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Socialist I Am Calling You Out!

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posted on May, 7 2010 @ 06:17 AM
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Originally posted by jimmyx
reply to post by belial259
 


i agree with you. labels are thrown around strictly for emotional appeal.
capitalism is so deeply rooted in america, that this country becoming a socialist country is so remote it's laughable.


I see what's happening there and I wish you would. I hate what is going on in that country. You have a right to jobs and a decent wage. Not minimum wage, no job security, no benefits and living off tips while financial predators destroy your retirement funds and take away your homes.

Your government should protect you from that. You are "The People"

It's a travesty, but I do what I can to help. Even though there is no real safety net for American's there is still charity, and I give to the Salvation Army every month since this sub prime crisis started and I will for as long as I can.




posted on May, 7 2010 @ 07:30 AM
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reply to post by VintageEnvy
 


Every brokerage agency does this. All of them. That is the norm. Goldman is just being investigated so they can fluff the investigation and get a slap on the wrist, Then Goldman gets to help write the new laws.

Imagine that you investigate the mob, they say oh we are sorry we will pay a fine, and will you let us help you write the laws so we won't do this to you again.

ahahahahahahahahha you deserve to get robbed if this is the best legislative practices our congress can come up with.


Why did you rob us Goldman? That is our business.



posted on May, 7 2010 @ 07:35 AM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 


There was no free market to begin with, so what the hell are you talking about..

You can never have free market without corruption..

It is like saying you can have no crime without laws.. That is absurd..

If you ask free market, then don't stop, ask for free world with no laws..

Just like a free market, you can't survive in a free-world if you do things people don't like.. For example rape, murder blablabla.. But if you have too much power, it doesn't matter what people like or not.. Since the world is free of all laws, you can do what ever the %%%% you want with that power..


That is very similar to free market..



posted on May, 7 2010 @ 07:49 AM
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reply to post by oozyism
 





There was no free market to begin with, so what the hell are you talking about..


Except for black markets, your statement is sadly true. But black markets do exist, and pretending they don't won't change that.




You can never have free market without corruption..


We have heavily regulated markets and corruption is rampant, so what the hell are talking about?




It is like saying you can have no crime without laws.. That is absurd..


It is absurd, but only because laws exist, and no piece of legislation changes that. We have crime, because laws exist, we institute governments because laws exist, and a just government understands those laws, an unjust government claims authority to invent laws.




If you ask free market, then don't stop, ask for free world with no laws..


No gravity, no speed of light, no laws.




Just like a free market, you can't survive in a free-world if you do things people don't like.. For example rape, murder blablabla.. But if you have too much power, it doesn't matter what people like or not.. Since the world is free of all laws, you can do what ever the %%%% you want with that power.. That is very similar to free market..


The only way a socialist can force their theories on the public is by making such boneheaded arguments. The belief is that all laws are created by legislation and whatever the people want, then the legislature make into law, but this ignores the very real laws that exist. Freedom always comes with consequences, just as subservience does. The only difference between the two is that in a free world, those who harm others outside of self defense, will be held accountable for their actions, which is what is meant in the Preamble by establish Justice. The murderer does not have the right to murder, and as such must be held accountable, this does not in anyway undermine freedom, but rather upholds it. Conversely, the welfare recipient will insist that they have a right to other peoples money, which is legal plunder, and plunder is plunder no matter who is doing it, and as such a crime. When plunder is made legal by legislation, this undermines the law.

[edit on 7-5-2010 by Jean Paul Zodeaux]



posted on May, 7 2010 @ 08:00 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


Let's keep this simple shall we:

Someone kills someone, and there is freedom, meaning no laws, but there is a law which brings justice, which states murder is illegal.. And you are saying that, that law is actually freedom, or upholds freedom?

But you can't have freedom with laws, freedom means, being free to do what ever you want.. If there is something you can't do, don't call it freedom..

Humans will never be free, pure freedom is impossible, because even if we don't have laws governing us, we will always have universal laws..

