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What's the Harm?

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posted on May, 5 2010 @ 09:48 AM
368,379 people killed, 306,096 injured and over $2,815,931,000 in economic damages.

I have heard this alot on various websites, ATS included, and it angers me when I see people making such comments. Specifically, the idea that people who believe in a 2012 doomsday, and by extension any other pseudo-scientific beliefs, have failed to educate themselves, and should be left to their own devices.

What's the harm in believing in 2012? Why should we work so hard to dispel this fear? Shouldn't we leave these people alone? The answer is "No!", because this irrational fear can lead to tragedy! Disagree? Read on.....The website What’s the Harm has a list of 368,379 people killed, 306,096 injured and over $2,815,931,000 in economic damages that have occurred from people believing in various pseudo-scientific ideas. Many of these are anecdotal, but there is an entire section devoted to cases backed by scientific studies and data. The site has a section titled What’s the harm in fearing the apocalypse?, showing 1,810 people who were harmed, most of them killed, because of their fear of the apocalypse. In addition, the section links to A Brief History of the Apocalypse which details many apocalyptic predictions going back thousands of years.

Main site.
What's the Harm?

A list of 1,810 people who were harmed by someone not thinking critically.
What's the harm in fearing the apocalypse?

This category contains only cases that are backed by scientific studies or case reports, for those of you who insist on evidence. Here are 365,632 people who were harmed by someone not thinking critically.
Where is the science?

For thousands of years, people have been predicting the end of the world. Every single one of them has been wrong.
A Brief History of the Apocalypse

Also, a woman by the name of Kate Sherrod who is a friend and supporter of the 2012hoax website, took a picture at a bookstore in Cheyenne, Wyoming, showing an end-cap dedicated to "2012" books.

As the author of the website says: Shouldn't we leave these people to their own devices? My answer is also a resounding "NO!".

posted on May, 5 2010 @ 10:09 AM
Oh dear... you're speaking with reason. Prepare to be labeled a dis info agent who is working for the government and NASA by trying to deceive people and suppress the 'truth' about 2012.

Those 2012 books are based on nothing. It is spreading an irrational fear which does no good.

Determining in which year Glen Beck would have used up his 1000th chalkboard and deciding the year will be 2031 has about the same amount of value as a significant date as 2012 does.

posted on May, 5 2010 @ 10:32 AM
reply to post by serbsta

Originally posted by serbsta
Oh dear... you're speaking with reason. Prepare to be labeled a dis info agent who is working for the government and NASA by trying to deceive people and suppress the 'truth' about 2012.

Oh of course. That's an easy way out for 2012 Doomsday believers. Label someone as a disinfo agent and say they are on NASA's payroll and move on. I'm fully prepared for those types of responses. I just hope that as we get closer to 2012 we don't see people overcome with fear because of what they have seen and read on numerous websites and in books and resort to taking their own lives. Sadly it has happend before and will most likely happen again and the scary thing is we know there are 2012 Doomsday cults out there.

posted on May, 5 2010 @ 10:56 AM
I read some of the deaths...and I think its pretty sad they have to go that low. Many of the people died because they would rather take alternative medicine routes, that is there own choice and should be respected.

They also rely wayyy to much on bold to get the point across, in my opinion. I wonder what they think of this "fluff" we are in, or the "nemesis". Of course that can't be related to 2012!
Neither could all these Earthquakes or weird Earth phenomenon.

I also find it funny how they mention "bad science" often throughout the site. Do they not realize that they could be wrong to? Are the "facts" the are stating truly facts? We have been shown time and time again that science "facts" are never concrete and there is always someone who can proof a theory wrong.

From the site

We know what we are talking about. This site is written and maintained primarily by amateur and professional astronomers, with input from various other scientists including geologists, archaeologists, and chemists.

We know where all of the big dangerous Earth-crossing objects are or will be for the next 10 years or so. If there were a large rogue or long period object that was going to approach us in 2012, we would be able to see it by now, and we would be able to see its effects on the outer planets by now.

Well this sounds awfully blunt. I guess since they all know everything about how the universe works then they have to be right! Give me a break! Read through the FAQ to see how arrogant I think these people are. The amount of generalizing on that site is honestly quite overwhelming. They are using geological evidence from thousands of years ago (which is a topic of discussion all by itself) to determine what can and can't happen.

The thing I find most interesting is that they don't even define Apocalypse

"An Apocalypse (Greek: Ἀποκάλυψις Apokálypsis; "lifting of the veil" or "revelation") is a disclosure of something hidden from the majority of mankind in an era dominated by falsehood and misconception, i.e. the veil to be lifted."

