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Does all life have value? Religion vs animals!

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posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 10:22 AM
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It's said that dogs are the only animals that will love and protect you more than itself and I think that is true.
My dog experiencs a bunch of emotions. He gets happy/excited, irritated, angry, scared safe and nervous etc. My dog dreams (the barking and kicking in the middle of the night is proof of so) and that shows imagination.

Animals have just as much right on this planet as we do, and are much more important as people give way too.




posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 10:36 AM
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Thanks to all those that have posted thoughful replies, this is very interesting to me.
To those that persist in interpreting this as some anti religion thread, you don't get it. Nowhere did I imply that religious people were more "cruel" than atheists! AND, I won't bother to answer any post or U2U's that simply want a fight.
Please keep posting, I want to hear MORE of your thoughts on this.



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 10:39 AM
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I interpret the passage in Genesis re man having dominion over the animals (and over all the earth) a bit differently than a lot of people do.

Yes, God (if you believe in a higher power) did apparently give us humans power over the animals on the earth. In other words, we have stewardship over them, just as adults are charged with the stewardship of children until they reach a certain age.

We are responsible for children and we are responsible for the earth, including the animals on it. There is nothing in the Bible that says we are to abuse, neglect or wantonly destroy them for our amusement.

If we humans cannot treat God's creation responsibly here on earth we certainly can't expect to receive greater power as we "graduate" from the earthly plane to a higher level of spiritual development.

I personally don't believe in killing animals unless it is for food. and even then it should be done humanely. The other exception might possibly be to keep one species from overpopulating and threatening the whole eco-system of the earth. And I'm not even positive about that one. I do kill insects if they are pesky or invading my living space, but I try to do it quickly with as little pain as possible to them.

And I, too, would like to see my former pets in whatever "afterlife" there may be for me.



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 11:03 AM
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Generally what the Original Poster said is true from MOST of the people I have run across.. I have always thought (god knows I could be wrong) that ALL living things are equal in GOD'S "eyes".. From the smallest to the biggest animals and species this planet harbors. Just my opinion.

This is one reason I have Tried to become a vegetarian.. Happily I can say I have not eaten any red meat or chicken or anything that walks on 2 or 4 legs in over 7 years.. Fish and eggs are the toughest to get rid of. For me anyway.



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by OldDragger

I'm not religious at all, but if I were, I'd assume that all creation belongs to God, and God bestowed life and that I should respect that, animal or human.
So, I ask, how do you feel about this?
Do you think humans have "dominion" over animals?
That animals have no souls?
I can't quite reconcile the faith coupled with disregard for animals and life in general.
Thoughts?


These are from King James bible version:

Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them: and whatever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

*The creation of Earths animals.

Genesis 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

*So you can see the animals were created by the Lord and named by Adam but were for help! This is before the sin with Eve occured.

Revelations 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

*In this version of KJB those within the sea are considered to have souls (mabey sea mammals?). In other versions they are mentioned as animals.

Proverbs 12:27 The slothful man roasteth not that which he took in hunting: but the substance of a diligent man is precious.

*Showing how today mankind hunts for food to please his carnivor hunger OR FOR SPORT
.

*I do believe that humans were designed to only eat the many fruits given to us from the Alpha in the original plan of things of Eden. But after we began to sin and develope more of a hunger we began to eat flesh LIKE OUR SERPENT TEACHER/DECIEVER. GOd knew that if we began to eat flesh eentually our sinful ignorant selves would try to eat each other CANABLISIM.

*So from what I presented these animals were created to assist mankind in keeping this world moving in the correct direction not for food originally. With that I do feel they WERE, NOT NOW DUE TO OUR SINFUL WAYS under dominion of humanity but that doesnt meen we are to take them for granted as they were made to help us not feed us.







posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 11:34 AM
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reply to post by slank
 


I'm sorry Slank but I am going to have to disagree. What about all the religions that tell us to respect all creatures? My family is Christian and I will confirm that we all love animals and respect everything that is alive on this Earth, plants included.

