warning this can offend law abiding citizens - Which I'm not one of.

reply to post by K J Gunderson

Still looking for any post where I mentioned the first amendment? It is no fun when people toss your stones back into your glass house, is it?

Is talking about yourself all you are going to do for the remainder of this thread? Do you not get enough attention at home? If you are for the rights of all people then say so, if not then admit it and stop trying to make this thread about you.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

Still looking for any post where I mentioned the first amendment? It is no fun when people toss your stones back into your glass house, is it?

Is talking about yourself all you are going to do for the remainder of this thread? Do you not get enough attention at home? If you are for the rights of all people then say so, if not then admit it and stop trying to make this thread about you.

You began by making up stuff ABOUT ME. What is lacking in your life that you need to lie about mine? I do far more than just talk about me in this thread but as far as you are concerned...

...sorry but I just want you to man up and stand behind your claims. You specifically stated I said many things.

Either you are mistaken or a liar. It is that simple. Now I see you whining that other people are twisting your words? LOL!!!!! TOO FUNNY!

You made a specific claim about me. Why can you not just back it up?

Wow, you guys are still at this...26 pages later....

Seeing that some of you cannot grasp the simple elements of the first amendment- Let me explain this from personal point of view, and real past circumstances.

When I was in primary school (from the age of 7-13) I was brought up as a Jehovah's Witness, which I no longer am a part of since I developed an adult mind of my own.

At school, it was against my religion to sing the national anthem, the school anthem & to be present during prayer in assembly or to attend bible study in class.

Another girl in my class was also a Jehovah's witness and another couple of kids in the school.

During assembly and bible study during first period- We had to sit outside class or outside the hall. Everyone would look at us funny and laugh at us, and tell us that we are going to hell because we don't believe in Jesus, which is far from the case. Even the teachers treated us differently.

Do you have any idea how this makes a child feel? You are either forced to disrespect your religion/God by staying in assembly and then lie to your parents about it. Or, you leave assembly and bible study class and receive flack from students and teachers.

When I was in high school, they stopped teaching bible class in the middle of the year- but some teachers still allowed kids to sit and read the bible anyway if they chose to do so.

We never stopped singing the school anthem or praying in assembly- So I would just stand there and not close my eyes and not not sing. We also had to sing religious songs in assembly which I could not part take in-

I'm glad they have stopped this, in the US at least. I think it should be implemented in every country.... If people want to worship they can do it at home or go to church.

reply to post by jinx880101

Exactly the point I was trying to make. Bravo to you for having courage to share your story. Freedom is good until it tramples another's voice. I too remember the Jehovah's Witnesses leaving class during prayer, hymnals cartoons, national anthem etc. The other students at the time thought they were weird. I'm very happy that is being done away with as well.

reply to post by K J Gunderson


*Sigh*

Aiight. Here's the deal. I've said I'm not jumping through hoops on command, and that's just what I meant. Every time I turn around, you're insisting that I go find this, or that, including both your posts, AND my own.

Not gonna do it.

Perhaps you've noticed this thread has grown fairly rapidly, and it's up to 20 something pages now. Not gonna do it. One, or two, I could see, and I did so. Not gonna keep chasing the ball.

SO

1) You can call me a liar.

or

2) You can say I made a mistake.

or

3) You can say it's all a matter of perception or opinion. We definitely differ there!

or

4) You're welcome to come up with your own explanation, and ignore any of the suggestions I made.

I really don't care which it is. I really don't. Your choice, entirely. You can come up with the wildest thing you can imagine, preach me into hell, or gehannum, or tir na nog, or wherever it is Satanists preach bad, bad, folks into. (I've not brushed up on the works of Anton La Vey, and don't really know. Do Satanists send bad people to heaven? I really haven't a clue.)

Whatever choice you make, I am NOT gonna chase that ball. Based on the post I referenced at the head of this post, I'm pretty confident which way you'll choose.

So, make your choice, and find your peace, friend. It's wide open.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

So let me see how this works....

