The universe has to be Self Aware because we are

reply to post by Matrix Rising


Hi OP,

Great thread indeed, S&F. I think this is the best thread title i've seen since I joined ATS around 1.5yrs ago. g

I definatley think there is self awareness there to an extent. Whether the Universe is fully aware, i'm not sure, but whatever or whomever is behind the creation of it must surely be very aware!!

g



[edit on 5-5-2010 by grantbeed]

reply to post by Matrix Rising


Nope, you are an illusion created by you're material brain and nothing more, mwahahaha! Everything just is and there is no consciousness except illusory perceptions of it!

Seriously though, thanks for making this post OP, I have voiced similar arguments, actually, the same exact one, but I have yet to hear a strong atheist retort to such grand implications. I suppose the argument would consist of mitigating significance and any possible importance.

Attempts to show imperfection always pales in comparison to the complexity we see, and nature of existence, not just as a body, but the virtual mind.

As biased as lee strobel is, the case for a creator really makes some great points.

I believe so....

I will try to recite some of what I have learned from Eckhart Tolle's 'A New Earth'....
When one is free of compulsive thinking (which is driven by the Ego) and you are completely open to just Being, the intelligence of the universe is able to flow through you. This is where true creativity comes from- When you are living in the Now, you are not living in the past or the future (which is only in thought) you are open to this creative flow of energy that comes from the source...

We are all connected, we are all a part of the whole- We are inseparable. The universe is intelligence itself- In other words, the universe is intelligent enough that it expresses itself through you. (If you are open and not run by the Ego) You are a reflection of the universe. When you have become Aware, you will realize this.

For example- 'non intelligent' beings such as plants have this creative energy flowing through them.

"A sapling doesn't want anything because it is at one with totality, and the totality acts through it. We could say that the totality- Life, wants the sapling to become a tree, but the sapling does not see itself as separate from life and so wants nothing for itself. It is at one with what life wants. That is why it is not worried or stressed. And if it dies, it dies with ease. It is as surrendered in death as it is in life. It senses, no matter how obscurely, it's rootedness in Being, the formless and eternal one Life." - Eckhart Tolle

To the OP- From what your opening post reads,(which is an excellent thought by the way) I would suggest you read this book- 'A New Earth' from the author I quoted... It is just amazing and I think you would thoroughly enjoy it. I just finished it.

My favorite part from the book is in my signature- The truest thing I've ever heard...


[edit on 21/04/10 by jinx880101]

from:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Have a nice day now

reply to post by harryhaller


That's Amazing...

I understand it's possible that we are a smaller version of the big picture- basically a replica of a larger 'being'... I once heard something along the lines of- If you look at the big picture, you will notice that the pattern repeats itself endlessly....and the other way around...if that makes any sense- it's difficult to put into words...

I would think most of the posters here would have heard of Nassim Haramein but if not he is definetly worth looking up. Loads of videos on youtube.

Part of his work explains the fractal nature of our universe. He explains how not only does infinity extend out into the universe but also flows in the opposite direction into every atom. There are no bounderies a such, everything just repeats fractally at a bigger or smaller level. The boundaries we percieve depends on our observational stand point.

Thanks for the responses.

I do think more people are becoming aware of this and hopefully it occurs on a global scale and we can evolve as a species to a higher state of consciousness.

Science tells us everything is connected and entangled. So we can't be something that the universe isn't. That makes no sense.

It's like we call Einstein a genius but Einstein just discovered the genius inherent in the universe. So if Einstein was a genius, so is the universe.

It's just like TV, radio, computers and microwave ovens. Every time you throw something in the microwave or turn on the TV you are experiencing the genius of the universe.

The problem is a philosophy that says we are separate from the universe. So we are intelligent and creative but the universe is cold and blind. Science tells us we can't separate ourselves from the universe. Like someone said earlier as is above, so is below.

So if we are aware, intelligent and creative, so is the universe. If Einstein, Bohr, Hawking and Newton are called genius, so is the universe.

reply to post by Matrix Rising


If the universe is self aware as we are self aware, then a fingernail is equally self aware as we are self aware.

At which point I am begged to wonder... Why do we murder billions of fingernails every year?

reply to post by Matrix Rising


Check out the book, The Living Universe, by Duane Elgin!!

Wonderful book that describes exactly what you said in the OP

I don't believe that intelligence is inherent to the Universe. I am sorry, but I find your argument logically weak. Just because we are self aware does not necessarily mean the Universe is.

On one hand, it can be argued as you put it. That we are part of the Universe and so the Universe must be in some way intelligent. This is a spiritually motivating argument, I will not lie, however...

The Universe doesn't think like we do. This much is clear, if your supposition is true. So if the universe doesn't think like we do, do we think like the universe? Logically, no, because then we'd already know so much about the universe. Logically, that is, and logic, i have found, can be a cruel road to intellectual torture. So if we can make paradoxes out of logic, does that mean that these paradoxes must literally exist, if we don't think like the Universe, then these paradoxes can exist, but only logically. But if we DO think like the Universe, then that must mean that these paradoxes exist, literally. And that simply can't be. Or if it is true, then it simply can't be but it is. And that doesn't make sense. So then, either we don't think like the universe, and our logic and intelligence must necessarily be seperate from it, or, you might argue (that's the great thing about metaphysics NOTHING is concrete) that multiple universe exist, which allows for multiple philosophies, which might conflict sure, but which allows more than one thing to be true at the same time, or different times to be true where on thing is true at different times or, different things are true at different times which would most certainly make explaining paradoxes a whole new level of reality.

