'Fearmongers' Were Right about Obamacare

Originally posted by Light of Night
reply to post by DogsDogsDogs

 

In the 60's it was Acid, in the 2000's its prozac, to keep them from falling into super deep depression because they can't possibly figure out why nothing is the way they thought it would be. So they just pop pills day in and day out to keep them from going on massive violent rampages.

Jokes aside, I'm glad the proof is now out, because I don't know how anybody with even a pinky toe based in realty could really believe that adding more people to government programs and giving access to a service is going to make something cheaper.

>> It is very VERY simple to explain WHY we will save money with Obamacare; the Taxpayer pays for ALL THE PEOPLE not paid for by insurance companies. You see, when a Mom doesn't get prenatal care and then goes to the hospital without health insurance, it costs on average about $100,000 to the taxpayer. If they were insured, it would cost $10,000 on average from the person and insurance company.

So SINCE we don't shoot sick people and Emergency Rooms are expensive - then doesn't it make sense to make sure that they are insured so they don't wait that long? And most of these programs only kick in when you are broke -- so there is no incentive to save money or get a job if you are already sick.

If you want to NOT give healthcare to illegal aliens and the poor -- then let me know how that goes after the next Tuberculosis plague or some kid gets sick eating spinach.

Saving pennies by denying healthcare isn't only inhumane and bad for our society -- it's financially stupid.

>> Just look how much Bush/Cheney saved us in the Gulf of Mexico by removing the requirement to have a system in place to plug the hole -- BP saves $200,000 and we lose an entire ocean and are evacuating the coastline. It could possibly destroy more than just the one ocean.

>> If you need anything else explained -- I'll be happy to help.

So, why did the mods take th Obama Kool-aid pictures down? Can we get a reason please mods? You are getting worse than the govt..

reply to post by VitriolAndAngst


I'm glad you brought that up, Vitriol. One of the problems I see with allowing so much illegal immigration is that it increases the chances of the US even HAVING a "tuberculosis plague" or any of a number of drug resistance bacterial diseases. In Mexico, antibiotics are available OTC- which probably accounts for why there is such a problem with drug resistant TB in Mexico. Restaurants are NOTORIOUS in Texas (& probably elsewhere) for hiring illegals (there is at least one well known cafeteria chain here that has been engaging in that practice for as long as I can remember). The problem is that, being off the books, they don't have health cards (which include TB tests & often x rays- or they used to). That is Russian roulette for the unsuspecting diner.

You guys can try to spin this free healthcare for illegals any way you want to (as US citizens fall through the cracks or pay more because the budget can only be spread so far) but it is just wrong on too many levels. This is kind of a two-for-one special for the left because it promotes several agendas- globalism, another socialism based program AND an increased voter base for democrats salivating for increase or hang on to power.

Disclaimer: It turns out that I may be more of a left libertarian (which is fadin' fast) but not so long ago, I identified with the democrats & had all my life prior to that. Like many people, I am disgusted *to the point of throwing up* from the things I have seen come out of this president's administration and what the democrats have done with their majority. I. Am. Ticked! The backlash is real and it is getting stronger. Don't forget the independent vote which put Obama & the democrats in office.
Enjoy it while you can.

reply to post by NEWclearMind


It's against the T&C regarding political baiting and trolling. Nothing nefarious.

reply to post by VitriolAndAngst


Oh, you actually went there!

The BP disaster is now the FAULT of Bush/Cheney!?

Welcome to my foe list. Only two added in 1 year.

Since you STILL have not awoken to the very REAL situation here in the world. The government is the military arm of the Banksters and the Mega Multi National corporations.

Welcome, to my reality.

The CATO INSTITUTE??

Can we really trust the garbage that comes out of that organization? In short- No.

It was founded in part by one of the Koch brothers of Koch Industries. They are known for starting multiple right-wing think tanks that spread loads of disinformation/propaganda that's friendly to big business.

They're just fighting the battle for large insurance companies who might be put out of business if universal health-care catches on and we get a REAL deal out of it after the first taste.

www.sourcewatch.org...

[edit on 6-5-2010 by NoHierarchy]

Well, I went to check my e-mail this afternoon and in my in-box was a warning from my accountant about the effects of this legislation on ordinary tax payers and small business owners. I thought "Oh, @#$%!" when I downloaded the files, and sure enough, spelled out clearly within was the whole shebang about people being forced to have "adequate" health care and paying a fine if they don't. And all the crap about what this will mean to business owners, but thankfully most of that doesn't apply to me as I am a sole proprietor.

I don't care where this info in the OP came from, only that I have a good idea based on what I've seen laid out in the actual law that was passed as to what might happen to me, and I don't like it one bit. That's the scary part - many people have no idea what will become of their current health plan, if it will be deemed "adequate" (anyone ever find an official definition on that?) and what they will be left with in the end. If that doesn't worry you, there's something really wrong.