You said you think homosexuals should be allowed to put on a live sex show before each game, right? You said that Christians all lose their virginity to sheep, right? How dare you say such things.

Now THAT'S funny!

Due to some unforseen circumstances, I've been up for nearly 3 days straight now. Now that the excitement is over a few minute ago, I may fall right over asleep right where I sit, so you've got free rein. Be well.

reply to post by K J Gunderson

Amazing Satanists can show that much respect but this "Christian" principal could not.

This was your first snide remark directed at Christian's, or at the very least, that principal and his Christian faith.

So you are admitting you feel Christianity is ok to interject in PUBLIC SCHOOLS on my AMERICAN TAX DOLLAR but not any other religions that are common in this country? Is that really what you are saying?

This is your first blatant lie.

If you get to take time at a public event paid for with my tax dollars to talk to everyone in the audience about Jesus, do my friends and I also get that right or is it only ok for Christians to take the mic and tell everyone in the audience what they should believe?

This is your next blatant lie, that principal never did any such thing.

We simply ask for the same time and attention you receive. I have lots more friends of lots of different religions so it might take a while before the game starts. Fair though, right?

You claim this is fair because:

If you get to take time at a public event paid for with my tax dollars to talk to everyone in the audience about Jesus, do my friends and I also get that right or is it only ok for Christians to take the mic and tell everyone in the audience what they should believe?

And then you feign confusion with this:

When did I reveal my true colors as a tyrant? I simple asked if my friends and I can enjoy the same freedom AS YOU. How is that tyrannical?

Your tyranny lies in your "taxpayer" status that you laud over those who disagree with you arguing that events should go how you dictate simply because you pay taxes. Here's an idea, why not become a principal of a school yourself and do precisely what you are asking permission from people in this thread to do, and knock yourself out, and try to get all the attention you want. It would certainly be your right to do so, and I see nothing about you using a PA system to invite people to pray in Satanist way, what ever that is, as hurting others, so why not? However, your demands that if a principal says things you don't like and then everyone who disagrees should be able to get up and rebut his statements simply because you pay taxes, is a form of tyranny, and an obsequious one at that.

Show me which words you want me to look at again? Nothing I like better than a Christian who has to make stuff up to prove the righteousness of their god.

Your next snide remark about Christians.

They are mutually exclusive. How do you not understand that? I can pray all day at home by myself. When you decide to go to a public school and make everyone there listen to your prayer, that is quite different.

This is your clear advocacy of tyranny, where you dictate when and where other people can worship "freely".

Let's really be honest here. I never claimed to be fighting for any freedom but what it comes down to is the freedom to choose when and where to tell my children what to think about condoms and homosexuality. You do not have the right to usurp my position as parent to instill religious or sexual values in my children.

I have never advocated coming into your home and dictating how you teach your children, nor have I advocated such programs be taught in public schools. Certainly the principal has a problem with these programs being taught in public schools, and certainly you have a problem with the principal saying so over a PA system at a game, so it can only be presumed that you are advocating these things be taught in a public school, and you are doing so insisting that only your beliefs matter and if other parents disagree, that is tough. This is why I keep insisting let's just get rid of public schools and end this stupid debate.

Tell you what. I am going to just stop right here.

Clearly a lie.

I have not put any words in your mouth.

You most certainly had, and your insistence as framing me as a Christian was just one example.

Is that what Jesus would do?

Yet another example.

I refuse to sit here and keep typing "That is not what I said - quote me" over and over and over and over again.

Think you can have an HONEST discussion or would that be too much to ask when discussing your Christian values?

Christian values I never claimed to have and just another example of you putting words in my mouth, while taking a swipe at Christians.

Seriously, if you are going to tell me what I said, quote me and then tell me how you think it says that.

I refer you to the quote above.

I hope we can have a productive and honest discussion about your god but if you are not willing to be honest, I understand.

You are not at all willing to have an honest discussion about it, you never even asked me what my views on God were.

Face it, you are wrong or a liar and cannot quote me saying any of what you said BECAUSE I DID NOT SAY SUCH THINGS.