You know, I don't see many people really spreading fear that believe in 2012. Sure, I see people talk about surviving when all hell breaks loose, or people talking about what to keep in their bunkers if something does happen. What is wrong with a little preparation when we all can see what is already happening around us? It seems to me this site is trying to get people to completely go on with their "normal" lives and to completely disregard any thought that something huge could be coming. I would even go to say that all the fear has been spread has been a result of what we have already been exposed to and not 2012 itself.

I can understand the frustration getting ready for 12-21-12 or whatever the "end day" is. That to me is just what it is, the last day of an era. I think we will have climaxed before then. I DO NOT think the Apocalypse should be feared but embraced. The more people that embrace the idea of things being revealed to us the more things can change.

Before you make a sarcastic joke, do yourself and read the site. See how arrogant and sometimes down right rude these people are.


posted on May, 5 2010 @ 11:02 AM
It's a rather restricted view, I think. One might just as easily ask what the harm is in believing in religion. Jehova's witnesses not choosing to receive transfusions? Scientologists not taking meds? The millions who died following the populace's belief in the middle ages that God wanted them all to go off on crusade to the Holy Land? The list goes on and would number many, many millions throughout history.

What's the harm in a belief in capitalism?

There is obviously harm attached to any form of belief. Who are any of us to say which beliefs are irrational?

posted on May, 5 2010 @ 04:01 PM
reply to post by kyle43

I have read the entire site and am very impressed with it. To me it's the best 2012 debunking site you can find. From what I have read there it's the believers of the 2012 nonsense who are the arrogant and rude ones.
I didn't make this thread to get into such a discussion about a particular website and what someone does or doesn't like about it, but I'll reply to your post anyway.
I find it rather odd that you think it is "low" to try to save the lives of children.
Is there something wrong with using bold type to emphasize a point?

They differentiate between the absurd impossible claims of the doomsayers and actual scientific facts which refute these claims. They don't claim to know everything about the Universe, but they do know a good deal more than the doomsayers, none of whom have any actual scientific education.
I do know the actual meaning of apocalypse is revealing or lifting the veil.
I don't need you to define it for me from your Wikipedia source.
I also know that its most common usage by most people today is doomsday.
You think they are arrogant? I see nothing in the FAQ of the site to suggest this. Simple straightforward questions with simple straightforward answers, but you are certainly entitled to your own opinion.
Yes, they use geological evidence from thousands of years ago. What the Earth has done in the past gives a good indication of what it might do in the future.
If you don't see many people spreading fear about 2012, you must be going around with your eyes closed. I do hope you aren't running into walls.
From what I can see they do not tell people not to prepare for possible natural disasters, but they do tell them that there is no evidence that 2012 will be the end of the world.
"All these earthquakes and wierd Earth phenomenon (the plural is phenomena)." The number and intensity of earthquakes has not increased.

Nice rant, but pointless. I think we need to stick to what the thread is about, and that is that doomsday hype can and does take lives. Do people really need reminding of the recent story of the young girl from India who committed suicide by drinking pesticide after she watched programmes about the LHC (Large Hadron Collider) that held discussions about the European experiment featuring doomsday predictions? Girl suicide over 'Big Bang fear'

[edit on 5/5/10 by Agent Venom]

posted on May, 5 2010 @ 04:13 PM
The 2012 phenom and the fear as well as the accompanying deaths that it is allegedly responsible for are just a drop in the bucket. Fear period is a highly profitable business. I found this article that gives some perspective into how lucrative the business of fear is.

Here is an excerpt of an Abstract written by Matthew D. Adler from the University of Pennsylvania Law School:

Fear Assessment: Cost-Benefit Analysis and the Pricing of Fear and Anxiety

Risk assessment is now a common feature of regulatory practice, but fear assessment is not. In particular, environmental, health and safety agencies such as EPA, FDA, OSHA, NHTSA, and CPSC, commonly count death, illness and injury as costs for purposes of cost-benefit analysis, but almost never incorporate fear, anxiety or other welfare-reducing mental states into the analysis. This is puzzling, since fear and anxiety are welfare setbacks, and since the very hazards regulated by these agencies - air or water pollutants, toxic waste dumps, food additives and contaminants, workplace toxins and safety threats, automobiles, dangerous consumer products, radiation, and so on - are often the focus of popular fears. Even more puzzling is the virtual absence of economics scholarship on the pricing of fear and anxiety, by contrast with the vast literature in environmental economics on pricing other intangible benefits such as the existence of species, wilderness preservation, the enjoyment of hunters and fishermen, and good visibility, and the large literature in health economics on pricing health states.

