Does all life have value? Religion vs animals!

Originally posted by Danbones
Why do they call a group of religious people a flock?

Because Christ referred to his children as "sheep", using the analogy of those who listen to his voice and follow him. He's quite the trend-setter. Also, sheep are not as stupid as people make them out to be, they don't follow people they don't know willingly. Finally, to God, I'm sure we're not exactly seen as "bright creatures" from an intelligence standpoint...but He loves us anyway. Should we not do the same for the creatures we care for?

reply to post by OldDragger


It is ironic for me that you post this now as, just this week, my son and his friends had a "funeral" for a dead bird they found on the road.

They were very upset about the bird's fate (naturally so as their encounters with death have been few), but pretended to read from "a bible," sang for the bird, and imagined they saw the bird's spirit or soul going up to "above outer-space" and into the heavens.

But perhaps the most important message was: they claimed that according to God, "animals are created as equals, and that God loves humans and animals alike..."

As a family, we believe in God, and were taught Christianity--however we are not traditional in the sense of going church or religious institutions to practice our beliefs.

My faith, and intuition both tell me all living creatures have souls...I believe it but I can't prove it, and I agree with some of the posters here that it is the responsibility of humans to take care of all animals...which is why the gulf "tragedy" and its potential ramifications sadden me deeply as of late-

May humans do all they can do, and may a Loving God's will be done...

SJ

Originally posted by OldDragger
How about a wild fish in the sea? An insect? A pest!

Often times we have bugs in our lab. I have a 'bug box' to catch them and release them outside. I do eat fish, but am not in the practice of torturing them for my amusement. A mountain lion or grizzly bear probably would not give me the respects, but knowing that I helped sustain another life is worth something at least, is it not? Early ticket to Heaven. If I see a Black Widow or Brown Recluse (I can properly identify them) then it gets an early ticket too.

Originally posted by OldDragger
It always strikes me when I go to a zoo: the people that look at the animals-"it's so ugly" or "they are so dumb" type comments.

This frustrates me as well.

Originally posted by OldDragger
I've NEVER heard a sermon or cleric speak to a church about this!
I've never heard anything even close from Evangelical Christianity!

I have heard in a Christain school that animals do not have a soul, but am wondering if this is meant as a comfort to us who consume them though I disagree with the teaching. I haven't heard of abuse as acceptable.

Originally posted by OldDragger
Isn't EVERY living thing entitled to live it's life?

What say you to the lion eating gazelles? "Stop doing that"? Lions disagree with you, perhaps you could speak to them?

[edit on 3-6-2010 by saint4God]

The Lord God of Israel is the God which started the whole thing by accepting animal sacrifices brought forth by Abel.

The Lord God of Israel is the the devil disguised as God the creator.

The Lord of Israel through out of the bible is a fire breathing killer in disguise of clouds upon mountains. The Lord in the New Testament is the same fella but with a nicer disguise.

Why would a God of Creation desire murder and blood in exchange for forgives of sins?

The Lord God surly demands a lot of killings in the Old Testament. Why didn't the Lord just demand them to sacrifice a animal as a payment for their sins. That is what the people had to do otherwise if they sinned. As requested by their Lord.

God made the 10 commandments. Why would the lord demand people who didn't worship him to be stoned to death? You shall not kill. This request is repeated in the revelations in the new testament.

The Lord demand that the people of Israel should break every one of the commandments God told us to obey. He demanded that the people of Israel should plunder, steal, and kill in his name.







[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

reply to post by spy66


Awww.
Folks, don't let this derail my thread!
I'm enjoying your responses greatly, I don't want this to become a debate on religion!
I'm going to be my own mod, please stick to the topic!

Originally posted by spy66
Why would a God of Creation desire murder and blood in exchange for forgives of sins?

This isn't about murder and blood, it's about sacrifice and tithing. Give it another read and if it still doesn't make sense, I'd be glad to help.

Originally posted by spy66
The Lord God surly demands a lot of killings in the Old Testament.

And an ultimate killing, His one and only son, as the pinnacle of sacrifice to end all sacrifices.

Originally posted by spy66
God made the 10 commandments. Why would the lord demand people who didn't worship him to be stoned to death? You shall not kill.

Right, we as people should not take a life. He can, His law can, we can not. He's the authority, not us. His perfect justice, not our flawing rationalization. Does this clarify?

Sorry OldDragger, didn't mean to de-rail, but spy is building an 'equivalency' that say what's 'good for the goose is good for the gander'....or more to the point, 'what's good for human is good for the goose'.

[edit on 3-6-2010 by saint4God]

I think everyone should respect and value all life, which includes animals of all kind and plant life.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't eat animals though, that's just the natural way of things but I think it's wrong to mistreat anything just for the sake of doing it.

[edit on 3-6-2010 by NotTheIlluminati]

[edit on 3-6-2010 by NotTheIlluminati]

reply to post by saint4God


NO it does not. A sacrifice of a animals is murder. To demand it you demand murder. To kill or burn a animal is not a sacrifice. It is as far from it as it could be. The only thing that is sacrificing anything is the animal. It has to sacrifice its life for our stupidity.







[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

reply to post by saint4God


I have made it a point to kill nothing. Not bugs, not anything if I can help it. I hate flies but I will even put them in something and put them outside if possible. By the way I am not religious it I guess is more spiritual I think all things have the right to live and it is not my right to take their life no matter how meaniless man may see them as being.
I am the idiot that stops in the middle of the road for a animal when most people would run it right over.

Originally posted by spy66
A sacrifice of a animals is murder.

Is this from The Book of Spy? Which verse might that be?