Worse yet, it takes away people's choices (only the truly blind could miss that). Based on the info provided (from the law itself), it appears I will probably just continue along with the mediocre insurance I currently have (which is self-pay since I work for myself and have no employer other than myself) and if it is deemed "unacceptable", I suppose I will plead economic hardship or maybe say I'm a Jehovah's Witness or something.... It seems that any sort of credit I might receive to buy insurance would also be useless to me because apparently they only give you that if you go into "their" plan. And if they try to force me into medicaid that would also be useless to me (though apparently there's nothing in the law that says you can't pay your own way and buy the insurance you want, at least not anything I've yet seen), as none of my doctors accept that. That's another issue - the gov't might give you a free ticket to ride, but you'll be damned if there's any bus around to catch a ride on (which is often the case in countries that have socialized medicine)! That's like a door without a knob...

Anyone who thinks this is gonna be manna from heaven is in for a rude awakening! If you have insurance from your employer, who knows what will happen to that? If you don't have it, you either have to buy it, buy into one of their "approved" exchanges or go on medicare (good luck finding a doctor that takes the last one!) - or you fly under the radar and hope you don't get caught.

This was bad from the get-go and it's gonna be bad when it's fully implemented (we can always hope that it won't be funded or even repealed).

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by VitriolAndAngst

 

Oh, you actually went there!

The BP disaster is now the FAULT of Bush/Cheney!?

Welcome to my foe list. Only two added in 1 year.

Since you STILL have not awoken to the very REAL situation here in the world. The government is the military arm of the Banksters and the Mega Multi National corporations.

Welcome, to my reality.

I am actually surprised that they didn't say that Bush blew it up, like the levee in New Orleans!

Originally posted by VitriolAndAngst

Obamacare isn't a GREAT first step, but it's going to get people covered who weren't. It doesn't ENFORCE the request that asks everyone to get health care -- so I think they snuck one for the people.

It's not going to get ME covered. I'll not allow it, and you can take that to the bank!

Enforcement provisions ARE built into it, and I'm going to ignore them as well. The 'request' is NOT a 'request', it's a MANDATE, a LAW. Illegal, I might add, but of course the courts... GOVERNMENT courts... have yet to determine that, don't they? Let's see just how good the government is at cleaning up it's own mess.

I'll let ya know how that 'non-enforcement' business turns out -- so I think you may still be out in la-la land.

Edit to add: I fail to see how giving the corporations a guaranteed windfall of several million MORE people being forced to pay them is going to hurt the corporations you CLAIM to so detest. Looks to me like you're stumping for them pretty hard.

[edit on 2010/5/7 by nenothtu]

Daily Dose from M.C. Douglass today (May 12th):

Millions of Americans will cough up billions

You can't tax people into good health... but you sure can fine them to death.

In just a few short years, millions of Americans will be subject to huge penalties for the new crime of not having health insurance.

Welcome to ObamaCare, comrades.

The Congressional Budget Office estimates that 4 million people will be hit with ObamaCare penalties by 2016, and 3 million of them will be firmly in the middle class.

These are individuals with incomes below $59,000 a year, and a family of four with a combined income of under $120,000, all being forced to pony up an average fine of more than $1,000 each -- 2.5 percent of income, with a $695 minimum.

The fines begin to take effect in 2014, and by 2017 the feds think they can raise $4 billion a year from them. That's money they'll use to pay for health care for people who don't work nearly as hard as you do... including the fence-jumpers.

That's right -- obey and pay. Break the law, and benefit. It's a redistribution of wealth AND health.

But there's a way out for the rest of us too, and I've found it.

This part is going to get me into trouble, but I don't give a rat's tail. I've done some careful digging and found a loophole so big you can drive an ambulance through it.

If you don't have health insurance, you have to report it to the IRS, which is supposed to collect your ObamaCare fine.

But unlike taxes, it has no actual power of enforcement over this. If you don't pay, they can't file a lien and they can't bring criminal charges against you.

As of this writing, there's not a thing the IRS can do to make you pay that fee.

Got that? Good.

Remember, there's nothing more American than civil disobedience.

douglassreport.com...

More in the Obama tax gouging bill

CBO Says Obamacare May Exceed $1 Trillion yeah, many here were going beyond our means to make people aware of the scam on the tax payer that is the Obamacare.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Can I say bend more please tax payer in the nation?

reply to post by DogsDogsDogs


I appreciate a good reply like yours. It's not about agreement -- but that helps -- it's about at least understanding the argument / point.

Treating people RIGHT, universally, seems to me, with very few exceptions, to be a GOOD practice for us as a Society and Economically. Treating people wrong, however, seems to shift costs and make someone rich at the expense of another.

It might take a bit to track down the 6 degrees of separation -- but ethics isn't only right, it's smart.

Covering illegals with at least basic preventive health care and their kids -- will help all of us. If you are making a profit on people who are sick, however, then I suppose you would be against some form of medical support for ANYONE in the USA.

In Europe, if you visit, you can usually see a doctor -- no citizenship required. The procedures and care you get after that, vary -- but it seems pretty civilized to me.