This Article makes the case for fear assessment, and explains in detail how fear and anxiety should be quantified and monetized as part of a formal, regulatory cost-benefit analysis. I propose, concretely, that the methodology currently used to quantify and monetize light physical morbidities, such as headaches, coughs, sneezes, nausea, or shortness of breath, should be extended to fear. The change in total fear-days resulting from regulatory intervention to remove or mitigate some hazard - like the change in total headache-days, cough-days, etc. - should be predicted and then monetized at a standard dollar cost per fear-day determined using contingent-valuation interviews.

Part I of the Article rebuts various objections to fear assessment. Deliberation costs are a worry, but this is not unique to fear, and can be handled through threshold rules specifying when the expected benefits of fear assessment appear to outweigh the incremental deliberation costs of quantifying and monetizing fear. Other objections reduce to the deliberation-cost objection, or are misconceived: irrational as well as rational fears are real harms for those who experience them; fear can be quantified; worries about uncertainty and causality reduce to deliberation costs; the possibility of reducing fear through information rather than prescription means that agencies should look at a wider range of policy options, not that they should evaluate options without considering fear costs; the concern that the very practice of fear assessment will on balance, increase fear by creating stronger incentives for fear entrepreneurs seems overblown; and fear is a welfare setback, whether or not it flows from political views.

Fear sells, probably just as well as Sex.

[edit on 5/5/2010 by UberL33t]

posted on May, 5 2010 @ 07:15 PM
I was pretty big into 2012 and I don't really think I could have done any damage to myself or anyone else. I remember making an ass of myself at some social places, but that's about it.

posted on May, 6 2010 @ 12:59 AM

like do some actual research, you know going to one source, than another and another and another and another. you keep researching until you can't research any longer.

it is at that point you actual have a valid opinion, i think anyways..

the world will not end in 2012. it can not.

however, the issues the whole 2012 "group" raises are still important and hold true.

Our society and leadership is ultimately corrupt.

Ancient civilizations were indeed communicating with ET's.

what is going on right now, from this day forward, shall be the most historic and eventful time, in recorded human history.

No the world isn't ending, but it is changing, and fast.

But hey, don't take my word for it, i have nothing to prove.

Do some legitimate research on spirituality, aliens, and everything in between and you will find what it is you are looking for.

posted on May, 6 2010 @ 03:12 AM
So with the recent oil rigs collapsing. 1.3 trillion cash being printed for the hell of it, Fireballs falling from the sky since 2009, earthquakes, volcanoes, Obama not fixing the economy, Polish president and his elites killed in a plane crash, filmer and director of footage of assassination killed, HAARP, healthcare bill, etc....

Hmm it is a strange year for 2010 and I wonder what it will be like in 2011?

BTW people who believe in 2012 are the worst people and not the debunkers? LOL I think it takes both sides that are at fault.

posted on May, 6 2010 @ 08:24 PM
Let's check some these claims out. We'll check the non-political stuff. We'll check oil platform failures, fireballs, earthquakes, and volcanoes.

1980 - Ekofisk drilling platform failure 123 killed
1988 - Piper Alpha pltform failure 167 killed
2001 - Roncador offshore platform 2 killed 8 missing
2010 - Deepwater Horizon oil rig 11 killed

American Meteor Society - Fireballs
2005 - 466
2006 - 515
2007 - 587
2008 - 726
2009 - 693
2010 - 232 (suggests 696 for year)

The flux of small near-Earth objects colliding with the Earth
The numbers in the AMS reporting form are stable at around 700. The article above suggests that the rate of meteorites of a size can be predicted by a power formula. That means it has a stable rate.

earthquakes - USGS shows that rate is normal for year
volcanoes - USGS shows rate is normal for year

Maybe its the politics that is weird. The natural world seems to be normal.

posted on May, 6 2010 @ 08:58 PM
Yeah my local Barnes and Noble has an end cap and an entire bookshelf dedicated to 2012. It annoys the crap out of me because they have cut back on other topics in the area to accommodate the 2012 books. They had ONE book on Ancient Egypt, just ONE! They use to have an entire row, but now it's all about 2012. I am there weekly and they seem to have more and more each week.. I have to order most books online now because they don't carry a selection anymore of anything considered "New Age" unless it's 2012 related.

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