Does all life have value? Religion vs animals!

Originally posted by ofhumandescent
Read Dominion by Matthew Scully,...

This is one of the ten best books I have every bought...

How much would you charge to sell a book I wrote?

To say that religious people have less care for animals is such a sweeping generality that it deserves statistics to back it up, and I see no proof of that in the OP. Did you pull that out of the air, or did it support your bias or something?

I'm a vegetarian for over twenty years, besides eating fish and eggs. I also love animals, and try to avoid walking on worms, ants, snails, etc whenever I'm hiking. To the contrary, I find religious people respect the sanctity of life more than many. I think the biggest deciding factors are peaceful midsets, which offset the desensitization of violence; diet, omnivores and vegetarians definately have differing outlooks (and we have less to no industry hormones raging in our systems); the maturity of a philosophy that values and promotes life, with a live and let live attitude.

As for the ants and such, I'm fond of telling people "Don't step on the little creatures you encounter, and maybe something bigger won't stomp on you"!

reply to post by saint4God


I have a sheep story. We lived on a cow, sheep and chicken farm (also had two peacocks).

One hot July/August day, Grandpa and Uncle S grabbed one of the sheep and started sheering it, taking off all the wool. In the beginning all the sheep were panick stricken, really freaked out and staying their distance, watching and crying.

Once grandpa released the sheep, the others gathered round it and then actually lined up to get their "hair cut", I kid you not.

I always sort of thought of sheep as dumb until that day.

Granted they can't do math (math is a bit tricky for me too) but they actually understood at that point they weren't going to be hurt.

[edit on 3-6-2010 by ofhumandescent]

reply to post by saint4God


Thats just it, I suppose when they prove to me that a plant is suffering when I eat it I will probably stop eating and starve to death.
I am ultrasensitive and can not stand the thought of the suffering of anything.
Funny enough I have a Bachelor Of Science degree in Agriculture but choose to do nothing with due to the nature of it.

Originally posted by Northwarden
I'm a vegetarian for over twenty years, besides eating fish and eggs.

*raises hand* I have a question because I do not know the answer. Why would you accept eating a fish but not pig or cow?

Originally posted by Northwarden
I think the biggest deciding factors are peaceful midsets, which offset the desensitization of violence; diet, omnivores and vegetarians definately have differing outlooks (and we have less to no industry hormones raging in our systems); the maturity of a philosophy that values and promotes life, with a live and let live attitude.

Ah, so meat eaters are less mature? Interesting...

Originally posted by Northwarden
As for the ants and such, I'm fond of telling people "Don't step on the little creatures you encounter, and maybe something bigger won't stomp on you"!

We probably look (and perhaps think) like ants compared to God.

Originally posted by ofhumandescent
In the beginning all the sheep were panick stricken, really freaked out and staying their distance, watching and crying.

Once grandpa released the sheep, the others gathered round it and then actually lined up to get their "hair cut", I kid you not.

I always sort of thought of sheep as dumb until that day.

Granted they can't do math (math is a bit tricky for me too) but they actually understood at that point they weren't going to be hurt.

That's quite smart! There are many people who see with their own eyes what they should trust and yet still do not trust it. I believe the critters have one-up'd us in your example. I believe you're right that many people who have no dealing with sheep think they are dumb. Oh the Christian lessons that could be drawn from your testimony...

reply to post by saint4God


It is proven that pigs are smarter than dogs about three time smarter, so next time your petting your dog and eating your bacon remember that.
Cows not so much. What she is trying to say is it is a general respect for life in general. And yes cows, chickens, pigs are injected with growth hormones, anitbiotics by the tons and it is called factory farming and yes you are ingesting it by the the boatloads.

Originally posted by Iamherefornow
Thats just it, I suppose when they prove to me that a plant is suffering when I eat it I will probably stop eating and starve to death.

Aha, this is the line I was hoping you'd draw. To me this makes the most sense. I don't believe in 'no suffering' because some suffering does have a point but understand where you're coming from.

Originally posted by Iamherefornow
I am ultrasensitive and can not stand the thought of the suffering of anything.

