Socialist I Am Calling You Out!

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


I wasn't suggesting they were the same thing. But the end result bears much of the same problems. It is still a system of centrally controlled interests which become corrupt and lead to a catastrophic collapse.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

There is no such thing as inalienable rights, its only a theory! Unless you plan on living off-planet you will have to settle for constitutional laws that exist in each country.

It is far more than a theory, my friend, it is self evident, and the strongest evidence of this lies in the Founding of the United States. The Natural and Inalienable Rights enumerated in the Constitution preexisted that Constitution, and the Articles of Confederation and State constitutions support that. The Bill of Rights was not even added until after the Constitution had been all ready ratified by each state. It was added to ensure those enumerated Rights were not trampled upon, and the 9th Amendment speaks volumes to the incorrectness of your assertion, unless you somehow think that Amendment is "granting rights" nobody is really sure about.

If you don't like certain laws then voice your concerns and lobby to have them changed. That is all you can do in a "free" democracy or "free" republic.

I can do much more than that. I can assert my Rights, and indeed have, when confronted with the unconstitutionality of a law. I can also, and indeed have, serve as a member of a jury and refuse to convict another person due to the repugnance of a law, and in that instance, it took less than an hour to convince the rest of the jury to see my reasoning, and that person charged with a "crime" was acquitted, and there was nothing anyone could do about it.

Or you can be AN ANARCHIST that eventually gets busted and sent to prison for violating other peoples' rights. Your choice........

This is nothing more than the fallacy of excluded middle. How would one person enjoying their Natural and Inalienable Rights, violate another persons Natural and Inalienable Rights?

reply to post by hawkiye


USA a socialist democracy??? Are you out of your mind!?

Yougoslavia, East Germany, pre-Pinochet Chile, Trudeau's Canada, and actual Venezuela were/are socialist democracies, and I really don't see how the US can compare to these regimes. Where are the "jobs for everybody" and the "affordable housing for everyone" policies? How about complete equity between mens and womens on the workplace? What about a house being given to each worker or household once they reached a certain amount of years of service to society? That was social-democracy. In the US, you have a crappy capitalist oligarchy (that I'd prefer to call a mediocracy) where average honest Americans are being kicked out of their homes by corporate interests while the people in power hand out trillions in bail out to their friends in Wall Street, and let them give themselves bonuses while they're supposed to get their records straight! Where's the socialist democracy here???

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Few have been presented with the thousands of years of philosophical evolution contained in the constitution. Natural Rights was a term arrived at by Cicero after observing certain tenets of nature repeat themselves over and over in every species he saw, including humans. As such, a human can only be be a human. A human must express him/herself 1st amendment, a human must have the means to defend him/herself 2nd amendment, a humans domain, life, and possessions must not be violated by the military or by the law 3rd and 4th amendments, it goes on but I think you get my drift.

My point is, people who have never really STUDIED the Constitution and all that goes with it will not bother to understand these basic Natural Principles until they are faced with a situation that threatens to hinder or harm those Natural Rights.

[edit on 7-5-2010 by projectvxn]

[edit on 7-5-2010 by projectvxn]

Originally posted by projectvxn
many here think any government service is socialism, and yet this is the deception, government services are not socialism. Socialism is the government controllig the means of production and how it gets distributed.

Well it comes down to what you percieve as appropriate. In the United states you may feel healthcare is a private service and any government involvement is intrusive and socialist. However in most other countries healthcare is seen to be a government responsibility and therefor not necessarily communist or socialist in anyway. You feel having the police is not 'socialist' but somebody else in another part of the world can argue that having protection is a service, and therefor not the governments respnsibility. The founding fathers even went so far as to establish the American postal service which is in most other countries handled by private companies. Yet this isnt socialist right? Because it was added to the constitution?

You make the exceptions to what the government control and what they cannot control or run. That does not make the defintion of it so. There are no services that are officially marked as 'exceptions' to the socialist system. It can be government involvement in anything that concerns our lives and everything in our lives.

[edit on 7-5-2010 by Southern Guardian]

Hello,

Do you even know what Socialism is

You can not blame socialism just because some its elements, for example the welfare system, were failed in some countries.

One most important aspect of Socialism is: wealth distribution is based on individual merit and contribution.

So indeed, IMO, there is NO socialism country in this world today, including China.

Similarly, you can not call north Korea a communism country just because little crazy Kim said so. Real communism should be based on an ultra rich society - say every of us is richer than Bill Gates. It is just a dream.

So please learn the real ideas of socialism instead of those false statements and propaganda.

In addition, I think capitalism and socialism are mutually exclusive, we should adopt the best elements from them and other ideologies based on the status of our current society. Unfortunately, this world is controlled by elites and they will not give you the change.

reply to post by projectvxn


I certainly do get your drift, and tragically even when confronted with what you described, people are too ignorant to assert those rights. Certainly the man who was charged with possession of small amount of marijuana and a bottle of Valium not prescribed to him, did not know enough to assert his Inalienable Rights nor did his lawyer.

