Socialist I Am Calling You Out!

i admire some aspects of socialism and communism, but i would not like my freedoms and rights taken away, in the u.s we still have religous & cultural freedom. we have the right to assembly etc etc. while some socialist countries are doing well now, its the end result of communism that scares me. i have yet to hear from one person that has lived in a communist country, that has also lived in a capitalist country, argue that the communist way was better.

reply to post by Janky Red



Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I had not read it before I made my last post so I stand corrected!

As for your thoughts. I agree with you to a point and your scenario is plausible. However I think it is more plausible in a socialistic controlled environment because as I said governments protect markets for the politically connected as evidence by big oil big pharma etc. And all the things we see government approved that are poisoning us and harming us.

In a free market your scenario would be much less likely because information would flow freely and people would again vote with thier feet and wallets and not give thier business to companies harming us.

This is evidenced buy the backlash against vaccines, gmo foods, and other harmful products etc. And in a true free market where information flows freely this information would not be suppressed like it is today. Sure their would be misinformation put out by it proponents but it would be equally countered. We already see this today on the internet. Imagine if it were enhanced even more?

Now nothing is going to be perfect and there will always be corruption and people will need to be more responsible for what they choose instead of just expecting government to protect them which we now know they do not.

Again thanks for the thoughtful reply this is more what I had in mind for discussion. So I apologize if I came off too defensive earlier.

Socialism is WONDERFUL................ until you run out of other people's money. That's where Europe is and that is where we will be soon. Just wait and see :-)

Originally posted by Lilitu

Originally posted by hawkiye
I am sick and tired of all the socialist here showing thier utter ignorance and just parroting the crap they hear on the nightly news or read on some blog or website.

Ah I get it. The truth hurts. It must really be hurting you badly to demand we shut up. Last time I checked we have certain unalienable rights like freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom to run for public office and freedom to vote our collective will. That is exactly what we the people did. If you don't like it (and you clearly do not) then try to learn how to be a graceful loser. No sense going though life in misery.

I am not trying to shut you up I am trying to get you to logically defend your position and you cant'! You are the one telling me to shut up and bow down to the collective will. So where do you and your gang get off telling me what to do ? As long as I am not harming anyone why do you think you have a right to tell me what to do or take my stuff individually or collective? it will be a cold day in hell before any socialist can answer that. And You are lucky people haven't treated you like the common thief's you are!

I didn't loose anything and you have no right to vote to steal my stuff against my will. If the collective will votes to take my stuff against my will it is nothing more then a gang of thugs using force to steal from others.

This is what I am talking about if Socialism is so great and the majority wants it why is it not voluntary? I'll tell you why because it could not survive without stealing from people by force under color of law!

Prove me wrong and show me how taking my stuff against my will is not theft?

reply to post by Lilitu


Go talk to a Cuban about socialism. Right there on El Morro as you sail into harbor are big red letters letting you know where you are "Cuba Socialista". Go ask the people there how a socialist economic system under communist control works for them.

My parents are Cuban. There's nothing Cubans love more than freedom. When you look back in time you begin to notice that big governments kill their people and they kill the people of other nations. It doesn't matter to me whether it is fascism or communism. Socialism doesn't work. The only thing that works for people like me is true liberty. True Liberty requires extraordinary responsibility, not extraordinary control.

When I supported Obama I didn't ask him to turn this nation into Europe or China or Cuba. I wanted what he talked about in those speeches. Respecting rights, not spying on us, bringing troops home, restoring habeas corpus, restoring our Constitution. We didn't get that. We got Bush with a tan and a nicer smile. No one asked for socialism, we asked for a return to our values, we asked for reasonable security measures, we asked for fiscal responsibility, we asked for our rights to be respected and protected.

My family's experience with socialism is enough for me to say, no thanks. If we wanted to be socialist we would have gone anywhere but here.