So basically, you are a liar for Jesus?

You make up things to defend Christianity?

You think that by making up things I said and then telling me that the truth is not important enough to quote, Jesus will be honored? Really? I am looking through the bible and I am having a hard time finding where anyone said you should lie in the name of your god.

You are continually attempting to bait me with this whole Jesus and Christian thing, based upon your presumptions. I never came in here as a defender of Jesus, not even God, only the right to worship however one saw fit, and I extended that same courtesy to you, and defended your right to be a Satanist. Your baiting suggest you are only interested in bashing other religions you don't agree with.

You just completely made up pretty much everything in your last response to me and this is about your Christianity?

More presumptions and putting words in my mouth.

Enjoy telling lies for Jesus. If you ever feel like being honest and responding to words actually written down, get back to me.

As ridiculous as this is, this is what I am now doing because you can't seem to post anything else and keep insisting on talking about yourself. I doubt this will put an end to that, but perhaps it will get you to just finally move on and stay on the topic of the thread, instead of screaming for attention as a victim.

Sorry but no. I am not reading or responding to your posts until you go back and find some quotes of me saying ANY of the things you claim I said.

More of that special brand of honesty you preach?

Until then, you are a willful liar and as fun as that might be to play with, having a discussion about your Christianity just seems stupid with you lying on your half.

You can't have a discussion about "(my) Christianity" because I am not a Christian. How dense can you be?

I will say it once more and then if you refuse I can just put you on ignore, ok?

I encouraged you to do so, but did you? Of course not. You are not interested in being honest, and your empty promises are wearisome.

Either quote me saying the things you claimed I said or retract your claims.

Here are the quotes, and you will not be getting any retraction from me.

If you could admit you were wrong and realize I never said the things you claim I said, I would be willing to engage. If you could prove I said them, same thing.

Only problem is you keep engaging me, Mr. honesty.

Any other response is going to be ignored the same as this one.

You are making stuff up to win an argument in the name of Jesus.

This is all that has mattered to you in this thread, is to attack those who believe in Jesus as their personal savior, and I am not one of those people. I admire his teachings, as I do the Buddha and the Tao and other teachings, but I am not a mystic. But you will keep bashing Jesus won't you?

These are just the quotes from one page of three pages of your incessant crying and whining and demanding I quote you. I have now done so, and what do you want to bet you just keep demanding more? Give a tyrant an inch and they want it all.

I don't see the problem with a Christian nation praying as they see fit. In Iraq and every other Muslim country during Ramadan, they start praying and singing on a loud speaker about 2 am and don't stop until the sun comes up. They are not worried about offending any other religion so why are we? If a person of a different religion wants to pray at a public event everyone should be allowed to and no religious freedoms should be suppressed. This is the only country I have been in where they curtail their beliefs for foreign religions. Also, for the uneducated, there is no such law as the "separation of church and state". The Constitution states that there will be no state church as the Church of England had in the 1700's. This means that the state should stay out of all religions and religious activity. Banning or limiting any religious activity is the government overstepping it's authority once again. Just like they are not suppose to be involved in health care or any other private corporate activity. Read the 10th Amendment.

reply to post by jinx880101


When I was a kid, my best friend was a Jehovah's Witness. He never left the room when we had things going on that was against his religion. Instead, he'd just stand there, like a stone statue. He wasn't backing down or running away for ANYBODY. The school didn't put him out of the room, or anything like that. They let him make his own choice in the matter, and that's the choice he made. Now, personally I admired that in him, and told him so. As it turns out, I'm glad I let him know then, because he drowned when we were 12.

yet now, in a sense, he's still alive today. I've never forgotten him, and seeing his tenacity, and the courage of his convictions, is part of what into making me who I am today. So there is some part of him still around.

He never bitched, he never moaned, and bore everything with a fortitude I've not seen in many, and at times he bore it with sheer boredom. But he bore it, and never, ever asked for any sort of special treatment. Never insisted that The majority bow to his minority.

