Americans Are No Better Than Mexicans

reply to post by JohnnyElohim

"Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of creative altruism or in the darkness of destructive selfishness." ~Martin Luther King Jr.

I guess you don't really believe in the comment on your "signature" made by a great AMERICAN. In YOUR words, he did NOTHING to improve this country. Why not REMOVE your signature, and replace it with something like "America sucks". It is more in keeping with your sick attitude.

Originally posted by JohnnyElohim

The fortune of the United States can be traced to it's origins as a land occupied by nearly unarmed natives who were deceived, exploited, and attacked with biological warfare and overwhelming military superiority with the simple goal of taking what they had. Once it was taken, the seeds of United States superiority were planted and fertilized with the blood of over a million slaughtered and largely innocent people.

Unarmed.....save for the thousands of rifles the French and English gave them....not to mention iron tomahawks.

Many more white europeans died in this country in the first two hundred years from smallpox and yellow fever than anyone. They just kept comming from an endless supply.

None the less some of your points are taken.

But I could just as well say that what happend in most of this country is really none of the Mexicans business to talk about. Let them toss all the light skins out of thier own country.....oh but that isnt what this is really about...its about a land of plenty up for grabs baced on some modern marxist model of guilt/redistribution/historical interpretation. Even if this case were so the Mexican are last in line to make a claim. In fact at this point they have less grounds than anyone to make claims and demands.

I'm with Slayer... aside from the fact that Mexicans are no better than Americans who are no better than Canadians who are no better than Polynesians and so on, and so forth...

I think I can some up my thoughts on the rest of your post with this; you're one of these people that wants to ban dodgeball in elementary school because it teaches the strong to pick on the weak, aren'tcha?

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
Mexicans are Americans

Mexico is a part of the continent known as North America. Thus, Mexicans are Americans. In terms of who is better between nations, such a distinction is largely irrelevant, and the obvious baiting this thread hopes to accomplish is pointless, and adds nothing towards offering a path towards peace and prosperity. Attempting to shame the people of The United States of America for past misdeeds, while willfully ignoring the past misdeeds of many Native Americans even before the first European settlers arrived only reveals a dubious agenda, that is seemingly intended to fan the flames of division.

Sure. You can't blame me for choosing the same word often used in colloquial national self-identification, though. "United States Citizen" just seemed so long. I am not shaming anyone alive for the misdeeds of ancestors. I am putting a question to those who choose to ignore them when they cast a harsh eye on others. I am questioning the glib self assured proclamations, the angry allusions to an inevitable violent conflict. I am questioning whether or not Americans, or if you prefer, United States Citizens, really want to perpetuate this darkness.

Every sovereign nation has the right to protect their borders and control the flow of immigration into their lands. Mexico does this and so does the U.S.A., and if this thread is some sort of round about way of attacking the people of the U.S.A. for wanting immigration laws enforced, it has only accomplished in attacking people for being people. The U.S.A. is a nation of laws, and under the Supreme Law of the Land, all people are equal under the law, which means no one is better than another.

No, not really. I don't think Americans are any worse than anyone else, either.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by JohnnyElohim

 

"Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of creative altruism or in the darkness of destructive selfishness." ~Martin Luther King Jr.

I guess you don't really believe in the comment on your "signature" made by a great AMERICAN. In YOUR words, he did NOTHING to improve this country. Why not REMOVE your signature, and replace it with something like "America sucks". It is more in keeping with your sick attitude.

I think you've misread me. I am not saying the actions of Americans make nothing better. I am saying the United States of America is not richer and more powerful because Americans are inherently better.

As an American, I am ashamed of the insensitive pride of my countrymen. But, what will be, will be. Eventually that push and shove rhetoric will die and all that will be left behind is the land of the free.

Can't wait for humanity to completely wake up.

Home of the truly brave.

I thought for sure this was going to be a thread about how American business has been outsourcing work to mass production countries like China (America's factory)and India (America's call center), but then again technically insourcing on the labour of Mexican Nationals, and other imagrants "south" of the border... who work for "lower" wages...

...

reply to post by JohnnyElohim

I think you've misread me. I am not saying the actions of Americans make nothing better. I am saying the United States of America is not richer and more powerful because Americans are inherently better.

Most Mexicans and most Americans are good people, by nature. If the Mexican government took better care of their people, they wouldn't be fleeing across the border for a better life. I don't blame them- I blame their government for their flight, and I blame OUR government and businesses for taking advantage of them, with substandard wages, and blackmail of discovery. Governments, if left uncontrolled by the citizenry, will ultimately revert to exploitation. It is one reason that governments should have short term limits.