[edit on 7-5-2010 by projectvxn]

[edit on 7-5-2010 by projectvxn]

reply to post by hawkiye


In virtually every European country, aspects of socialism and capitalism live alongside each other and it works. The best examples are probably the scandinavian countries.

One thing you have to remember is that for many years (ie: the UK), it was the landowner or mill owner etc etc that had workers working for him for a pittance and in very poor conditions. Through volunteer organisations like church groups, and philandrapists, these workers eventually had better conditions. This led to Trade Unions and politicalisation, leading to social reform to the state today whereby the citizen is protected by law.

What I am trying to say is that most European countrys developed their socialist policies over many years alongside capitalist thinking.

reply to post by hawkiye


You are thinking too black and white.

You pay taxes right? We do too in Europe.

Our taxes go on to pay for things like Education, roads, Healthcare, defence etc etc.

The difference is with the US is that you pay taxes AND pay to private companies at the same time. So what is the difference?

reply to post by Wotan


The difference is taxes do not pay for services in the US. look up the grace commission report. It proved income tax just pays interest on the debt and not a single dime goes for government service. I suspect it is the same in Europe but have not researched it to say for sure.

I am not against voluntary social programs like charities. And the landowners you speak of did not operate in free markets. They were usually politically connected to the government or king just like today so they could run roughshod over thier workers. At least back then there was no BS about being free everyone knew what they lived in and that is what led to the birth of America eventually.

reply to post by hawkiye


Sorry, But I can clearly see that you have no idea how socialist policy or income tax works in most European countries. Social reform has evolved in Europe over many hundreds of years, it didnt happen overnight.

One thing ATS has taught me, is the huge difference of opinion between the US system and the European system and on that 'never the Twain will meet'.

reply to post by Wotan


Well I think you're wrong I probably understand better then you how your system works and the US is not all that different from Europe although there are differences. However why don't you point out specifically what you think I do not understand and then maybe we can discuss it?

My initial reaction to the socialist charge was too. I did feel the "geez this (poster) sounds like a socialist" twinge many times during the HCR debate, but I still resisted it as trumped up & I was just emotional about the issue (like being adamantly opposed would make someone think *that*). THEN, in the process of looking for an author of a book I'd read, when I found him & saw who he is NOW, it almost knocked me on the floor. HA! I bet my hair blew back.

It's NOT some sensationalist, triggering, trumped up accusation. It's an OMG NO ###T!!!
People, do your homework. Go back to the 60s. It isn't in obvious places like the cabinet. It's the "foundations" & "endowments"... stuff like that which is off the radar. The people, the ideology, the SAME. It's just more evolved & a LOT more insidious. NOW I understand why I was having such a strong reaction to the tactics the OFAs were using. Much as I hate to have to admit it, the UN is involved to the ceilings.

This may be the dumbest thing the democrats have ever done. They should have stuck with Howard Dean (at least the man was honest & decent) Having Obama as the front man & thinking that nobody would go there because he is African American will not protect this. People already know that they were lied to & manipulated in the run up to the election (the president hasn't even put up a PRETENSE!). Now, we know that we were SET. UP.
Nice try. We're not quite THAT stupid. And boy, are we- democrats, republicans, independents; ESP people who voted for Obama, p#ssed!!

[edit on 7-5-2010 by DogsDogsDogs]

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by Wotan

 

Well I think you're wrong I probably understand better then you how your system works and the US is not all that different from Europe although there are differences. However why don't you point out specifically what you think I do not understand and then maybe we can discuss it?

I am sorry, but the US system and the UK system are diametrically opposed to each other. You like paying your money to a private concern, we like paying our to the Government ....... well we dont like paying, but you know what I mean

reply to post by hawkiye


Don't know how anyone can discuss this in a meaningful way when your first response to someone that didn't agree with you was nothing but a bunch of yelling. You're the OP. You set the pace.

