Lebanon fires on Israeli warplanes: security official

reply to post by illusive man


SA7, SA8 and SA8

I should add - SA18 is a rumor with a significant chance of being false.



[edit on 1-6-2010 by Mdv2]

No worries, you should start worrying if Hezbollah starts to use its equipment (SAMs). second line.

That.
My guess is that Lebanon does not want another conflict however they also do not want Israeli planes going in and out as they please. So they use current very problematic situation Israel got itself into to draw attention to this issue. Thus they fire flak that cannot reach heights of Israeli jets but will reach depths of media.
And as for:

mmh what ever happend to the arab peace plan where israel would be granted full diplomatic ties, oh thats right Israel doesnt like the Idea of having to return land, my bad, Israel is always the victim right,

Israel cannot agree to that plan because of this:

Attain a just solution to the problem of Palestinian refugees to be agreed upon in accordance with the UN General Assembly Resolution No 194

UN resolution 194:

Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date

Israel will never agree to return of refugees. And i am sure that no Palestinian or Arab leader will declare that he (or she maybe) drops this claim.

[edit on 1-6-2010 by ZeroKnowledge]

Nice when you need UN permission to defend your own airspace.

No suprise we have another big finger accident like a few weeks ago and this is the zionists waring everyone who owns the check book and i warned of this in other threads.

Are you ready to embrance the amero

Originally posted by CanadianDream420
If a Lebanese AA hit an Israeli war plane... There will be HARD retaliation.

Yes nations would stop buying USA hardware and go for the cheaper russian version.

I think Lebanon is trying to save the missiles when the real war breaks out. Also i think Israel's military might in terms of technology and high tech weapons cant be competed by these guys. I think Israel has very high number of mass weapons of destruction. When the war comes we'll know what Israeli military really is. Also officially it is not proved Israel is having nuclear bombs. Like a prankster does something and says 'i didnt do it', Israel is planning something maybe..

third World War seems almost hovering over our heads unavoidable

Lets not forget that Turkey is a big player in this region and already stated that it is going to escort the next flotilla that comes through the area. There military is pretty advanced and there troop numbers are some of the highest of the world..

Turkey Military Strength

PERSONNEL
Total Population: 71,892,808 [2008]
Population Available: 39,645,893 [2008]
Fit for Military Service: 33,444,999 [2008]
Reaching Military Age Annually: 1,298,979 [2008]
Active Military Personnel: 514,000 [2008]
Active Military Reserve: 380,000 [2008]
Active Paramilitary Units: 148,700 [2008]

VERSUS


Israel Military Strength

PERSONNEL
Total Population: 7,112,359 [2008]
Population Available: 3,353,936 [2008]
Fit for Military Service: 2,836,722 [2008]
Reaching Military Age Annually: 118,134 [2008]
Active Military Personnel: 187,000 [2008]
Active Military Reserve: 408,000 [2008]
Active Paramilitary Units: 8,050 [2008]

Originally posted by SUICIDEHK45
reply to post by illusive man

 

yeah, if they had SAMs they probably wouldn't have been shooting Flak at the Israeli planes

EVERY country ion that region has SAM's even iraq had them in 1991 so i THINK it's safe to assume that lebanon and the more advanced hezbollah have SAM's although what variation i am not sure.

Originally posted by Mdv2
No worries, you should start worrying if Hezbollah starts to use its equipment (SAMs). second line.

I totally agree, I would also add, if Hezbollah launch a scud at Tel Aviv or Haifa, you will see an unrefrained Israel for the first time since 'the six day war.'

This is something I really fear.


I have said before in other threads;

Israel's enemies bait it into international condemnation, using the very strength of Israel as its weakness.

Israel finds itself in an awkward position; damned if it does, damned if it doesn't.

If it does not respond with a 'heavy hand' it will encourage esculated aggression/invasion and if it does respond with a 'heavy hand' the arab media will exploit/spin the response for every last drop of international outrage, sympathy and condemnation.