Originally posted by JohnnyElohim
The fortune of the United States can be traced to it's origins as a land occupied by nearly unarmed natives who were deceived, exploited, and attacked with biological warfare and overwhelming military superiority with the simple goal of taking what they had.

When I read posts like this one, the first thing I do is look at the "location" field on the writer's profile. Amazingly, the majority of the time, it is found to be blank. Hmmm?

Anyway, regarding the above quote, why did you chose to pick out this one era, to use against "Americans"? Is it really fair to just look back about 160 years and put blame on those involved in the westward expansion during the days of the great "Gold Rush"? Or is that just a convenient, albeit brief, period of time, of which most Americans are not particularly proud?

With this logic, let's look back further into the history of the settlement of the Americas. Who should really be to blame? Maybe the Russians who encroached upon the Sugpiaq natives of Alaska's Kodiak Island in 1784? Or, how about the French, Spanish and British who continued to settle areas of North America throughout the 18th century?

During the 17th century, soldiers, explorers and fortune seekers came from many places to claim a piece of the "Americas". France, Great Britain, the Netherland, Sweden, Scottland, Spain, Portugal. Is it possible that those of you who so much enjoy pointing fingers at "Americans" (meaning citizens of the U.S. of A.), have ancestry responsible for some of the atrocities you assign to others?

What about the Vikings in the 10th century? From the history I recall, they were a pretty violent bunch of "settlers". Eventually, if you look back far enough, every person shares common ancestry. So maybe you should be careful about assigning blame.

Besides, that was then, this is now. Every country has its laws, why are we expected to be different?

Originally posted by WTFover

Originally posted by JohnnyElohim
The fortune of the United States can be traced to it's origins as a land occupied by nearly unarmed natives who were deceived, exploited, and attacked with biological warfare and overwhelming military superiority with the simple goal of taking what they had.

When I read posts like this one, the first thing I do is look at the "location" field on the writer's profile. Amazingly, the majority of the time, it is found to be blank. Hmmm?

Texas eh? Well I'm sure the rest of your post on this subject is cracker jack material. Glass houses and all that.

The point is America's hands are just as dirty as anyone else's. Some sentences about history doesn't change that. I agree in the modern sense it doesn't matter anymore. However I don't think it was your intent to be about moving on rather than bogging down in a trite argumentative pride.


[edit on 19-5-2010 by PatesHatriots]

reply to post by JohnnyElohim

Sure. You can't blame me for choosing the same word often used in colloquial national self-identification, though.

Blame is irrelevant, you chose the path of self righteousness, and if you expect to wear that mantle then wear it well, or admit you are not worthy of it.

"United States Citizen" just seemed so long.

Laziness is unbecoming of one who wishes to declare all U.S. citizens as not worthy of the land they enjoy, and insist that others had made it possible. By implication you are suggesting that U.S. citizens are lazy and unworthy, the least you could do is be diligent and worthy.

I am not shaming anyone alive for the misdeeds of ancestors. I am putting a question to those who choose to ignore them when they cast a harsh eye on others. I am questioning the glib self assured proclamations, the angry allusions to an inevitable violent conflict. I am questioning whether or not Americans, or if you prefer, United States Citizens, really want to perpetuate this darkness.

Fighting glibness with glibness are you? Casting a harsh eye on those who cast a harsh eye are you? I have all ready made clear that your O.P. only contributed to this perpetuation of darkness. Pissing on others who piss won't stop them from pissing, and is only begging they piss on you. How does that help?

No, not really. I don't think Americans are any worse than anyone else, either.

Perhaps that would have been a better tact and tenor to use then. If you want the hornets nest to calm down and just get along with the rest of the environment taking a stick to the nest and whacking it several times just doesn't make a lot of sense. Clearly people are angry right now, and much of this anger is due to a federal government that has failed miserably at doing a job they have been mandated by Constitution to do, and to make matters worse this same federal government that can't do the job they were created to do, continues to invent new jobs they want to do which involve taxing more and telling people what they have to do and who they have to buy from, this is going to foment anger. You coming along and refusing to acknowledge this source of anger, and simply scream at the angry for being angry is no better than kicking a dog for barking.

Originally posted by WTFover

Originally posted by JohnnyElohim
The fortune of the United States can be traced to it's origins as a land occupied by nearly unarmed natives who were deceived, exploited, and attacked with biological warfare and overwhelming military superiority with the simple goal of taking what they had.