I take that pre-formed value and mold it to my experiences. It is similar to taking past science experiments and developing them into your knowledge.

I can understand where you are coming from when you speak about religion. You must understand, there are far more religious people than there are atheists so there is a bigger margin that we screw up. But you must also know that we have come a long way from our old tribal ways.



They would see all life oblitherated, including human life, in subservience to their mythological human icon.


Well that would mean I would contradict everything I have been taught which is something that I can't do. I am sure most religious people will not end human life if it is labeled for God. I use that sentence loosely because I am basing it on my experiences.

However, we do have zealots which I am sure you are aware of and I am ashamed of. But to group every religious person with a preconceived notion is also wrong IMO.



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 12:03 PM
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Acts 10:11-15

11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
KJV



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 12:16 PM
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God created all life, and yes we should respect that life.. unless we need to eat.

If we need to hunt for our food, and many people on earth still do, God said we can eat the plants and animals.

This is still respecting the animals life because it is using the animal for the purpose for which it was born.

They were made for Man's pleasure, to look at, to care for and yes, to eat.

If a man was starving and refuses to eat the animal that is running around him, and he dies, God is going to ask him, Why did you not eat the animal that i sent for you to eat?

[edit on 4-6-2010 by JohnPhoenix]



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 12:21 PM
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reply to post by JohnPhoenix
 


it is using the animal for the purpose for which it was born.

They were made for Man's pleasure, to look at, to care for and yes, to eat.
--------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm. I can't believe that animals and plants exist for "Man's pleasure".
Seems kind of...Bronze Age thinking, but that's just me.
Why do you believe that to be true?



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 12:24 PM
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reply to post by FearNoEvil
 


Um.....no disrespect intended, but what the heck does that mean?



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 12:27 PM
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Originally posted by OldDragger
reply to post by JohnPhoenix
 


it is using the animal for the purpose for which it was born.

They were made for Man's pleasure, to look at, to care for and yes, to eat.
--------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm. I can't believe that animals and plants exist for "Man's pleasure".
Seems kind of...Bronze Age thinking, but that's just me.
Why do you believe that to be true?


It's a common belief in Christianity. The Bible says this. Here, look at this: webcache.googleusercontent.com...:3-FqWf22-T8J:www.starlightbaptist.com/clientimages/31396/animals.doc+bible+says+animals+were+made +for+man&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a



WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY

ABOUT ANIMALS?

I. ARE ANIMALS & MANKIND THE SAME CREATION?

THE BIBLE SAYS: GEN 1:24-28 GEN 2:7 LK 12:5-7

FROM THIS WE LEARN:

1. Man is not just a higher animal; man was created separate & in the image of God. Gen 1:24

2. Man has a living soul. Gen 2:7 Animals are never mentioned in this form, nor is it

ever taught that animals are eternal.

3. God does care for animals. Lk 12:5-7-- Says that He does not forget even a tiny sparrow.

4. Man is much greater in value because of eternal soul. Gen 2:7

II. WHAT PURPOSE DO ANIMALS SERVE IN GOD’S CREATION?

THE BIBLE SAYS: PSA 8:4-8 PRO 12:10 EX 20:24

FROM THIS WE LEARN:

1. Animals are under man’s dominion – rule, control, use, purpose. Ps 8:4-8
2. Animals were made for man’s use & pleasure – all works of God’s hand are for man. All things are under his feet. Ps 8:6
3. Entire animal kingdom is under man’s feet – does not mean that man has the right to be cruel

or to misuse. Pro 12:10 Man has the right to rule over, manage it for his purposes.