There is a reason why the Arab-Israeli situation is far from easily solved as there really is no black and white but with the world buying into the arab brainwashing, pressure is mounting on Israel and I fear for the consequences.

I predict we will see alot of 'pokes' at Israel these next coming weeks as its Arab neighbours gain confidence from 'world sympathy'.

Dangerous times ahead.

reply to post by rationaluser


So if that's true,It would seem that they only used flak as a deterrent. Flak is definitively an outdated type of Anti air.I'm sure its very hard to hit a F16 without some sort of lock on system.

reply to post by ufoorbhunter


Er Arab states have offered to accept Israel on several occasions and that includes Hamas.

July 2007

The foreign ministers of Egypt and Jordan formally presented an Arab peace plan during a historic visit to Israel on Wednesday. The ministers arrived as representatives of the Arab League, the first time the 22-member group has sent a delegation to the Jewish state.

The League's peace plan envisions full recognition of Israel in return for withdrawal from lands captured in during the 1967 Middle East war.

Here's the crux of the issue though.

Israel has welcomed the plan as a basis for negotiations, but raised concerns about certain aspects. Israel rejects a full withdrawal from the West Bank and east Jerusalem. It also objects to the plan's apparent call for the return of Palestinians who became refugees in the 1948 Mideast war and their descendants.

www.npr.org...

Israel wants peace on it's terms only. It is not willing to sacrifice land that is not rightly theirs. Yes there's a country really intent on peace.

March 2002.

Meeting in Beirut, Lebanon, the 22-nation Arab League endorsed a seven-point peace initiative that recognized Israel's right to exist within the 1967 international borders recognized by the United Nations, in exchange for a set of conditions leading to an independent Palestinian state.

The initiative was put forth by Saudi Arabia and garnered unanimous approval, including from such hard-line countries as Libya and what was then Saddam Hussein's Iraq. Ironically, a day after the Arab League adopted the Beirut Declaration, Israeli tanks surrounded Yasser Arafat in his compound in Ramallah, in the Occupied West Bank, in retaliation for a suicide bombing and the on-going second intifada.

middleeast.about.com...

Also rejected as Israel felt it was in an overwhelmingly powerful position in the Middle East at this time.

Lets not # about here. Sucsessive Israeli administration have never been interested in real meaningful long-lasting peace since its creation in 1948.

Double Post.

[edit on 1-6-2010 by Peruvianmonk]

reply to post by Peruvianmonk


It seems all parties want 'peace' on their own terms mate.

And rightly so.

Originally posted by hawaiinguy12

Turkey Military Strength

PERSONNEL
Total Population: 71,892,808 [2008]
Population Available: 39,645,893 [2008]
Fit for Military Service: 33,444,999 [2008]
Reaching Military Age Annually: 1,298,979 [2008]
Active Military Personnel: 514,000 [2008]
Active Military Reserve: 380,000 [2008]
Active Paramilitary Units: 148,700 [2008]

VERSUS


Israel Military Strength

PERSONNEL
Total Population: 7,112,359 [2008]
Population Available: 3,353,936 [2008]
Fit for Military Service: 2,836,722 [2008]
Reaching Military Age Annually: 118,134 [2008]
Active Military Personnel: 187,000 [2008]
Active Military Reserve: 408,000 [2008]
Active Paramilitary Units: 8,050 [2008]

Taking your numbers a little further....

Turkey: Total Active Personnel: 1,042,700
Turkey Military Budget: $11,600,000,000
Turkey: Military spending per active personnel: $7,048

Israel: Total Active Personnel: 603,050
Israel: Military Budget: $11,000,000,000
Israel: Military spending per active personnel: $18,241

As in all other aspects of life, you get what you pay for. Israel would have a pretty lopsided victory against any of their nearby neighbors even on multiple fronts. Unless they face a superpower, they would be quite capable of standing on their own and it wouldn't be pretty for whoever they were facing.

I don't understand the anti-semitic overtone on ATS here. Where they are located, they are as welcome as a child molester in a maximum security prison. If they did not take extraordinary measures to maintain their well-being, they would have ceased to exist a long time ago.