When I read posts like this one, the first thing I do is look at the "location" field on the writer's profile. Amazingly, the majority of the time, it is found to be blank. Hmmm?

I'm not quite sure what that's supposed to mean.

Anyway, regarding the above quote, why did you chose to pick out this one era, to use against "Americans"? Is it really fair to just look back about 160 years and put blame on those involved in the westward expansion during the days of the great "Gold Rush"? Or is that just a convenient, albeit brief, period of time, of which most Americans are not particularly proud?

I didn't actually attack Americans. I simply pointed out that ill-begotten gains contributed to the great success that is America. It is a simple fact. My reason for pointing this out was to highlight the fact that the world is a complicated place and judgements levied against those with lesser means are generally gross mistakes. You cannot enforce desperation out of the desperate. You cannot blame their desperation on them. You cannot enforce hope out of the hopeful. But perhaps there is a policy approach that will help everyone. Perhaps any policy choice which fails to do that will ultimately hurt everyone.

With this logic, let's look back further into the history of the settlement of the Americas. Who should really be to blame? Maybe the Russians who encroached upon the Sugpiaq natives of Alaska's Kodiak Island in 1784? Or, how about the French, Spanish and British who continued to settle areas of North America throughout the 18th century?

During the 17th century, soldiers, explorers and fortune seekers came from many places to claim a piece of the "Americas". France, Great Britain, the Netherland, Sweden, Scottland, Spain, Portugal. Is it possible that those of you who so much enjoy pointing fingers at "Americans" (meaning citizens of the U.S. of A.), have ancestry responsible for some of the atrocities you assign to others?

What about the Vikings in the 10th century? From the history I recall, they were a pretty violent bunch of "settlers". Eventually, if you look back far enough, every person shares common ancestry. So maybe you should be careful about assigning blame.

I couldn't agree more. In fact, I didn't assign blame to anyone but those involved in the actual incidents. But we cannot forget that those incidents are part of why America is so powerful today. If one is born with a fortune and goes on to use that fortune to begin a successful endeavor of their own, can you entirely separate their success from the fortune that was used to facilitate it? Hardly.

Besides, that was then, this is now. Every country has its laws, why are we expected to be different?

I am an American and I want us to be different. Not because we are worse than anyone else but because I believe our advantages enable us to do better, to make the world a better place. I think we should be doing exactly that. I think we can only make the world a better place for ourselves and our descendants by doing this.

The immigration debate as it stands now is hardly concerned with doing that. During the Nazi persecution of Jews most countries did not accept Jewish immigrants, or at least not many. Not enough to make much of a difference. In fact, we too were unwilling to change our immigration policies in light of what was happening at first. Why should anyone have been expected to be different?

[edit on 19-5-2010 by JohnnyElohim]

Originally posted by Tinman67
I'm no better than my next door neighbor. However, I don't want to wake up one morning to find that he has moved himself into my house and that I am now expected to feed and clothe him and his family. And while being an "undocumented resident" of my home his wife pops out a new child, they automatically become a forever resident of my house and stake claim to a portion of it because it is now their birthright.

Wow!

So some Mexicans crossed the border and moved into your house? And your feeding and clothing them yourself, with your own money? And you're going to do it forever? You might be the person most for immigration if you've been personally taking illegals into your home and caring for them. Kudos!!

Of course we are not better.... I just want them to get off my lawn....


line 2

[edit on 19-5-2010 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
Blame is irrelevant, you chose the path of self righteousness, and if you expect to wear that mantle then wear it well, or admit you are not worthy of it.

I was responding to your highlighting that 'American' would technically be inclusive of 'Mexican', which is of course true. But on the subject of self righteousness, to get the record straight, I am no less flawed than any other. I've got my mistakes and vices just like everyone else. I do think I have a point worth making, though.

Laziness is unbecoming of one who wishes to declare all U.S. citizens as not worthy of the land they enjoy, and insist that others had made it possible. By implication you are suggesting that U.S. citizens are lazy and unworthy, the least you could do is be diligent and worthy.

No more worthy, certainly. Any one of us could have been born anywhere, and what then might we think we are worthy of? I appreciate the mild ad hominem but I think you do in fact understand why I'd use the colloquial short hand.

Fighting glibness with glibness are you? Casting a harsh eye on those who cast a harsh eye are you? I have all ready made clear that your O.P. only contributed to this perpetuation of darkness. Pissing on others who piss won't stop them from pissing, and is only begging they piss on you. How does that help?

