Our Founding Fathers were Christians, Prove me wrong. You Can't.

reply to post by catwhoknows


The people on the OP's list were brainwashed? Huh? Don't think so.

And you're the freethinking right?

Let me know when you found a country greater than America, dude.

Originally posted by AProphet1233
Why are the atheists here so self-conscious?

The fact is the founding fathers were christians.

Pick your battles elsewhere fools.

How many Christians today claim to be Christians but by there behaviors they portray something else? People can pretend to be religious to please the masses but actually have something entirely different going on in their closets. Look at politicians today

I'm not going to argue whether or not the founding fathers were truly Christians because that was over a few hundred years ago. However, there is enough evidence to support that some were Deists. Now what they really believed and what they portrayed to the public is anyone's guess.

And by the way, I'm not an Atheist.

reply to post by taccj9903


You're right, I agree they could have submitted to the moniker.

It was still no attack on their integrity though to be publicly known as Christians or Deists.

That some atheists constantly call Religion and Ignorance synonyomous is silly.

reply to post by MrXYZ


Oh quit putting words in peoples mouths.

Here is the ENTIRETY of the OP-

What is really nice about these guys is that they knew there would be other religions involved in this great country and they gave them their rights to right along with those who did not have any beliefs. So the big question is why try to undo or deny what the founding fathers created.

YOU SIR ARE A LIAR!

How does that work for you?

For someone that denigrates Christianity or any religious entity, it seems you will do anything to further your agenda.

Notice what the OP states, I guess you have to destroy all religion to further your ends, huh?

Almost hypocritical huh? You have to destroy religion yet the religious will defend your position.

I see your hypocrisy, so do others. Go denigrate something else you hate.

Or is it religion that you hate? Is it yourself? Do you have an overwhelming guilt of something? Maybe you tell us all why you are this way.

reply to post by endisnighe

So the big question is why try to undo or deny what the founding fathers created.

Sounds to me like he's arguing we should stick more to Christian values! The constitution specifically states that this shouldn't be the case. Religion and state should be separated as they were intended to be!

And nope, don't feel any guilt, and I'm a pretty happy guy...thx for asking though

I love how the questions you asked me have nothing to do with the thread. Kinda reminds me of this:

reply to post by Southern Guardian


No, sorry SG. Let me see, every anti religious atheist in the government can spout their rhetoric, yet someone (even a school teacher or LEO) say anything religious, the separation of Church and state junkies jump out of the woodwork.


NOTICE THE FIRST AMENDMENT-

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

It plainly states, that CONGRESS shall make no law RESPECTING an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the FREE EXERCISE thereof; or ABRIDGING the FREEDOM of speech, or of the PRESS.

Does this mean that because someone in Government talks about religion that CONGRESS passed a damn law?

Sorry, if a government official can talk about their ATHEISTIC ideals in government, the same thing can be said of religious ideals. OR NOT?

You tell me. Who is allowed to speak? WELL!?

reply to post by endisnighe


Both have the right of free speech. The difference is that atheists (or agnostics) base their statements on FACTS, while a lot of the fundies use nothing that comes even close to logic or rationality. The fact that they called microchips "the mark of the devil" is a good example of that...their argument isn't logical, it's uneducated and stupid. So no, they shouldn't be allowed to put their belief in microchips into law because their belief is RETARDED in this case.

Having said that, some ideas are fine...like "thou shall not kill". It's logical and a total no brainer, and I have no problem with putting it into law because it MAKES SENSE. But if it doesn't make sense, it shouldn't be allowed...simple as that!

Someones religious views should have no pull in the government.

Which is why it matters not what religion was of the founding fathers. Its pretty easy to see why alot of them were of the beliefs they were of...look where they came from, what they were raised under, ect.

What ever religion they were of, they were wise enough to see there was no need to try to make anyone else of their own beliefs.

The laws were based on a freedom...not a ball and chain to a belief. For some reason the OP believes that since alot of them were Christian...it means that Christianity is a 'chosen' faith that is proven 'good' and we should all become 'Christians' ? IDK...I guess that was the OP's point...

Im thankful the founders did not push their belief down my throat or but it in our laws that we must follow their faith. They created a place we can have freedom in faith and belief...or ignore beliefs all together...this is what they created, it is a good thing....and we should not try to change it. It seems the OP is trying to take something and twist the founding fathers intentions for this land they came to. They might of been proud of their faiths and that is fine, they were big enough to know they could not or needed not to push their ideas of faith onto others.



[edit on 31-5-2010 by LeoVirgo]

reply to post by MrXYZ


Well, logically speaking and from FACTS that you seem to rely on so well.

There is no way I am getting chipped. And there are A LOT of atheists that back my position on that issue, sorry to tell you.

As for people that believe that they can legislate morals, THAT IS THE PURPOSE of the first Amendment. To PREVENT such things.