When, as a member of that jury, I began arguing the legislation was repugnant to the very state constitution that granted the legislature authority, their first concern was that the judge had instructed us to base our decision upon the facts of the case alone. I countered that the constitution was a crucial fact in that case. The rest of the members were concerned that if they agreed with me, they would somehow get into trouble. I insisted we ask the judge that if we acquitted if we would be violating any laws. We sent a note to the judge asking for instructions on this, and his reply was we were to base our decisions based on the facts of the case alone. Not satisfied, and now several other members of the jury were beginning to see my point, we sent yet another note, asking the judge how this law could stand constitutionally.

The judge sent back a reply instructing us that the constitution had no bearing on the case. This brought a few more to my reasoning and the few who remained reluctant, were finally convinced when we sent one more note to the judge asking what law existed that would make our acquittal a crime. His reply was that he had made his instructions clear and it was our job to render a verdict. That was all it took, and finally all agreed the state constitution most certainly did apply, and the vote was unanimous to acquit. None of us were charged with a crime, both defendant and his lawyer seemed to be surprised, but pleased, and that was the end of that.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


I agree to a certain extent actually. But this is where the Constitution REALLY plays an active role. All powers not delegated by the Constitution to the Feds falls on the states. So you could have Universal Healthcare here in Nevada but not in Texas, it's built that way because no two state economies are the same.

I would actually like to see the Feds shrink so that the states can take over the duties they choose to. It would be FAR less controversial. Remember no one gave a crap when Massachussetts passed their owned HCR.

I just think we need to find way to work within Constitutional constraints while still remaining up to date, and there are MANY ways of doing this.

[edit on 7-5-2010 by projectvxn]

reply to post by oozyism

Free market failed, no rules and regulations failed, now stop the wimping and crying.. Come up with something new.

These Unites States have never had a "free market."

Not when a private bank is the one setting up and controlling that market.

Modern Money Mechanics

Originally posted by dreamspark
Hello,

Do you even know what Socialism is

You can not blame socialism just because some its elements, for example the welfare system, were failed in some countries.

One most important aspect of Socialism is: wealth distribution is based on individual merit and contribution.

So indeed, IMO, there is NO socialism country in this world today, including China.

Similarly, you can not call north Korea a communism country just because little crazy Kim said so. Real communism should be based on an ultra rich society - say every of us is richer than Bill Gates. It is just a dream.

So please learn the real ideas of socialism instead of those false statements and propaganda.

In addition, I think capitalism and socialism are mutually exclusive, we should adopt the best elements from them and other ideologies based on the status of our current society. Unfortunately, this world is controlled by elites and they will not give you the change.

Sigh! This is looking like a lost cause. The above post is illustrative. It seems almost every socialist comes on here and instead of looking at the facts just wants to redefine the terms to fit whatever BS they have swallowed from media. And then you get responses like this.

No one has even tried to answer my questions about voluntarism nor can they explain why taking someone stuff against thier will in the name is socialism is not theft. I hope everyone is preparing for economic melt down. Cause just from this thread you can see why it is inevitable. People have no sense of right and wrong and feel entitled to others money and stuff you see how they throw around free health care and education and redistribution of wealth like it is the greatest thing in the world with no thought of who has to pay for it...

When society is built on a foundation of theft it can't help but fail!

I agree with you hawkiye. The United States is a socialist country. It has been since FDR. Anytime the government takes any money from you to support other people for "charitable" reasons they are actually taking your money and giving it to someone else. That is what Socialism is, the redistribution of wealth. The only socialist program the United States didn't suffer pre-Obama was Health Care. We are now well on the road to that. As soon as businesses figure out that it will be easier to pay the government a fine than to insure its' workers, most of us will have no option other than government mandated healthcare.

Originally posted by dalan.
reply to post by oozyism

 

Free market failed, no rules and regulations failed, now stop the wimping and crying.. Come up with something new.

These Unites States have never had a "free market."

Not when a private bank is the one setting up and controlling that market.

Modern Money Mechanics

I wouldn't say never. The first hundred years we had relatively free markets. But yes the Banksters have been hard at work digging thier hooks in since our inception. Modern Money Mechanics is a great book and should be read by everyone if you want to understand what's going on with the monetary system and why we are headed for disaster.

[edit on 7-5-2010 by hawkiye]

reply to post by hawkiye


You have never lived in a free market economic system. Stop mentally masturbating to an economic ideal that you have no experience in.
Like someone has already said, you live in something similar to a Kleptocracy. However, I am not going to specifically place blame on any one politician or group of politicians. You, are brainwashed. How is that red scare treating you. Pathetic, your brain is affected by one of the largest mental conspiracies ever to occur in the United States and you actually dare to post on ATS. You have not experienced any form of pure freemarket or pure socialism. Your nation has tiny aspects of both every now and then.

Calm down. I mean it.

Originally posted by TheOneElectric
reply to post by hawkiye

 

You have never lived in a free market economic system. Stop mentally masturbating to an economic ideal that you have no experience in.
Like someone has already said, you live in something similar to a Kleptocracy. However, I am not going to specifically place blame on any one politician or group of politicians. You, are brainwashed. How is that red scare treating you. Pathetic, your brain is affected by one of the largest mental conspiracies ever to occur in the United States and you actually dare to post on ATS. You have not experienced any form of pure freemarket or pure socialism. Your nation has tiny aspects of both every now and then.