I think this is a benefit, not a liability. I would like to be a doctor, but my sensitivity of suffering keeps me from doing so...yet people need healing. Instead, I'm accepting this and using it to help the best way I know how.

Originally posted by Iamherefornow
Funny enough I have a Bachelor Of Science degree in Agriculture but choose to do nothing with due to the nature of it.

Couldn't you use that compassion to do something beneficial for the ranching industry?

For those who have a love of science and higher learning, please let me share this. In Physiology, my Junior year at the university, one of our experiments was to stick pins through a live frog, cut open the chest then drop Epinephrin on its heart to measure how much and how long it took before the frog had a heart attack (which of course kills the frog). I did not show up for this lab and received an F. It seemed pointless. I stomached the dead animal dissections though because I knew I needed the degree.

[edit on 3-6-2010 by saint4God]

The ranching industry was mad because the wild horses in the west were grazing on their land so they bitched and had many of them rounded up by the Bureau Of Land Management and god knows what their fate is now.
So no there are not a lot of good places to go with my degree anymore for which would be morally acceptable to me.
The family farm is now a thing of the past.

Originally posted by Iamherefornow
It is proven that pigs are smarter than dogs about three time smarter, so next time your petting your dog and eating your bacon remember that.

Although both are smart, this researcher says it's not comparable: www.rps.psu.edu...

"The pigs learned these tasks within 5 to 10 attempts, "very quickly," says Curtis. "As quickly as chimpanzees."

Originally posted by Iamherefornow
Cows not so much.

Maybe not as smart, but they certainly feel suffering. The following video is extremely disturbing for those who are sensitive to animal cruelty and inappropriate language, but it is also important to be aware of what happened at this particular farm. Many farms do treat animals with mercy, this one didn't and shows what a cow can feel:

Originally posted by Iamherefornow
What she is trying to say is it is a general respect for life in general. And yes cows, chickens, pigs are injected with growth hormones, anitbiotics by the tons and it is called factory farming and yes you are ingesting it by the the boatloads.

This is where the science could really come into the discussion. I'd be interested in seeing specifically what is being injected and the metabolites that we ingest as a result. I'm new to this area of study.

[edit on 3-6-2010 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Iamherefornow
The ranching industry was mad because the wild horses in the west were grazing on their land so they bitched and had many of them rounded up by the Bureau Of Land Management and god knows what their fate is now.
So no there are not a lot of good places to go with my degree anymore for which would be morally acceptable to me.
The family farm is now a thing of the past.

You'd know your situation best. The knowledge and testimony you've gained is valuable to the rest of us who haven't had that experience.

reply to post by saint4God


I live here in Columbus Ohio, this video was taken in Plain City Ohio very close to here. I have yet to watch it.
The guy that did this has also been charged with carrying a gun in his car, a felony. I hope he goes away for along time. The stupid idiot was studying at a local community college to be a police officer, imagine that.

Originally posted by Iamherefornow
I live here in Columbus Ohio, this video was taken in Plain City Ohio very close to here. I have yet to watch it.

Given our discussion, you may want to give it a miss. I'm sure your experience and imagination are accurate.

Originally posted by Iamherefornow
The guy that did this has also been charged with carrying a gun in his car, a felony.

From what I've read, a formal investigation is in the works.

Originally posted by Iamherefornow
I hope he goes away for along time. The stupid idiot was studying at a local community college to be a police officer, imagine that.

Although I can appreciate that you're upset and think this man has a very disturbed view of reality, we should be careful not to judge based on our limited information.

my opinion is that everything on earth was given to man by god, whether you want to use it or not. to each is his own- it comes down to person

reply to post by OldDragger

Originally posted by OldDragger Do you think humans have "dominion" over animals? That animals have no souls? I can't quite reconcile the faith coupled with disregard for animals and life in general. Thoughts?

I do not think that we humans have dominion over animals but of course it is obvious to me that we (as a species) have engineered things so that it might seem that we do. Many of us do unspeakably wretched things to animals because they are just an animal or because there are so many of them to dispatch and butcher in so little time down at the local abattoir.