Originally posted by spy66
The only thing that is sacrificing anything is the animal.

Clearly you've never owned a ranch.


[edit on 3-6-2010 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Iamherefornow
I have made it a point to kill nothing.

What do you eat?

I eat mostly vegtables, fruits, cheese, no meats and beer

Originally posted by Iamherefornow
I eat mostly vegtables, fruits...

You eat food that is still alive? Then indeed, you are killing every time you eat.


[edit on 3-6-2010 by saint4God]

reply to post by Iamherefornow


I worked for the USDA awhile back and stopped eating meat after that. After I saw what goes into the meat and how the factories are regulated that was all it took for me. I really was not much of a meat eater to begin with but after that I really could not stomach it anymore.
I know vegetables and fruits have their own problems but something about eating meat now just turns my stomach.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by spy66
A sacrifice of a animals is murder.

Is this from The Book of Spy? Which verse might that be?

Originally posted by spy66
The only thing that is sacrificing anything is the animal.

Clearly you've never owned a ranch.


[edit on 3-6-2010 by saint4God]

You wouldn't know from what book it is from. Clearly lol.

I have lived on a farm not to far from Edmonton. So yeah i know a bit about farming and killing of animals.

But that was not the point here. I was making a point about sacrifice. You dont sacrifice animals on a farm or on a ranch. But you would probably not understand that either by the knowledge you display.

A rancher or a farmer dont kill his own animal. See the word kill!

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Originally posted by Iamherefornow
I worked for the USDA awhile back and stopped eating meat after that.

Firstly, my thanks to that organization for helping me establish a healthy diet, I've managed to lose 36 pounds for following their guidelines and have kept it off for more than 8 years. The key is diet, exercise every day, cut saturated fats, and reduce calories. It really is that simple folks.

Originally posted by Iamherefornow
After I saw what goes into the meat and how the factories are regulated that was all it took for me. I really was not much of a meat eater to begin with but after that I really could not stomach it anymore.
I know vegetables and fruits have their own problems but something about eating meat now just turns my stomach.

Fair enough, just saying that you do kill whether directly or indirectly...and it is Biblically permissible to do so to eat. I agree that there should be ethical treatment of animals taken into serious regard.

reply to post by saint4God


Yes if you want at look at it like that I guess you are right. But then you get in the debate as to what is really alive. Yes plants are alive but do they think? Do they have a living thinking brain? What a long debate we could get into over all this.
I am not scientist so I chose not to debate over what is truly alive.All I am saying if it moves I don`t kill it or eat it.

Originally posted by spy66
You wouldn't know from what book it is from. Clearly lol.

Enlighten me.

Originally posted by spy66
I have lived on a farm not to far from Edmonton. So yeah i know a bit about farming and killing of animals.

Ah, then you know that ranchers depend on their livestock their livelyhood, whether it's the product of the animal or animal themselves. Would that be a correct statement?

Originally posted by spy66
You dont sacrifice animals on a farm or on a ranch.

Not anymore, no, because the final sacrifice has been made.

Originally posted by spy66
But you would probably not understand that either by the knowledge you display.

Try me.

Originally posted by spy66
A rancher or a farmer dont kill his own animal. See the word kill!

"A ranch is an area of landscape, including various structures, given primarily to the practice of ranching, the practice of raising grazing livestock such as cattle or sheep for meat or wool" - en.wikipedia.org...

Please explain how a rancher obtains meat from livestock without killing.

[edit on 3-6-2010 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Iamherefornow
Yes plants are alive but do they think? Do they have a living thinking brain?

You're correct that they do not think nor have a brain. If you said I don't kill things that think or have a brain, then I wouldn't have picked on ya

Originally posted by Iamherefornow
What a long debate we could get into over all this.

I wasn't meaning to be pointless, I was curious as to where you draw the line.

Originally posted by Iamherefornow
I am not scientist so I chose not to debate over what is truly alive.All I am saying if it moves I don`t kill it or eat it.

I don't think you have to be a scientist to debate it, there's enough information about the topic where you don't have to go to a university to be told. I'm a scientist and scientists are still arguing over what is and is not alive (usually on the topic of viruses). Moving and thinking are your qualifiers, I gotcha, but killing isn't out of the question.

reply to post by OldDragger


Read Dominion by Matthew Scully, he basically says the same thing and this is because many religions teach, man has dominion over all other creatures on earth.

Look at the witch hunts, the inquisitions, the crusades, the holy wars, and on and on it goes. You would think people would start to come to their senses and realize being religious does not make you spiritual or moral. It's is ones real actions towards those he / she encounter that determine one's moral fiber.

"Some books you don't just read, you live with them, you tell friends about them, you read passages aloud to your wife, they change the way you live in the world. This is one of those books.... An extraordinary book, deep, witty, incisive.... I cannot think of a single volume that can equal this one in passion, in persuasiveness, in profundity.... I defy you to read this without a feeling of awe, because the righter gets it so right, no just the idea, but also the tone, the hidden appeal, the intense feeling behind the writing.... Eloquent passages occur over and over in the book. You cannot but sigh with pleasure as you read them.... Absolutely devastating.... You feel the compassion flowing from him right onto the page, and hopefully right into your heart as it did mine. It is compelling stuff. I challenge anyone to read it with indifference. Anyone who has anything to do with animals (and that means everyone who eats them) owes it to him or herself to read this extraordinary book. It just might change your life." -- Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson, New Zealand Listener

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This is one of the ten best books I have every bought, it is powerful and quite insightful as to why man feels he has dominon over all other lifeforms upon this planet.






[edit on 3-6-2010 by ofhumandescent]