Calm down. I mean it.

Well he said it and said he means it so it must be true... /sarcasm.

Big sigh! You have no clue just another socialist who wants to regurgitate media BS and never address the real issues or answer my questions. The only thing pathetic is the continuing train of socialist posting on this thread showing thier complete and utter ignorance and inability to carry on any meaningful discussion. You're like the 14th one who says I don't know what I am talking about, but can't seem to provide any specifics of what i don't understand or any evidence as to why...

Many people have experienced free markets. Ever heard of the black market or underground market? Some folks live thier whole life using nothing but underground markets so don't assume you know anything about me or what I have experienced.

The only thing you seem to have experienced is some media induced fantasy that you repeat over and over like a mantra.

So here we have another non-substantive post and attack... sigh!

Next...

[edit on 7-5-2010 by hawkiye]

Originally posted by hawkiye
I wouldn't say never. The first hundred years we had relatively free markets.
[edit on 7-5-2010 by hawkiye]

Relative free markets are not free markets. I don't think free markets have ever existed out side of small towns or small isolated markets within a larger market.

There is always someone controlling things. Reminds me of Barter Town in beyond thunderdome. Everybody knew who ran Barter Town.

I know that the idea is a good one. The same could be said about socialism. In theory both should work well but you just can't leave out those couple of greedy power hungry individuals who find a way to currupt them.

Now as to the involuntary aspect of socialismm that is just part of it. You have a problem with it, so you have a problem with the idea of socialism.

Just as there haven't been real, lasting free markets there have also not been real lasting socialist governments. Their is always the taint of human curruption in anything that man undertakes on a large scale so they both have failed not because they are flawed but because man is flawed.

Many Nations around Europe (and Canada) have been socialist-leaning for years , they seem to be doing pretty good , in fact the beat the US in many "Standard of Living" lists.

I reckon you should get your mind out of the 60's "red scare" and see what beautiful system socialism can be (if done properly)

reply to post by hawkiye

I wouldn't say never. The first hundred years we had relatively free markets. But yes the Banksters have been hard at work digging thier hooks in since our inception. Modern Money Mechanics is a great book and should be read by everyone if you want to understand what's going on with the monetary system and why we are headed for disaster.

True, true.

But, don't forget about the First Bank of the United States and the Second Bank of the United States. Both of which were the predecessors to the Federal Reserve.

Economic control has definitely been off and on since the beginning of these United States.

Originally posted by WXBackdoor
Many Nations around Europe (and Canada) have been socialist-leaning for years , they seem to be doing pretty good , in fact the beat the US in many "Standard of Living" lists.

I reckon you should get your mind out of the 60's "red scare" and see what beautiful system socialism can be (if done properly)

What, you mean like this:





[edit on 5/7/2010 by dalan.]

Well, as JPZ has brought to the table, black markets. They are thriving.

Has anyone looked into the history of the USSR?

Black Markets were the only thing keeping that country afloat at the end. Care to point me to a capitalist society where socialism was maintaining it? Thought not.

Taxation of a society by force or threat of force is SOCIALISM. Period. End of discussion. End of debate.

Forcing anyone to give up their fruits of their labor, IS SOCIALISM. Period. etc etc etc.

Choice is exactly what a socialist does not want to give.

Choice is exactly what a tyrant does not want to give.

Ever wonder why the mafia's protection racket seems to be the EXACT same model as socialist government's view their citizenry? Do not want to pay your insurance against fire or other "problems" that may occur?

Sound familiar?

Government can and has existed without forcing the citizenry to pay for it.

Why do you state then that it cannot exist without forced taxation?

If you look at the price of any illicit product, be it any product that the government does not regulate, you will find that the price of said product remains low. The only reason half of the cost exists, is the threat of jail, makes the purveyors of the product raise the price. Even with this cost, the price remains low.

Forced taxation of someone's labor (which is property) is theft.

Forced taxation of someone's house or land is another form of theft.

Life, Liberty and Property. Forcing someone to pay for these very basic rights is SLAVERY. Plain and simple. Period.

So, forcing me to be a slave is what socialism is all about.

In conclusion, those that think socialism is the bee's knees-

ARE SLAVE MASTERS and SLAVES!

I do not want to own slaves, so why do you?



[edit on 5/8/2010 by endisnighe]

Originally posted by dalan.
reply to post by oozyism

 

Free market failed, no rules and regulations failed, now stop the wimping and crying.. Come up with something new.

These Unites States have never had a "free market."

Not when a private bank is the one setting up and controlling that market.

Modern Money Mechanics

ZZZ everyone is confused, everyone is talking about different free markets, different freedoms.. Same words with different definitions..

I guess that is how they keep us confused and lost, while they continue their dirty work..

Remember the definition of terrorist changed too, just like freedom, just like free market, balablablabla..

Now why is your definition of free market any more valid than anyone else?

Since it has changed so many times, it don't make sense any more, just like terrorism..