Because of that, I doubt like hell that I ever will either. That's why I have no problem with Muslims praying, Wiccans praying, Satanists praying, Christians praying, or anyone else. I learned way back then that nothing they prayed would hurt me in the least, would never affect my core.

Probably also a good part of why I don't understand why people have to whine so, and try to curtail the free expression of others.

What is it they're so afraid of?

Originally posted by drdalev
I don't see the problem with a Christian nation praying as they see fit.

I have no problem with that either. I live in the United States though and it is a secular country. If Christians want to pray, they have the right to. If they want to use a public event to tell a captive audience about their prayers, that is a different story. This is not a Christian Nation.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

Amazing Satanists can show that much respect but this "Christian" principal could not.

This was your first snide remark directed at Christian's, or at the very least, that principal and his Christian faith.

WHERE IS THE QUOTE OF ME TALKING ABOUT THE FIRST AMENDMENT??!?!?!?!?!?!?!

THAT IS THE ONLY THING I WANT TO READ FROM YOU ASIDE FROM A RETRACTION OF THE CLAIM

I am not sure why you think I am going to acknowledge any of what you are trying to argue while a blatant lie about me told by you still hangs there.

FIX THAT IF YOU WANT ANY CREDIBILITY WITH ME OR STOP TRYING ALTOGETHER!!!!!!!




[edit on 27-5-2010 by K J Gunderson]

Originally posted by nenothtu
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

*Sigh*

Aiight. Here's the deal. I've said I'm not jumping through hoops on command, and that's just what I meant. Every time I turn around, you're insisting that I go find this, or that, including both your posts, AND my own.

NOPE. That is a lie as well. Apparently that is the only hook you got. I never asked you to jump through any hoops. I am not asking you to find this, that, or the other thing.

I simply asked you to back up your claim about me.

Sigh all you want. Obviously you think you can just make claims about people. Fine. Since you said you were in love with a sheep earlier, I know I do not need to find the quote of you saying it.

What is good for the goose, right?

I ASKED YOU TO PROVE YOUR CLAIM ABOUT ME.

THAT IS ALL I ASKED.

YOU CAN NOT BACK UP YOUR CLAIM SO YOU ARGUE ABOUT HOOPS. LAME.

You honestly do not expect to have to back up claims about other people? What about when you said that all Chrisians were pedophiles? What about when you claimed that all Christians secretly worship the penis? Such bad things you claimed.

reply to post by nenothtu


I hope you are not implying that I'm bitching and moaning.... I'm giving you an example of how this affects the lives of young children. I would not dare stand and pray 'in the name of Jesus' in front of Muslim children/ Hindu children, that attend public school because private schools are so expensive. A public school is just that- public- and it should be neutral- Not one religion above all others.

I also never complained back then- I wouldn't dare...The way people treated us was enough to put one off Christianity for life.

I am not trying to stop others from praying to whatever God they choose- I just wish that Christianity would have respect for people of other cultures and religions. The same respect that is given unto them.

By the way - I am agnostic- So it really doesn't phase me anymore.
I just want to see others respected and things like these being dealt with in a more neutral manner. I am not trying to sway anybody my way. I am free of that- I have no ties to religion, so I do not have a religious agenda.

I am just speaking from past experience- and how it felt at the time. So, I can sympathize with others whether they be Muslim or whatever that won't stand up and say something about it. That doesn't make it bitching.

I have always been the type of person to stand up and say what others are bitching about behind the scenes, but are too afraid to actually speak their mind. If that makes me a bad person in your eyes, fine...I'm not going to apologize though. I have accepted that some people just don't want to hear certain things- because it cuts deep. And they will beat around the bush for ages.



[edit on 21/04/10 by jinx880101]

reply to post by K J Gunderson


You are wasting your time- Just give it up... It's been 27 pages and you still haven't gotten anywhere. You want to go another 27 pages, and still be on the same argument?

Gotta pick your battles- this is one of religion, you should know better- what did you expect to achieve?