You will see a lot of this with free market:



Dozens of Indian labourers have been forced to take refuge in a Sikh temple in Kabul after job agents who promised lucrative jobs in the unstable capital disappeared, leaving the men penniless and without passports.



posted on May, 7 2010 @ 08:08 AM
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reply to post by VintageEnvy
 


vintage, you need to take a huge look at what you just wrote? the same government that gave you the right to vote was the same one that told you previously that you couldnt right? just curious?



posted on May, 7 2010 @ 08:12 AM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 


hawk i will have to say that your spot on. every poly sci professor that i have ever had has twisted socialism with capitalism , thus has twisted and manipulated the term capitalism-free market!
S&F for you



posted on May, 7 2010 @ 08:12 AM
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Does anyone actually know what the pupose of government in a true free market system is?

1 Enforce contracts
2 Enforce fraud laws on both ends of the deal
3 Remove roadblocks that would otherwise hamper the ability of the markets to work smoothly and REGULARLY(this is what the term regulation mean in the Constitution).

The OP is right, many here think any government service is socialism, and yet this is the deception, government services are not socialism. Socialism is the government controllig the means of production and how it gets distributed.

Socialism isn't a boogeyman, it's real and it's bad. You've had a Communist government practicing socialist economics 90 miles away for 50 something years. The Eurozone is crashing, China is succeeding because they are OPENING UP not closing off.

Research indeed.



posted on May, 7 2010 @ 08:14 AM
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"And also quit blaming Capitalism for the failing economies for god sake do a little research. You all have been duped by the media. We haven't had any semblance of capitalism in over half a century. In fact what you call capitalism is in fact socialism/fascism! They have convinced you thier socialism that is failing big time is capitalism. "

Wow. Is this a real OP or a CIA plot. Google "Balance sheet" and look towards the end of the dummy balance sheet you may see something interesting there. A Capitlaist is a person who provides Capaital. Capitalism is the Use and manipulation of said capital via shares, debentures and other financial instruments.



posted on May, 7 2010 @ 08:18 AM
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reply to post by oozyism
 





Let's keep this simple shall we:


If only you would. Instead you do this:




Someone kills someone, and there is freedom, meaning no laws, but there is a law which brings justice, which states murder is illegal.. And you are saying that, that law is actually freedom, or upholds freedom?


There is nothing simple at all about what you just stated. Here is the simplicity of it; We are free to act in any way we want so long as it does not cause harm to others, unless that harm is in self defense. This is the law, and no legislation invented this law, it is just simply law and self evident. Are you advocating murder as a tenet of freedom?




But you can't have freedom with laws, freedom means, being free to do what ever you want.. If there is something you can't do, don't call it freedom..


You are equating chaos with freedom, and the two are not the same. You do have the freedom to do what you want, and people harm other people all the time. When they do harm someone without cause, they have broken a universal law that is as relevant on Mars, Jupiter and Pluto. Jay walking, on the other hand, is not a universal law, but merely legislation intended to reign in freedom not protect it. If legislation is not protecting the Inalienable Rights of the individual, then it is not law, but merely legislation.




Humans will never be free, pure freedom is impossible, because even if we don't have laws governing us, we will always have universal laws..


You are either lamenting the fact that you can not murder and rob others without paying the price for that, or you are aware of what you are arguing, and understand fully that the only way to plunder others, is by convincing the public at large that humans will never be free. You are willfully ignoring my assertions that legislation is not law, but merely pieces of paper. Humans will never be free as long as they buy into your pretzel logic.

It is foolish to aspire to be a laborer and is no way to flourish and prosper. If you do not want to flourish and prosper this is your choice and you are free to make that choice, but don't expect me to feel sorry for you if that choice leads to where such choices inevitably lead...poverty. Why, in God's name, would you choose poverty? I urge you to flourish and prosper and not by plundering others, but by relying on your own abilities to prosper. It is really that simple.



posted on May, 7 2010 @ 08:22 AM
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Originally posted by projectvxn
Does anyone actually know what the pupose of government in a true free market system is?