4. Animals were made to be used in Old Testament for sacrifices to God. Ex 20:24

III. IS IT RIGHT TO USE ANIMALS FOR FOOD?

THE BIBLE SAYS: GEN 9:3 EX 12:8 I KINGS 17:6

ACTS 10:10-13 LEV 10:9-14 I KINGS 17:6

FROM THIS WE LEARN:

1. From the time of Noah, GOD has intended for man to eat the flesh of animals. Gen 9:3
2. Israel ate flesh; Jesus ate meat; & the Passover meal was a lamb Ex 12:5-10
3. Peter was specifically told to eat meat by God. Acts 10:10-13 (kill and eat) All dietary restrictions were removed by God. He would not have done that if He was opposed to eating meat for food.
4. God commanded His people to eat flesh & provided it for the ministry. Lev 10:9-14
5. God fed Elijah by the hands of the ravens. I Kings 17:6



IV. IS IT WRONG TO EAT PORK AND CERTAIN OTHER FOODS?

THE BIBLE SAYS: ACTS 10:10-13 1 TIM 4:1-5

FROM THIS WE LEARN:

1. No. Those dietary restrictions were only for Israel to teach them separation from other nations & the difference between Holy & unholy. God removed all restrictions. Acts 10:10-13
2. The Bible warns against those who promote vegetarianism. I Tim 4:1-5 (doctrine of devils)
3. Bible clearly teaches that animals were created to be eaten.
4. Not cruel to hunt animals for pleasure and food.
5. Not wrong to fish – not being cruel – that’s what animals were created for.



V. IF I CHOOSE NOT TO EAT MEAT, IS THAT WRONG BEFORE GOD?

THE BIBLE SAYS: ROMANS 14:2, 3, 6

FROM THIS WE LEARN:

1. Christians are free to eat or not to eat.
2. Christians should eat what suits them best.
3. Must be careful not to make your conscience a law for others.



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 12:58 PM
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reply to post by OldDragger
 

Sorry I was so vague in my previous post.

I just to wanted point out that, in the New Testament, God told Peter to kill and eat animals.

There are many other verses in the bible that give permission to eat meat.



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 02:03 PM
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Not sure where this thread became about eating meat?

I do find it odd, and that' part of my OP, that some think animals, in fact the universe, was created to serve and amuse humans!

I think that is, to say the least, pretty unlikely!



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 02:36 PM
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Hope for some that 1 day animal like humanoids dont show up like Anubis and burst all the bubbles. I seen some evidence of these humanoids in art works from various religions. Imagine if some how these ET were related to Earth animals like humans are led to believe they are related to Apes. Also the son of GOD is called a LAMB so. Again in reference to the georgia guidstones the animals are signifigant to nature fully. And as far as Ape relations would we be eating meat if we were APES or just fruits, just asking for I am not sure if any monkeys or apes are meat eaters. good thread S&F



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 02:42 PM
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reply to post by OldDragger
 



There is the story of the last viking ( Christian ) outpost in Greenland at the end of the medieval warming period ( the one Al Gore left out of his "hockey stick chart. LOL ).
At the point the winter sea conditions prevented supplies from reaching the village and the farming failed, the Inuit offered to teach the Norse how to Hunt and gather.
The Inuit said come to our ceremonies and we will begin there.
The priest forbade this as an abomination.
The Inuit said we cannot hunt without first asking permission from the spirit world, where the spirits of the animals we hunt reside, it just can't be done.
The Norse all starved.



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 02:52 PM
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Reply to post by OldDragger
 


I haven't time to skim over the posts but in relation to the OP, I don't believe that humans have domain over animals. Furthermore I completely disagree that religions have no care over animals. In fact I'm a Hindu and most of us are vegetarians. We don't eat beef no matter if your an omnivore or herbivore. Animals in our religion are sacred. Elephants and so on. There are many Asian religions which believe in the importance of animals.


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 03:10 PM
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Ecclesiastes 3
...
18 I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals.
19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless.
20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.
21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"
...

[edit on 4-6-2010 by Blue Shift]



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 03:17 PM
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reply to post by Th0r
 



Originally posted by Th0r Good post. One thought though. if you believe so much in the well being of animals and stay clear of abused meats do you really think it makes a difference to the animal that you are eating. (spiritually lifeforce... aura) Sure it may have been killed 'humanely' but that is just a word for us to feel 'ok' does the animal really need to be killed.


