" are the only ones I know of that preach blood sacrifice these days...

I'm wondering why it is that way,
Could any one shed some light on that for me?

[edit on 4-6-2010 by Danbones]

Originally posted by Danbones
Just a question:

When things like cats are found ritualy sacrificed, it is automatically considered "satanism" in the press, and the "satanists" are the only ones I know of that preach blood sacrifice these days...

I'm wondering why it is that way,
Could any one shed some light on that for me?

Yes, because theistic Satanists declare they are sacrificing them to their lord, Satan.

its sad if we even have to ask that question. of course it does.

Value is a subjective guess, estimate of worth &/or usefulness.

Oddly the more things one sees potential 'value' in reflects more the expansive nature of that observer's mind & the less things one sees value in the simpler & more contractive/reductive that mind is.

That is not to say that 'finding' potential value in everything can not become problematic & potentially neurotic. This is where the idea of applicability or ease of applicability should probably be integrated into the 'realistic value' conceptualization. It improves the 'likelihood' factor, avoiding much of the fantastic evaluations.

It may be the difference between the creative mind & the uncreative mind.

The uncreative mind is dependent on a 'creator', because clearly they have neither the imagination nor motivation to create anything.
They are never a source only [mindless?] retail consumers.

The highly creative mind may need to sometimes limit the scope of its operations to bring them into the fringes of manageability.

To repeat, analytically, 'value' is an assignment [emotional?] function of the reflecting mind.

Now "life's' 'value'.

I suspect that it is life that is most caught up in the worth or unworthiness of life.
There is a very strong possibility that the Universe has little awareness, concern or care about 'life'. Our subjective binary cleavage 'from' the physical Universe may be a shortcoming of ours. Perhaps it is a cruelty of ignorance we inflict.

Entertainment?
Food for thought?
Food?
Interesting physics? Chemistry?

Maybe what we most value in life is life that reaffirms our own [egotistical? self-]'importance'.

Darn don't we just love our egos to be stroked?

Our psychologies are skewed towards self affirmation. It becomes hard to imagine we ever think an untainted thought.
Even so-called scientists come from all this presumptive culturalization.

Religious people are so addicted to human, explicit acknowledgment & insular self affirmation, and since other species can not provide this sycophantic, insipid patronage, they are simply excluded from their psychopathic prescriptions for nauseating living.
They would see all life oblitherated, including human life, in subservience to their mythological human icon.

Maybe value takes a little pause to consider.
Religious & other bigoted people don't pause & are [often horrifically violently] inconsiderate.

Will you accept tokens of pre-formed value,
or will you [& your life experience] craft your own?

For most of us it will be some mix of the two.

[edit on 4-6-2010 by slank]

The soul in an "Animal" is not different than the soul in a human. The soul could very well have been human in it's past life or human in it's next. There is still a hierarchy to the creation and the human form is the pinnacle of opportunity in the creation. The human form is considered a "Middle form", it is not the highest form but it is the pinnacle of spiritual opportunity. It has potential access to the entire creation. Dominion over the animals is true and natural but that does not mean rationalizing robbing them of their life or eating them.

reply to post by slank


That was a brilliant reply Slank. You cut right to the core of what religion is about to many. Not all, but most I'm afraid. I know it;s true because I seek affirmation as well. Guilty as charged.

I tend to beat up on religion, partly because it is easy, partly because religious bigotry is such a potential danger to vital civilization & might be part of the root of our possible self imposed extinction.

As for being 'guilty' for seeking affirmation, i think that is as natural as a purring kitten likes the physical affirmation stroking of its ego, its existence, its 'worth'.

Everyone [everything? even inanimate perhaps?] does it. I don't think one should feel bad about it per say, one just wants to be aware of it so we don't become slaves or puppets to it.
We certainly need some affirmation to sustain us, but we should probably avoid being gluttons.

Interestingly, socially, culturally, we see [evolving?] collective attitudes exerting themselves by what we try to deny or negate in terms of affirmation as well as providing support & sustenance to those [things] we like.

Sort of like psychological gardening. Pulling things we don't want, feeding things we do. And those things we [think we] may not want are just trying to live & sustain themselves.

I don't mind a robust gardened society, but certainly not to the exclusion & extinguishment , annihilation of all else.

reply to post by OldDragger


Christian having a steak dinner - "Thank you Lord for this food"

Evolutionist having a steak dinner - "Damn my cousin tastes good"

Originally posted by OldDragger

Here's something I have noticed that I will ask in a completly anecdotal way.
It seems to me that many non religious people I know have more respect for life ( other than human) than the people I know that are members of established religion. That is, the people that are instablished Christian churches seem to react with, "it's ONLY an animal".

I tried to keep up with the many directions this thread is going but gave up. Each religion is different. The spin-off of judaism, Christianity, has many spin-offs referred to as sects. Each sect maintains its own set of beliefs using a single religious source. Some advocate animal rights, some do not. Beliefs are not controlled by the single source [bible] they evolve as the culture evolves, including and disregarding information from other sources.

Biologically, humans are animals and are at the top of the food chain, as another poster pointed out. When the bible was first written, humans did not understand animal societies, in fact, humans did not know animals even had societies. If you look at Genesis and read the story of Cain and Abel, you will discover that ancient people felt animals held more importance than plants. Human life and animal life were united in a delicate balance. What made humans different was their ability to not only kill but to save.

Ancient humans recognized that they shared a bond with animals mostly through environmental factors. As populations grew and cultures changed, so did the beliefs about animals.

As far as animals having a soul? That depends on what you believe is the soul. Some say it is the energy that all life is made of; some say it is the ability to think; others say it is the ability to make choices; still, others believe it is the ability to recognize consequences between good and evil. The question of what is a soul, must first be answered before one can say whether animals have souls.

One thing is for certain, the more life that humans destroy, the more human life that will eventually be destroyed. Whether you believe in souless creatures or not, each living thing serves a purpose in nature and humans have upset the balance.

reply to post by SmokeJaguar67


Good post.

One thought though. if you believe so much in the well being of animals and stay clear of abused meats do you really think it makes a difference to the animal that you are eating. (spiritually lifeforce... aura)

Sure it may have been killed 'humanely' but that is just a word for us to feel 'ok' does the animal really need to be killed.

There is plenty of others sources for protein mushrooms! beans! it's possible to sustain a strong physical body & mind without meat.

I myself eat anything! but I wish to change (& will) after reading this thread surprisingly.

It seems your reasoning is 'its been killed within conditions I have constructed to convince myself it is morally ok'

not having a go at you, I really did enjoy your post. please take as little offence as you can from this it is not my intention even though it probably comes out that way!

[edit on 4-6-2010 by Th0r]

Originally posted by OldDragger
Do you think humans have "dominion" over animals?

This is an interesting question that I've wondered about ever since I learned the religious side of things as a child. It never sat right with me. And now, more than ever, I don't believe it at all.

We are ALL here, sharing the earth, IMO. We are part of nature's food chain. And because of our developed brains and technology, we are at the top of that food chain. Every life has value. The biblical idea that man has "dominion" over animals is, I believe, just a way to make it so that people don't feel guilty for using and eating animals. But, in my view, there's no reason to feel guilty. We all serve a part in this existence and when balanced with nature, it works very well.