Fighting glibness with glibness is fair, but I'm not pissing on anyone. I am calling out those who denigrate people they don't know based on pride and bad assumptions. That's not even a group of people. That's an attitude. One I have no doubt I am not immune to, but it's not the spirit in which I write today. If it convinces one person to think about things just a little bit differently, it helped. I respect your opinion that I created darkness, but I think it only appears that way because I stepped into it to make my point.

Perhaps that would have been a better tact and tenor to use then. If you want the hornets nest to calm down and just get along with the rest of the environment taking a stick to the nest and whacking it several times just doesn't make a lot of sense. Clearly people are angry right now, and much of this anger is due to a federal government that has failed miserably at doing a job they have been mandated by Constitution to do, and to make matters worse this same federal government that can't do the job they were created to do, continues to invent new jobs they want to do which involve taxing more and telling people what they have to do and who they have to buy from, this is going to foment anger. You coming along and refusing to acknowledge this source of anger, and simply scream at the angry for being angry is no better than kicking a dog for barking.

That's a complicated thing to reply to. Without getting into the political details, let's say that I think of it more like raising your voice or firing a gun in the air to get the attention of a crowd that's working it's way into a brawl.

reply to post by JohnnyElohim


We are capable of agreements for "reparation" to make a win-win resolutions with ethnic groups. We're just in a fight with the military-industrial complex stealing our wealth...the good vs evil is in play for the near-term.

reply to post by JohnnyElohim

Fighting glibness with glibness is fair, but I'm not pissing on anyone. I am calling out those who denigrate people they don't know based on pride and bad assumptions. That's not even a group of people. That's an attitude. One I have no doubt I am not immune to, but it's not the spirit in which I write today. If it convinces one person to think about things just a little bit differently, it helped. I respect your opinion that I created darkness, but I think it only appears that way because I stepped into it to make my point.

There is no such thing as fighting fair, just ask Evander Holyfield. You made some fairly bad assumptions yourself. The Native Americans weren't a bunch of angels that lived in total harmony among each other before the Europeans arrived. There are plenty of accounts of wars between the tribes and it was a largely tribal form of governance. Tribe against tribe, some enslaving others, killing each other for land, they were humans too, and acted just as human as we all do. Angry Messiah's aren't nearly as effective as the compassionate ones, if effect was your goal.

That's a complicated thing to reply to. Without getting into the political details, let's say that I think of it more like raising your voice or firing a gun in the air to get the attention of a crowd that's working it's way into a brawl.

It is most certainly complicated, and oversimplifying the problem and then kicking the dog for barking without bothering to see just who that dog is barking at, doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Not all who are angry realize who it is they are angry at, but some certainly do, and are no less appalled than you at the pointless bickering between people. Staying focused on the source of the problem and working in ways to fix that problem is the answer. You came in with what you thought was a solution, but solutions are not necessarily answers, and too often turn out to not be the answer at all. A salt solution will only work for specific problems and if used indiscriminately can do more harm than good. Answers are what are needed, not solutions. Firing a gun in the air may be a solution, but what goes up always comes down, and God forbid that bullet you shot in the air just to get attention did more harm than good.

Americans are better....yea thats what I said.

And thats why folks want to come here and work and live if the can, be with us and be like us.....save some greenbacks for better life back home.....cause we are better. We are where its at and not just in this hemisphere....yea baby.

Yea

Originally posted by Logarock
Americans are better....yea thats what I said.

And thats why folks want to come here and work and live if the can, be with us and be like us.....save some greenbacks for better life back home.....cause we are better. We are where its at and not just in this hemisphere....yea baby.

Yea

Is that why they "save some greenbacks for a better life back home?"

Very interesting.

...maybe the basis of the illegal immigration thang really is just plain ol' karma...

...our federal government has sent black ops teams into argentina, el salvador, guatemala, mexico, nicaragua - well, gosh, i'd have to name every country in central and south america and the carribean...

...that supremacy syndrome is not limited to just this side of the world... there are no limits to how far our federal goverment will go to insure only people they approve of are in power and they dont care how many they have to kill to reach their goals...

...our soldiers have always been a disposable commodity and you should check into how many vets are currently homeless... its a staggering number and its because thats how much our government cares about them and thats how much all these flag wavers care about them...

...all of it (the bs wars we're in, illegal immigration, us making other countries horrid to live in, divide and conquer tactics) is a NWO thang and most of you knew that and were bitchin' about it until AZ passed their nazi law and all the sudden lots of posters forgot who the enemy was...

...if you want to blame the people caught up in the middle of this mess (largely orchestrated by our country), do so but dont forget to blame yourself for your own inability to control our government, who is currently the bully of the planet...