I don't know about you, but I'm done here.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

Amazing Satanists can show that much respect but this "Christian" principal could not.

This was your first snide remark directed at Christian's, or at the very least, that principal and his Christian faith.

I do feel the need to help you out here because I see where you are going and when you take a wrong step first, all others follow suit.

Do you know what it means to put "Christian" in quotes in that sentence? Do you understand anything about grammar?

That is quite clearly a statement that this principal is no real Christian. What he did was not a Christian act and so his Christian faith is little more than lip service.

THAT IS A DEFENSE OF REAL CHRISTIANITY.

You really are not all the quick, are ya?

Anyway, find that quote you claim I made and perhaps we can actually address something real. Or maybe you can just admit I never said it. Either or. In the meantime, brush up on your English and reading comprehension so you do not look so silly pretending I attacked Christianity by showing an example of me doing THE EXACT OPPOSITE. Nice one !!!!

Originally posted by jinx880101
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

You are wasting your time- Just give it up... It's been 27 pages and you still haven't gotten anywhere. You want to go another 27 pages, and still be on the same argument?

Gotta pick your battles- this is one of religion, you should know better- what did you expect to achieve?

I don't know about you, but I'm done here.

I keep clicking on the front page and the same boring threads are there. I guess I figure that watching these guys squirm when asked to back up things they say is more entertaining then browsing the same boring thread titles over and over again.

Not that you are wrong. You are absolutely correct. Just ATS is kinda slow lately and I guess this is what that leads to. LOL.

I just cannot help but be entertained by religious types using lies and deceit to try and defend a religion where lying is one of the top ten rules. Most of what they said can easily be chalked up to misinterpretation and just differing views on what was actually posted but they had to go and get specific. Claiming I am clinging to the first amendment to make my argument is pretty specific considering I never even brought it up.

To me, the fact that a poster will tell me I said something I never said and then spend pages defending their reason for not going back and looking for it or retracting it is more entertaining that what keeps popping up on the front page right now.

reply to post by K J Gunderson


I could care less whether I have credibility with you or not! You have no credibility with me!! This is the last time I will ever respond to you, I am now placing you on ignore, and I will continue to argue in the defense of the rights of all people, and that includes the principal mentioned in the O.P. which is what this thread is about, not you!!!

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Then go make up quotes about the principal and all will be fine.

Funny how you make me a target, lie about me, then argue with me about proving it and then blame me for talking about me. LOL. The next best thing to admitting you were wrong is hiding. See ya!

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Yes, the all empowering victimization card.

Some of the people think that freedom is just another word.

Some think that the government has to enforce equal rights by taking the very rights that are not theirs to take.

Keep up the good fight and don't let false victims get you down.

Their whole point is that because people do not believe in what they espouse, therefore no one should have the right to say anything. The ol false victim dichotomy.

Everyone that has read the thread with an open mind and heart sees the truth.

The truth is a fire and it will burn all falsehoods away.

Excellent work JPZ.

reply to post by endisnighe


Thank you for your kind words of encouragement, endisnighe, and thank you for your tireless efforts in the name of freedom, and protections of rights. They can blow out the candle but they can't put out the fire.

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

Yes, the all empowering victimization card.

Some of the people think that freedom is just another word.

Some think that the government has to enforce equal rights by taking the very rights that are not theirs to take.

Keep up the good fight and don't let false victims get you down.

Their whole point is that because people do not believe in what they espouse, therefore no one should have the right to say anything. The ol false victim dichotomy.

Everyone that has read the thread with an open mind and heart sees the truth.

The truth is a fire and it will burn all falsehoods away.

Excellent work JPZ.

Actually, my whole point is that if you claim I said something I know I never said, YOU BETTER BE WILLING TO PROVE IT OR ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG.

Why is being honest such a complicated subject to the point you can even justify lying about what someone said in order to prove you are righteous? What a freakin' joke the "Christians" in this thread are.

The dude makes up something and claims I said it.

I call him out on it.

He weasels around it.

You tell him to keep up the good fight.

LMAO!!!!!!!