You simply cannot make a comparison to any other relationship in the world, its apples and oranges if you do. The mid-east tension and pressure-cooker atmosphere is unique to them and only them so unless you live there, you really can't have a solid understanding of the state-of-being of either side. Both sides have valid reasoning to the current conflict. That being said, when all else is equal, there really have nothing to forecast future relations by other than historical data. History does not favor a decision to passively hope on everyone else's good intentions.

The reason they are still there is their preemptive approach to national security. If Israel were to completely disarm today, they would be off the map within months.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


what about all the jewish refugees the Israelis fly in?
is it one thing for one group but another for the other group.

I really doubt that Israel would ever use a nuke on Turkey or Lebanon even if they used SCUD missiles on Israel because of the fallout repercussion. It is obvious that they do not care about Geo-political viewpoints.

Originally posted by Skellon

Originally posted by Mdv2
No worries, you should start worrying if Hezbollah starts to use its equipment (SAMs). second line.

I totally agree, I would also add, if Hezbollah launch a scud at Tel Aviv or Haifa, you will see an unrefrained Israel for the first time since 'the six day war.'

This is something I really fear.


I have said before in other threads;

Israel's enemies bait it into international condemnation, using the very strength of Israel as its weakness.

Israel finds itself in an awkward position; damned if it does, damned if it doesn't.

If it does not respond with a 'heavy hand' it will encourage esculated aggression/invasion and if it does respond with a 'heavy hand' the arab media will exploit/spin the response for every last drop of international outrage, sympathy and condemnation.

There is a reason why the Arab-Israeli situation is far from easily solved as there really is no black and white but with the world buying into the arab brainwashing, pressure is mounting on Israel and I fear for the consequences.

I predict we will see alot of 'pokes' at Israel these next coming weeks as its Arab neighbours gain confidence from 'world sympathy'.

yeah the rest of the world is playing the world's smallest violin for israel "poor israel all they have is the most technologically advanced weaponry in the middle east, the trophy system to keep out rockets and the mighty aggressors that are the Palestinian terrorists whose arsenal include Molotov's and ak-47's" Poor Poor israhell


[edit on 1-6-2010 by rationaluser]

[edit on 1-6-2010 by rationaluser]

reply to post by illusive man


In 1948 Israel was established as Jewish national home. Palestine was supposed to be second (after Jordan) Palestinian national home but someone other there decided that one Jewish country is one too many. And lost. I am sure you know the history.
So just as Jews in West bank and Gaza are not exactly flown in but rather evicted out- you know, due to it being Palestinian land, at least no one is evicted on the other side of the border.
By the way, i think that refugees should receive full financial compensation.

reply to post by BuffaloJoe



I really welcome your post.

You are one of the first members on ATS that I agree with on this subject.

Most are either brainwashed by the Arab spin on seizing an opportunity from a crisis or fail in doing their homework on the history of this complex conflict.

Star and Friend.

reply to post by Skellon


But if you get offered full and comprehensive peace by the many nations that surround you nations that have called for your destruction, why would you not take them up on their offer? With Israel's stupendous military capability, why would you not take this opportunity to double, triple the safety of the future of your nation?

Israel is not interested in peace. It is an expansionist nation. It was built on colonialism. Chaim Weizmann, the leader of the Zionist Organisation during the British Mandate in Palestine, was very upset when the British refused to allow the Zionists to colonise Jordon (Transjordon then). The Zionists have always craved a greater Israel taking in Jordon and parts of Syria.

Of course nations want peace on their own terms. But in the real world you have to comprimise with unbeaten enemies if you truly want peace.

What are the chances that Israel flying over Lebanon today is going to start WW3? Id say slim to NEVER!! This is reported at least once a week.

Originally posted by SUICIDEHK45
What are the chances that this will start WW3?

They have been at each other's throats forever

Everybody start packing their bug out bags

Well its a pity that Israel violates another nations airspace. They should have been shot down.