Time is money you see to some less than honourable minded (or stressed out) meat breeders and the abattoir managers that a respect in ending an animal’s life humanly as it used to be in ancient times has been overtaken by a need to just get the job done as quickly as possible and with as little effort expended because time is money, overtime is a dirty word and everyone is out to make as much as they can.

Supply and demand is not outstripping supply yet but it is eating away at the very fabric of respect for the life we hold in our hands daily.

An animal is a being with a complex set of emotions and feelings and I eat meat but in saying it like I see it does not make me a hypocrite because I pick what I eat with care and I may pay more than might be necessary but I want to make sure that I eat a well tended free roamer rather than a penned in lump of misery that has to breathe and exist like some worthless thing in outrageous conditions and then as if that was not bad enough it might also have to suffer the added humiliation of being beaten and kicked because it does not follow voiced commands.

These Neanderthal-type men who have little regard for the beings they see as meat on legs and fail to understand that these animals they kick and beat, spit on and humiliate do not tend to speak English as their first language. However this fact seems to be lost on those who abuse the animals they supposedly care for on these meat farms because they are feeling frustrated and in their frustration they have lost control long enough to visit pain and misery on a creature that is already destined never to grow old or just be free to roam as it might wish.

In this context you get what you pay for and in paying for top meat it is fair to assume that most of the time that meat will have been treated with respect and also have been dispatched humanly. I would prefer to live as a vegetarian but I work hard and I work out just as hard and a craving for protein has me throwing vegetable food aside and diving straight for meat. I cannot help that, it is what it is and I make no apologies for it. However I can respect an animal and if I ever had to kill one to eat it I can be sure that it would be quick and I would utilise everything I possibly could.

All that said then, I do not think religion all by itself has driven us away from a worthy and noble respect for animals but it may have played a part. Personally I think it is a need to make money that has been the root cause of the bloody indifference and when a buyer forgets where the meat comes from and then just buys the cheap cuts or the special offers then they feed the machine that says “quantity over quality.”

I may not be educated in finance but one thing I do know is that business monies and the unrelenting creation of it will always try to follow the path of least resistance – take the shortest route from A to B.

You ask if animals have souls and I think all that lives, all that uses energy to move and exist has a soul in one form or another. I would call it a life force, life energy but calling it a soul is a good enough name for it too in my mind because it is just a name for something that is difficult to visualise and even comprehend.

I just have to look at one of my cats or my most loved dog, the best friend I ever knew and watch how they live and interact with their environment and each other to see that there is much more to them than simple needs and wants, driven by basic bioelectrical energy. In noticing this I am of the opinion that all life is connected to each other somehow in a way in some sort of a matrix I cannot understand yet. However I do not need to really understand it to suspect that it is there right in front of me but hidden from my sight by relentless years of so called education from school to college to sociological intricacies that come from overrated peer groups that revolve around overly complicated social rules and sub-alliances.

Regular meditation is a key and a means to a wondrous end!

Is that energy powering our brains, nervous systems and muscles a piece of that soul energy or is that the thing that is locked away out of all sight and away from all ways of gauging via technology. Will there one day be an actual way to gauge the strength of a beings soul by simply looking at them through some lense or is such deep knowledge always being to be a mystery?

Never say never I say!

Some people purport to see auras and I have no reason to dispute them because the world is strange and amazing but also much more mysterious than anything we could probably imagine in our wildest moments of mania. I have seen UFO’s with increasing frequency, I have connected via deep meditation to golden rooms lined with glyphs and I have even connected to what I can only describe as a “data stream” of intelligences so to be fair I have no right to dispute such claims regarding auras.

Back on topic: my opinion is everything that lives from the bacteria to the sequoia has a soul, differing in strength depending on the creature and it is the reason my wife often grows exasperated when she screams at me to kill the spider mooning at her with intent from the sink only for her to catch me secretly rushing the spider out to a secluded spot in the garden, hunched over like a gnome.