>> People born in America are just lucky - not MORE DESERVING. And I think that when people talk about "costs" -- they don't consider the REAL COSTS and the big ticket items that get ignored. It only seems the magnifying glass goes towards anything for the Poor (insert "LAZY" for alternate perspectives), or foreign or ethnic. But what people don't realize is that these social supports usually have a positive benefit to society.

Do you realize, that welfare and minimum wage IMPROVE tax receipts and stimulate the economy? Yes, you can just GIVE money to the poor, and 100% of it goes right back into our economy + added stimulus. The arguments about "learned helplessness aside" -- it's a long discussion. But we are always socially engineering our country even when we choose to do nothing.

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by VitriolAndAngst

 

Oh, you actually went there!

The BP disaster is now the FAULT of Bush/Cheney!?

Welcome to my foe list. Only two added in 1 year.

Since you STILL have not awoken to the very REAL situation here in the world. The government is the military arm of the Banksters and the Mega Multi National corporations.

Welcome, to my reality.

Well, thanks!

It is merely 90% the fault of Bush/Cheney. I give 10% of the blame to Obama for being Naive and not rounding up every political appointee and kicking them out of the government the first month in office. But that would leave him with a very small staff -- the Republicans have stalled 80% of his appointments after he's bent over backwards to be "bipartisan" -- which is code for "roll over Democrat."

Cheney's Energy Task Force meeting likely was a detailed roadmap for these energy companies. Bush set up an "opt in regulation system" and BP has numerous violations. The presidential appointees of Bush got converted to permanent jobs just before he left, and mostly their qualifications are; Lobbyist, Donator, or educated at a fundamentalist school.

What has been found out, is that the BUSH APPOINTED MMS regulators were "sleeping" with Energy Company reps (yes, actually "in bed") and taking bribes and drugs (Crystal Meth seems to be the favorite). No REALLY!


I could add lots of other info to support my claim that this is a Bush disaster -- but it all goes back to his attempt to undermine this country and the Middle Class. If Bush were working for a foreign power to destroy the United States -- I don't think he could have done a better job in that regard. Borrowed from our adversaries, undermined every government regulatory agency -- what do you think BP did? They cut corners, the regulators pencilled in any reports, and ignored the rest.

Disasters galore are waiting in the wings.

>> Obama isn't willing to, can't, or doesn't know he should make a huge change in staff. But the STAFF that failed were all Bush appointees. The Policies were set by Bush. Obama failed to change them but the Republicans have failed to actually allow him to take over as President. Obama sucks, and Republicans suck harder. It's pretty obvious to me.

Originally posted by marg6043
More in the Obama tax gouging bill

CBO Says Obamacare May Exceed $1 Trillion yeah, many here were going beyond our means to make people aware of the scam on the tax payer that is the Obamacare.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Can I say bend more please tax payer in the nation?

What you aren't getting is the CBO predicted that Health Care would COST MORE, if NOTHING was done.

You folks need to crunch the numbers and get the CBO in context. The Health Care in America is messed up. And it is LEGAL for lobbyists to pay for a politician's campaign through "donations." So, Congress and the Senate are owned by big money wherever it comes from.

No meaningful reform can be done until the system completely fails it seems.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by VitriolAndAngst

Obamacare isn't a GREAT first step, but it's going to get people covered who weren't. It doesn't ENFORCE the request that asks everyone to get health care -- so I think they snuck one for the people.

It's not going to get ME covered. I'll not allow it, and you can take that to the bank!

Enforcement provisions ARE built into it, and I'm going to ignore them as well. The 'request' is NOT a 'request', it's a MANDATE, a LAW. Illegal, I might add, but of course the courts... GOVERNMENT courts... have yet to determine that, don't they? Let's see just how good the government is at cleaning up it's own mess.

I'll let ya know how that 'non-enforcement' business turns out -- so I think you may still be out in la-la land.

Edit to add: I fail to see how giving the corporations a guaranteed windfall of several million MORE people being forced to pay them is going to hurt the corporations you CLAIM to so detest. Looks to me like you're stumping for them pretty hard.

[edit on 2010/5/7 by nenothtu]

>> Listen, I agree with you that the Mandates suck. OK?

But honestly, there is actually NO ENFORCEMENT of the mandate -- #1 it's going to be hard to implement regardless, #2 it's more of a "pretty please." So you can thank them for giving you the same out that most corporations get. This was a carrot to get Republican support, actually.

The Health Insurance Companies, were Happy to allow government to provide Medicade many years ago, because it gets rid of people they didn't want to insure; old folks. If the Republicans actually get rid of the mandates -- and they are welcome to as far as I'm concerned -- then the HMO's are going to spend money to unseat them. That's just reality.


Getting everyone in the system can lower costs - because the government actually pays for EVERYBODY not covered. That's the thing people don't get. And Conservative talk shows wail all the time about the "welfare moms getting bandaids at emergency rooms" - well, this brings them into the fold and penalizes them for NOT taking preventive care.

It costs a lot less to give someone a bandaid from a regular doctor than to have them go to the Emergency Room and use medicade. -- can we not have a rational discussion here?