Back to the point, you act as if people who have a certain idea about the way things should be run are knowingly supporting a socialist ideology as a whole. You can support a certain idea that happens to be PART of certain political ideology. It doesn't mean you support the ideology as a whole. It's possible for people to not buy into the whole package and still like certain ideas that come from it.

Just because I believe gun control is out of control it doesn't mean I'm republican. Just because I believe that we need strict laws when it comes to how companies affect our environment doesn't mean I'm a liberal. Just because I believe we should have entitlement programs such as social security doesn't mean I'm a socialist.

Originally posted by projectvxn
Does anyone actually know what the pupose of government in a true free market system is?

1 Enforce contracts
2 Enforce fraud laws on both ends of the deal
3 Remove roadblocks that would otherwise hamper the ability of the markets to work smoothly and REGULARLY(this is what the term regulation mean in the Constitution).

The OP is right, many here think any government service is socialism, and yet this is the deception, government services are not socialism. Socialism is the government controllig the means of production and how it gets distributed.

Socialism isn't a boogeyman, it's real and it's bad. You've had a Communist government practicing socialist economics 90 miles away for 50 something years. The Eurozone is crashing, China is succeeding because they are OPENING UP not closing off.

Research indeed.

Croney capitalism does not equate to socialism.

It simply means some companies have gotten too big to fail due to government not enforcing anti-trust laws as it should. When companies get too big, they also get too powerful which means they can control any given market sector as well as control government by bribing the authorities.

The recent BP disaster in the gulf of mexico is a great example. The government rescinded laws that required off-shore oil rigs to file emergency blow-out plans and as if god or the devil where listening created this disaster to expose such reckless behavior. BP had to wait for the disaster to happen before they come up with contigency plans...pathetic!

If the accident happened in the UK you could bet coporate heads would be linning up in the chopping block. In america they get slapped on the wrist and continue as though nothing ever happened. That is CRONEY CAPITALISM for yahh, definitely not socialistic BY A LONG SHOT!

reply to post by hawkiye


I would bet that what you pay out in taxes and various insurances per annum in the US would be about the same or less in the UK.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by Gromle

 

Most of you would probably penniless if the government hadn't given you some sort of rights.

Far too many of us are penniless precisely because of this foolish belief that government gave us rights. Rights are Inalienable and can not be granted by anyone else. Government "granted rights" are rights that can legally be taken away. In The United States of America, Rights can not be legally taken away. Every day, in this current state of federal tyranny, more and more people are becoming penniless. Only when People begin asserting their Inalienable Rights to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Property, will they begin to flourish and prosper again.

There is no such thing as inalienable rights, its only a theory! Unless you plan on living off-planet you will have to settle for constitutional laws that exist in each country.

If you don't like certain laws then voice your concerns and lobby to have them changed. That is all you can do in a "free" democracy or "free" republic.

Or you can be AN ANARCHIST that eventually gets busted and sent to prison for violating other peoples' rights. Your choice........

reply to post by hawkiye


I think to avoid any confusion about socialism you should probably read this and better understand how socialism is actualy employed by western governmets when it suits them to avert some of the worst crisis in history. It is an short essay by William Blum


killinghope.org...

Originally posted by hawkiye
I am sick and tired of all the socialist here showing thier utter ignorance and just parroting the crap they hear on the nightly news or read on some blog or website..

If socialism is so great then what do you have against making it all voluntary? Are you afraid that you won't be able to steal enough funds by force to support your pet social programs? Seriously if you all start promoting voluntarism I will have no problem with you. As long you you don't you are promoting theft under color of law.

And also quit blaming Capitalism for the failing economies for god sake do a little research. You all have been duped by the media. We haven't had any semblance of capitalism in over half a century. In fact what you call capitalism is in fact socialism/fascism! They have convinced you thier socialism that is failing big time is capitalism.

Most of you agree we live in a Socialist Democracy ( even if it is illegitimate) yet you somehow blame capitalism for the economic meltdown. This goes for other countries also. All those countries are socialist yet blame capitalism for thier demise... hello...!