In my opinion, killing something when there is no need and just because that something has more than four legs is to my mind the height of ignorance and not a healthy way to live but 7 billion people have 7 billion ways of looking at things so you accept that as a reality and either try to change it in your own small way or you shut up and let it play out as it will. I have come to believe over the years that there are very real but unseen energies flowing in flux like rivers within a sea and they are all around us moving at the whims of our negative and positive actions as we live out our cycles, our lives on this world.

I think there is more to that saying “You reap what you sow” and is probably linked to this energy matrix.

I try all the time to acknowledge this and inform those dear to me but I am not perfect by any means and I make many mistakes but I know that as long as I at least try to respect all life then my life and those that might agree in whole or in part with some of what I ramble on about is going to be better than exhibiting contempt or indifference any day of the week. You just never know what the real truth is regarding life force and the laws that govern this world unseen but I have a nagging suspicion that it does not miss a trick.

Something also tells me that as a race of apparently sentient creatures we are about as clueless as a bag of ferrets when it comes down to the real reality in physical and energy contexts but human arrogance (not necessarily a bad thing) will tend to give us bad information that is always going to be subject to change just like the doctors of old once thought sticking a freshly bisected pigeon over a plague boil was going to make a difference.

I did not actually mean to write so much but wow the stars and the cold night air is mightily conducive to writing

You're getting alot of agreement with this thread myself included.

Whether or not animals have souls is irrelevant to me. They ARE. That is enough.
The rules of nature I have tried to apply to my own life. As I understand them they are:

I may kill:
To eat
To defend myself or loved ones from injury
To defend my nest (home)

If none of those apply then I cannot kill an animal. I try to extend that also to plants, insects and all form of life short of viruses. Even those I have to wonder about. Are viruses sentient beings? Would they respond to emotional stimuli from a person they inhabited? Are rocks not alive? they are "born", they grow "aggregate/metamorphose, they "die" and dissolve with age eventually.
I try to engage nature emotionally, logically and spiritually every chance I get. It seems to be my way to find the most remote corner of the swamp or woods and to immerse myself within the great work of creation. To actually feel the beauty and creativity within all beings, and to be a silent witness to their ways of being and living from day to day, season to season.
Nature is always greater than us, unpredictable, beautiful, both nurturing and dangerous at times. Awareness is the only doorway, to feel your presence within other beings and their presence within you.
More than anything else, nature will humble you.

[edit on 3-6-2010 by Asktheanimals]

Who cares what religions or ancient books say about animals?

I'm not even an "animal person", but I've loved and been loved by enough pets to know we are all people, no matter how we communicate, what sort of fur we have, or what form of locomotion we use.

Look deep into the eyes and you see something eternal. If you can't see it your own perception need looking at.

reply to post by Asktheanimals


In a way we are all animal/virus symbionts.
Viruses have incorporated into our structure over millenniums, and bacteria too are part of our bodies.

Some we need to kill, but keeping well nourished and healthy means our bodies can live in harmony with most of the microbial world we're exposed to. And it's probable that regular infections for bugs we encounter strengthen the body, tune the immune system, and kill of the beginnings of cancers before they get established.

Some/Many Christians believe God put animals on earth to feed man & work for man.

Not what I personally believe.

Originally posted by Kailassa
reply to post by Asktheanimals

 

In a way we are all animal/virus symbionts.
Viruses have incorporated into our structure over millenniums, and bacteria too are part of our bodies.

Some we need to kill, but keeping well nourished and healthy means our bodies can live in harmony with most of the microbial world we're exposed to. And it's probable that regular infections for bugs we encounter strengthen the body, tune the immune system,
and kill of the beginnings of cancers before they get established.

Good points Kailassa

Could this be the key to the mental aspect of "wellness"? I believe it is. We manifest our intent on this earth. If we live with respect and love then that will manifest itself in our lives through these other beings, even viruses and bacteria.

We have co-evolved with bacteria and viruses to the extent that there would be no humankind without them. Is this our true "other self" and not some ethereal floating spirit kind of thing? Being the practical sort, I tend to think so. There is power in prayer even if you're not a christian, it is an act of contrition to higher powers who cannot connect with us due to our ego.

One last thing; scientists have discovered that there are microbes in the soil that are essential to our brain functions. Dirt really is good for you!