1 Enforce contracts
2 Enforce fraud laws on both ends of the deal
3 Remove roadblocks that would otherwise hamper the ability of the markets to work smoothly and REGULARLY(this is what the term regulation mean in the Constitution).

The OP is right, many here think any government service is socialism, and yet this is the deception, government services are not socialism. Socialism is the government controllig the means of production and how it gets distributed.

Socialism isn't a boogeyman, it's real and it's bad. You've had a Communist government practicing socialist economics 90 miles away for 50 something years. The Eurozone is crashing, China is succeeding because they are OPENING UP not closing off.

Research indeed.


So its a bad thing that the government makes sure the workers get paid, that the production doesn't pollute more than necessary? Its about justice, so that the few rich don't exploit the workers. Is that a bad thing? How wealthy would the average Joe be then?

I see the stories in here, US workers working their asses of, and still need food coupons??! Whats wrong with you guys? Most of you would probably penniless if the government hadn't given you some sort of rights.



posted on May, 7 2010 @ 08:28 AM
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reply to post by Gromle
 





Most of you would probably penniless if the government hadn't given you some sort of rights.


Far too many of us are penniless precisely because of this foolish belief that government gave us rights. Rights are Inalienable and can not be granted by anyone else. Government "granted rights" are rights that can legally be taken away. In The United States of America, Rights can not be legally taken away. Every day, in this current state of federal tyranny, more and more people are becoming penniless. Only when People begin asserting their Inalienable Rights to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Property, will they begin to flourish and prosper again.



posted on May, 7 2010 @ 08:33 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


Bottom line, humans will never be free..
Freedom always comes at a price, and that price is justice.. In order to have freedom, you must give up justice..

That is the point I was trying to make earlier.. The nature is as free as it can be..

You believe in partial freedom, don't even bother saying it is freedom..

If you can't do what ever you want, that is not freedom.. Don't confuse yourself, even though legislations are papers, they are turned in to law, when mixed with law enforcement agencies..

No justice no peace, but just freedom..



posted on May, 7 2010 @ 08:33 AM
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It is NOT foolish to aspire to be a laborer if the people in charge didn't try to continually screw their employees. Unions had to be created for a reason. To keep people with your type of mind set from stealing every dime they had.

And so many people want to go to college, have a better life, but cannot due to circumstances beyond their control.

Someone posted earlier that the only free market was the black market. That should tell you something about the level of morality a truely free market ends up adopting. People want to hide behind things like economics as an excuse for why those around them suffer. The whole "well they chose that life" is not even remotely a correct answer.

The free market concept assumes that people will do the right thing because it is in their best interest, but we all know d#$n well that a lot of the time people make the wrong choices. Regulation is a necessity as long as fallible people are making decisions. A society that is purely any one thing whether it be capitalist, communist, socialist, etc., usually fails. It is the rigidity of a system that eventually leads to it tearing itself apart.



posted on May, 7 2010 @ 08:44 AM
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reply to post by oozyism
 




Bottom line, humans will never be free..


By taking this argument you are defending tyranny. Why would you do that?




Freedom always comes at a price, and that price is justice.. In order to have freedom, you must give up justice..


More double speak. You obviously are not willing to pay the price for freedom, but any attempt to impose this foolish belief on free people only invites disaster.




You believe in partial freedom, don't even bother saying it is freedom..


I am the one advocating freedom, not you. You are merely attempting to redefine it in order to justify your own beliefs which clearly have nothing at all to do with freedom.




If you can't do what ever you want, that is not freedom..


Yes you can do what ever you want, and if you actually decide to murder another person, then this is what you will do. Your problem is not that you can't murder, it is that Justice will demand a price for that murder.




Don't confuse yourself, even though legislations are papers, they are turned in to law, when mixed with law enforcement agencies..


There is nothing confusing about it. Laws are universal, and People didn't need Sir Isaac Newton to know that gravity existed, nor did gravity come into play the minute Newton wrote its mathematical equation down on paper. The same holds true for laws regarding the co-operation between People. No one needs a legislative act in order to understand that murder is wrong...well, maybe you do, but that is your problem.