It makes a difference to me that I myself am not playing any part in the machine that treats life so cruelly and in trying to play my part in sourcing my meat to the point that I know where it came from , how it was fed and so on then yes I believe my karma is cleaner for it. In a word I have to make the best of a bad situation because I enjoy eating meat. My favourite food is actually haggis for instance and my second favourite is Lobster and my third – is also a meaty meal.

In a world that consisted of numbers in the tens or hundreds of millions rather than the billions we actually have, it would in my opinion be much easier to be concerned for the meat we raise but sadly it is irrelevant because the world is what it is and with such an incomprehensible host of humanity scattered all over its surface then animals raised for meat are going to be regarded as numbered and catalogued biomass because with such numbers we must treat it all in the context of a number or the machine will trip up and collapse under its own weight. There are no life forms in such a context there are just units and these units will be killed even if I turned away from meat and became a vegetarian.

As it is, to my mind it is not about asking if the animal really needs to be killed because the fact of the matter it is being killed and its type will continue to be killed but the more people who buy well tended meat then the market for well tended and well cared for meat is going to soar.

As to making a difference to the animal spiritually if it is treated well or not well that is also not really the main point I was making because in sourcing my meat carefully I am not thinking of the animals soul but I am most certainly thinking about its life and how it lived and died. If I can play a small part in at least helping a more compassionate market to grow under the auspices of a new mantra “quality over quantity” then that is no bad thing and there is at least a chance.


Originally posted by Th0r There is plenty of others sources for protein mushrooms! beans! it's possible to sustain a strong physical body & mind without meat.


True and I eat these things too but nothing makes me happier than a huge matured steak and I have tried to live a life of a vegetarian a long time ago but it was a fool’s errand because I ended up dreaming and thinking about meat, specifically beef... Never again!


Originally posted by Th0r I myself eat anything! but I wish to change (& will) after reading this thread surprisingly. It seems your reasoning is 'its been killed within conditions I have constructed to convince myself it is morally ok' not having a go at you, I really did enjoy your post.


It has been killed within conditions that has been quick and with as little pain to the animal as possible and this is very important to me and has nothing at all to do with convincing myself of anything. It is an embarrassment to me that you took it as such and indicates that I have not been clear in my earlier post. Respectfully I take your point but I also disagree with it totally!

It was never about constructing a gilded cage to ease my guilt as I munch down on my steak because it was always about respecting the animal I am eating because I chose a long time ago to make a difference to my own life. No matter how I live, animals will die and people will eat them but as more and more people become responsible and more respectful to the things they eat then the meat markets will also become more responsible and compassionate towards the animals they slaughter because people are getting wiser to the reality of supply and demand thanks to a loss of trust in the mainstream media outlets (in my opinion).

It will put a stress on the machine but it will adapt to the new call for quality over quantity but as in everything I am not naive and people in vast numbers will always want cheap meat and there will be markets that will be more than happy to cater for them in vast numbers.

I think the power of the World Wide Web is making it much more difficult to pull the wool over the eyes and I love it because at least things are changing albeit slowly.


Originally posted by Th0r please take as little offence as you can from this it is not my intention even though it probably comes out that way! [edit on 4-6-2010 by Th0r]


I have taken no offence at all to the things you have said and I also respect the manner in which you confronted me so all is well and no you did not come out as being offensive (starred).






[edit on 4-6-2010 by SmokeJaguar67]



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 04:51 PM
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reply to post by Blue Shift
 


Interesting stuff.
Thanks, though it seems that The Old Testament is kinda all over the place as far as continuity. I know the believers will disagree.



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 05:00 PM
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Here's an OT question for the literal Bible believers.
Why would God create a universe to serve us, then create a hell?
Can a person be condemed for not respecting life other than human?
Not cruelty, just indifference.
?




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