Capitalism is free markets where people have a choice and government does not intervene to give anyone an unfair advantage under the guise of protecting the consumer. Markets regulate themselves by the quality and service they provide. If quality and service suck or are corrupt people take thier business elsewhere. The only way you can stay in business is to provide a quality product or service as opposed to the socialist government eliminating your competition through regulation and allowing you to stay in business when you should have failed. Like the Big financial institutions they bailed out.

Socialism/fascism is where government intervenes with all kinds of regulation claiming to be protecting consumers from unfair market practices when in fact they are really protecting markets for the politically connected Corps and elites. Like the banks for instance they have a monopoly on the currency and finance. Which is why the economy is melting down. Try to start a bank and you have to jump through hoops and get all kinds of licenses etc. and agree to all thier rules and regulations via the Federal Reserve Bank. So there is no fair competition.

So can we discuss this in a meaningful way or will this just turn into another left vs right ignorance fest?

Fascism is the merger of corporations and the state-Mussilini.

Socialism is the idea that ALL the people should receive the maximum benefits from corporations profits and not just the rich. Thus the wealth should be redistributed to all in a reasonable manor. Socialism is regulated capitalism.

Communism is where the government tries to run all the corporations and fails at it.

Capitalism is slavery (economic) and warfare.

Fascism bad. Capitalism bad. Communism bad.

Thus you are left with Socialism.

Why is that so hard to understand? Because the average person like you worships money and those that have it.

food for thought.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." Goethe

“I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them” –Thomas Jefferson

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
If, if, if...my Grandfather always had a saying; "If my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle." How about this idea, if you want to aspire to be a laborer and not be screwed over by an employer, then forge an alliance with other laborers and start your own damn company, then and only then, will you know the true value of labor.

Shallow thinking leads to shallow results.

If all laborers start their own company, who will work for each company?

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
Uh-huh. That's it, those who advocate freedom are thieves and those who advocate tyranny are noble. Okay.

Capitalism is based on a pyramid scheme. People who invest money first get the most out of their investment and those that invest last loose everything.

That is why the rich get richer and poor get poorer! Most of the loopholes exist for those smart and wealthy enough to be able to exploit them, not for your everday slob.

I have a problem with this system because it is not fair! It is not a government BY THE PEOPLE and FOR THE PEOPLE. It is a government by the FED(and other prominent corporations) and for the FED(and other prominent corporations). If you can't see this CRYSTAL CLEAR picture what else can I tell you?

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
There are occasions when circumstances are beyond control, but rarely. Earthquakes, Tsunamis, and other natural disasters are circumstances beyond control, outside of that, circumstances are most assuredly in peoples control and all to often circumstances are the consequences of ones actions.

If this is the best you can do then obviously you are SHORT SIGHTED and TERRIBLY BIASED! How about "you get in your car to go to work and some idiot driving a truck ramms you from behind, you go the hospital and suffer neck injuries which results in you not being able to work for months or even years"?

Or how about you got your hand caught in equipment and you loose a few fingers?

How about you don't pay your gambling debts and some mafioso breaks your legs?

How about you suffer from chronic back pain?

Or your mentally challenged and can't put 2 and 2 together....

The list is endless why some people NEED WELFARE!

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
Someone posted earlier that the only free market was the black market.

That was me.

The black markets exist because of WEAK GOVERNMENTS trying to make a buck off of good, hard working people. Try importing drugs into muslim countries and see how far you get...you will get executed!

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
Morality? I live in a large metropolis where people sell their wares on public sidewalks daily. They sell clothes, they sell food, they sell drinks, and cigarettes, and flowers, and all of it is black market. Immoral? Ha!

In morally decomposed western countries everything is ok, the cops look the other way and its business as usual. The corruption goes all the way to the top and ITS FOOLISH to be moral. Have you seen the serpico movie based on NYC cops of the 50s/60s?