No justice no peace, but just freedom..


Silly little platitudes will not change the reality of law.



posted on May, 7 2010 @ 08:56 AM
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Originally posted by hawkiye
And also quit blaming Capitalism for the failing economies for god sake do a little research.


Yes indeed, do a little research.

Capitalism as an economic system is inherently flawed. Its finance processes introduce destabilizing forces, not to mention the increasing division of labor. In combination with many other flaws and factors, the economy is hit with economic time bombs every now and then. Stop with the Friedman arguments, its evident they have failed long ago. Too big to fail is a prime example.



posted on May, 7 2010 @ 08:58 AM
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reply to post by Gromle
 


First, when it come to things like wage inequality you either pay what the market calls for or the qualified people will go elsewhere. Pollution is enforced by property rights. Meaning that no, you don't have the right to pollute the neighbors land.

As far as where rights come from, no government gives rights, they only take them.
We do not exist in a country that uses the free market system. The government only enforces the property rights of corporations, the government subsidizes large corporation while stifling the little guy, our government plays favorites, and if we become a fully socialist country these problems can only get worse.



posted on May, 7 2010 @ 09:03 AM
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reply to post by Dredge
 





It is NOT foolish to aspire to be a laborer if the people in charge didn't try to continually screw their employees.


If, if, if...my Grandfather always had a saying; "If my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle." How about this idea, if you want to aspire to be a laborer and not be screwed over by an employer, then forge an alliance with other laborers and start your own damn company, then and only then, will you know the true value of labor.




To keep people with your type of mind set from stealing every dime they had.


Uh-huh. That's it, those who advocate freedom are thieves and those who advocate tyranny are noble. Okay.




And so many people want to go to college, have a better life, but cannot due to circumstances beyond their control.


There are occasions when circumstances are beyond control, but rarely. Earthquakes, Tsunamis, and other natural disasters are circumstances beyond control, outside of that, circumstances are most assuredly in peoples control and all to often circumstances are the consequences of ones actions.




Someone posted earlier that the only free market was the black market.


That was me.




That should tell you something about the level of morality a truely free market ends up adopting.


Morality? I live in a large metropolis where people sell their wares on public sidewalks daily. They sell clothes, they sell food, they sell drinks, and cigarettes, and flowers, and all of it is black market. Immoral? Ha!




People want to hide behind things like economics as an excuse for why those around them suffer. The whole "well they chose that life" is not even remotely a correct answer.


And yet, the socialist points to economy and blames, the socialist declare themselves victims and blames, and all the while, no matter how much regulation there is, no matter how bad the corruption gets, they blame free markets. How is that the answer?




The free market concept assumes that people will do the right thing because it is in their best interest, but we all know d#$n well that a lot of the time people make the wrong choices.


I buy products from those street vendors all the time. Some have sold me bad product and that is the end of that, I don't do business with them. Others are so ethical and so good, I do business with them regularly and even have credit. That's the free market baby.




Regulation is a necessity as long as fallible people are making decisions.


Are you under the impression that fallible people regulating fallible people cancels out fallibility?




A society that is purely any one thing whether it be capitalist, communist, socialist, etc., usually fails. It is the rigidity of a system that eventually leads to it tearing itself apart.


There is nothing at all rigid about capitalism, and it is the only system I know of that can move with market fluctuations with relative ease. Regulation is rigidity. Regulation has not been able to prevent corruption and only adds to it, and can not deal with the market fluctuations.

[edit on 7-5-2010 by Jean Paul Zodeaux]



posted on May, 7 2010 @ 09:08 AM
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reply to post by serbsta
 


Research indeed. Too big to fail had nothing to do with capitalism. There is nothing more anti free market than monopolies supported and created by government. I recommend you read Friedrich Hayek or Adam Smith.



posted on May, 7 2010 @ 09:09 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


Just gotta ask. How do these people in your city selling all those things you say make a black market? I (this is just my defenition of things) don't consider a flea market a black market.



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