For your info, I do not believe in abortion except for rape, incest or the life or health of the mother. That being said, I do not call for a law that prevents abortion. I also back any and all religious folk to speak their minds on this.

Sorry to tell you this, but there are MANY out there that feel this way. I will pray for those souls but I would not force anyone to my beliefs.

So maybe instead of LYING, you should actually use logic and reasoning instead of your standard LYING.

reply to post by endisnighe


You call me a liar, yet fail miserably at pointing out where I lied...

reply to post by MrXYZ


Please, from your post here-

post by MrXYZ

Here is your post

If you read the OP correctly, you'll realize that he argues for incorporating Christian values into politics. They DON'T belong there according to the 1st amendment and the separation of church and state. The OP claims to be a patriot, but by saying religion should play a bigger role, he's spitting on the constitution!!

Here is the OP

Alot of people still want to make the claim that our Nation wasn't founded on Christian Principle's. well after looking at these list I sort of doubt that.

What is really nice about these guys is that they knew there would be other religions involved in this great country and they gave them their rights to right along with those who did not have any beliefs. So the big question is why try to undo or deny what the founding fathers created.

You know, when someone wants to show what someone said, they usually quote them. They tend not to when they want to lie.

So tell me, where did the OP state that he wanted to incorporate Christian beliefs into politics? For YOUR info, the separation of Church and State IS NOT in the Constitution. Where did the OP claim to be a patriot in the OP?

As for the spitting on the Constitution, you are just using hyperbole and lies to foment your postulation.

So, tell me..........WHERE DID YOU NOT LIE in this comment?

reply to post by endisnighe


The BIG question the OP asked was this:

So the big question is why try to undo or deny what the founding fathers created.

He stated that our funding fathers were Christian, his last (and I quote: BIG) question was why we aren't basing more thins in the US on Christian principles. How else would you interprete his last question?

I agrued that this shouldn't be the case, and whatever laws/policies we come up with should be based on LOGIC and RATIONALITY...and NOT Christian values just for the sake of them being Christian and because our founding fathers were supposedly Christians.

That's NOT a lie, it's a statement that's backed by the constitution. Furthermore, if you check out the OP's last few posts, they're nothing but a hate tirade against atheists...which futher nurtures the suspision that he wants more Christian influences in today's society. I am AGAINST that if that influence isn't based on logic and rationality.

Everyone in this thread deserves to stand in the corner with a dunce cap on their skull for a couple hours while the rest of the class points and laughs at them.




I've noticed people in general like to make a situation some sort of false dichotomy, saying it was either this or it was either that.

This was not the case. It was never the case. Black and white don't exist on their own, they exist as two sides of the same coin.


It is a FACT that a majority of the founding fathers were Christians to some degree or another. This is undeniable. And they all belonged to churches, even though this doesn't exactly make them hard boned Christian.

It is also a FACT that America was never and has never been any sort of "Christian" nation. Even if it was founded by a bunch of Christians. I can prove this by mentioning a founding father not mentioned by the OP, which explains many of the quotes in this thread and finally proves that this nation is not some sort of Christian theocratic nation.


Thomas Paine. Heard of him? Look him up. Amongst all of the founding fathers he was likely the most important one who was in no way a politician and held no office. His significance comes from the fact that his ideas and beliefs are pretty much the basis for this country.

Paine was a Deist. He was not in anyway a Christian like how the OP likes to make out say Jefferson or Franklin as Christians, considering they were both staunch Deists as well even though they belonged to a church. In fact, Paine went to JAIL in FRANCE for a book he wrote that more or less utterly tore apart Christianity. So, Paine is by no means a friend of Christianity. He was by all means a Deist.

Paine was also a strong supporter of a concept known as Natural Law; Natural Law is an ethical theory. And Natural Law is more or less what our country is founded on. Natural law is the concept that all men are created equal and are granted by their maker certain rights that no man has the authority or ability to truly strip away. While Natural Law started with Thomas Aquinas and has strong Christian roots, by the time of Paine Natural Law evolved from a concept with Christians roots to a, more or less, secular ethical theory.

EVERY founding father was a strong supporter of Natural Law. And this Natural Law that America follows is very similar to the Natural Law concept that Paine developed. In fact, if you see a founding father talking about "the lord" or "god" I can guarantee the context, regardless of which founding father, is in the natural law context. Not a religious context, but an ethical context.

So America in a way is founded on Christian concepts, due to the concept of Natural Law. The Natural Law that exists in this nation though is not of a strictly Christian form but of a Deist sort, and even then one can argue it isn't even a Deist sort but of a strict secular sorts.

So we're a nation, founded by Christians and Deists, and our principles are also of a Deist sort with a tradition going back to some Christian concepts.


Essentially, everyone in this thread was both wrong and right because you're both wrong and right. Yes, this is not a Christian nation. No, this is not a nation founded mostly by Deists. It was in fact founded mostly by Christians but Christians who believed in an ethical theory that was strongly Deistic/Secular in nature.

You're all dismissed. Homework is due on Friday.

reply to post by AProphet1233

The fact is the founding fathers were christians. Pick your battles elsewhere fools.

I don't think anyone here is directly contradicting the fact that they were, at least outwardly, Christians. Loken got that part right, most of the founding Fathers attended Christians churches and professed Christian faith BUT that clearly did not translate into America being founded on Christian principles.

Anyone who reads the Constitution would be hard pressed to find the influence of the Bible and Christianity anywhere in that document.

The Bible makes some absurd and horrifying moral declarations (I won't repeat them here, see my original posts) and is NOT the basis for America.

So the assertion that they were Christian is what the OP wants proven wrong, well we can't, they were Christian BUT the assertion that the United States was built on Christian principles is patently false. It is clear that the Founders used all the wisdom at their disposal and didn't do much borrowing from ANY religion let alone Christianity. The fact that they wanted Church and State separate should make this fact quite obvious.

The natives were not Christian. The religion was forced on them by Europeans. The founding fathers were Europeans that held Christian religious beliefs but it was the pagan natives' beliefs that defined our constitution... look it up.

reply to post by Loken68


Yes I can prove that they were not Christians because they were Deists.

There is a huge difference.


Link

The Deist Roots of the United States of America


What is it that filled the souls of many of America's founders with such passionate altruism that they were willing to risk everything they had, including their families, careers, and very lives, for an ideal? Was it their strong convictions in the teachings of Christianity and the Bible? Or was it something else?

DEISM

People like Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and Benjamin Franklin were avid readers of the great philosophers of the European Enlightenment. They treasured the ideas found in the works of such thinkers as Descartes, Voltaire, Bacon and Locke.

I would study Enlightenment philosophy and philosophers.

Link

Of The Religion of Deism Compared With the Christian Religion by Thomas Paine

when the divine gift of reason begins to expand itself in the mind and calls man to reflection, he then reads and contemplates God and His works, and not in the books pretending to be revelation. The creation is the Bible of the true believer in God. Everything in this vast volume inspires him with sublime ideas of the Creator. The little and paltry, and often obscene, tales of the Bible sink into wretchedness when put in comparison with this mighty work.

The Deist needs none of those tricks and shows called miracles to confirm his faith, for what can be a greater miracle than the creation itself, and his own existence?

Hardly Christian.



[edit on 5/31/2010 by dalan.]

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by Loken68

 

What moral code do you follow? The founders gave you the right to bash them and bash their religion you do. I have no respect for those that bite the hand that feeds them.

Actually, that statement is not entirely accurate. Our founding fathers did not "give" us our rights. Instead they merely pointed out the obvious:

Link

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

So you can clearly see that they did not give us anything, we are actually endowed by the God of Nature or our own subjective Creator with certain unalienable rights.

Link

en·dow (n-dou)
tr.v. en·dowed, en·dow·ing, en·dows
1. To provide with property, income, or a source of income.
2.
a. To equip or supply with a talent or quality: Nature endowed you with a beautiful singing voice.
b. To imagine as having a usually favorable trait or quality: endowed the family pet with human intelligence.

Its a natural law philosophy. Natural Law being any code or form of governance handed down from a higher authority (typically a creator) to a sovereign chosen to wield that authority. It just so happens that in the American republic We the People are that Sovereign authority.


[edit on 5/31/2010 by dalan.]

reply to post by Loken68


What is more intriguing in the list is how many of them where educated in Christian Colleges including that number which we know where Diests, is the amount of them that were Pastors in thier churches.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by AProphet1233

 

The fact is the founding fathers were christians. Pick your battles elsewhere fools.

I don't think anyone here is directly contradicting the fact that they were, at least outwardly, Christians. Loken got that part right, most of the founding Fathers attended Christians churches and professed Christian faith BUT that clearly did not translate into America being founded on Christian principles.

Anyone who reads the Constitution would be hard pressed to find the influence of the Bible and Christianity anywhere in that document.

The Bible makes some absurd and horrifying moral declarations (I won't repeat them here, see my original posts) and is NOT the basis for America.

So the assertion that they were Christian is what the OP wants proven wrong, well we can't, they were Christian BUT the assertion that the United States was built on Christian principles is patently false. It is clear that the Founders used all the wisdom at their disposal and didn't do much borrowing from ANY religion let alone Christianity. The fact that they wanted Church and State separate should make this fact quite obvious.

Well put,
and I agree.

James Madison penned the First Amendment:

Source

Here are his thoughts on that Amendment:

Link

Madison's summary of the First Amendment:

Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform (Annals of Congress, Sat Aug 15th, 1789 pages 730 - 731).