So, my argument against yours is that, if our intelligence is inherent in the universe, do we think like it, or does it think like is, and what of all the logical paradoxes that exist when contemplating space and time? Must they, then, exist inseperably in the universe. Does this imply then, that these paradoxes are not really paradoxes but realities with which we must struggle to survive because they are truly unanswerable?

So Wouldnt Life be what created the Universe ?

Since we live, So must the Universe.

Does that make sense? Or have I been up wayy to late?

Whaaaaaa??

So the Universe is only self-aware because we are?? No, we are not self-aware at all. We are hardly "intelligent". If alien life does exist, then why are they not stopping by and saying hello?

Did the Universe create everything or did the universe occur in a preexisting structure and clung to it.?

The idea of a preexisting framework of communication, with our universe stuck to it, could explain our own thoughts of other dimensions and provide a source for Dark Matter/Energy, the bulk of missing Mass/Gravity and where that elusive electron disappears too etc.

I tend to picture myself as a sort of `Cosmic Teabag`, a smaller version of my universe, in the sense of being stuck to an older, preexisting structure...but more tightly knotted.

So I could really be mentally aware (thanks to my scale/knottiness) of the older framework on which I and my universe are painted...knowing very little of my universal surroundings but always feeling that something purposeful and fundamental is missing from human explanations of it.

It could be that this meta-universal coat-hanger, is making us aware of our hanging while we cling to the unfinished garment of our perceptions...the universe is not self-aware or particularly creative, it is what runs through it.
Our situation may produce a more intense link with this creating force, driving us to do the same with the pieces around us, somewhat like the combined efforts of Transfer/Messenger RNA and the Ribosomes, a creative disposition.

...just thoughts

Originally posted by Common Good
So Wouldnt Life be what created the Universe ?

Since we live, So must the Universe.

Does that make sense? Or have I been up wayy to late?

You've been up way to late.

You can't get life without a universe to contain it, so how would life create something that didn't exist for it to exist in in which to create it?

Great thread. S&F.

I subscribe to this beleif, but slightly different. I beleive everything is self aware, i just cannot see how the flesh and blood in our bodies could be so different from the rest of matter. What makes it so special that it alone can hold consciousness?
The levels of conciousness would of course vary greatly.
Before you debunk my arguements remember this; at one point EVERYBODY in the world knew it was flat....

Originally posted by OLDMATE
Great thread. S&F.

I subscribe to this beleif, but slightly different. I beleive everything is self aware, i just cannot see how the flesh and blood in our bodies could be so different from the rest of matter. What makes it so special that it alone can hold consciousness?
The levels of conciousness would of course vary greatly.
Before you debunk my arguements remember this; at one point EVERYBODY in the world knew it was flat....

At which point to you deem something self aware or conscious of it's existence? Is an atom self aware or conscious of it's own existence? Is a fingernail? Do you have something against the fingernails you cut every so often? Why do those fingernails need to die if they are self aware or conscious of their own existence? Do you believe that your own macro existence trumps the micro existence of atoms or fingernails? Wouldn't that indicate a superiority complex?

I ask these questions to better understand the mentality behind such belief.

reply to post by sirnex


I said nothing about humans in the scale of things, no i dont beleive we trump everything else. The fingernail very well may be concious, but not in the same sense as humans are.

Lets me ask you this, what makes humans self aware but a rat or a bug not so?

Originally posted by OLDMATE
reply to post by sirnex

 

I said nothing about humans in the scale of things, no i dont beleive we trump everything else. The fingernail very well may be concious, but not in the same sense as humans are.

Lets me ask you this, what makes humans self aware but a rat or a bug not so?

You did say you believe everything was self aware to a point, so to speak... When one says 'everything' I interpret that to mean literally 'everything' in such context. If you did not truly mean 'everything' in such context, then perhaps you should have chosen your words more carefully in description, should you not have?

Granted you did imply the levels of consciousness would vary and I assume variability as in possibly mass or quantity of matter configuration. Yet, the original question(s) by myself is still very much valid. At what level of self awareness/consciousness do we deem ourselves more superior? Or rather, are we truly more superior as we are nothing more than a mass of "lesser consciousness''" working together symbiotically with one another....

reply to post by sirnex


Yes i did say everything was self aware. Once again ill say, i DONT think humans are superior. We may be more complex than many organisms but that makes us in no way SUPERIOR to anything else. (infact the over-complexity of our lives makes us in many ways INferior to instinct driven animals)
I think the one main difference between the individual human mind and the rest of existance is that for some reason we see ourselves seperate, as opposed to part of a whole.

"At what level of self awareness/consciousness do we deem ourselves more superior?"

We don't. Thats my point.

Originally posted by Regent Leo
The earth never changes direction from internal forces, it has no desires, it does not need to eat or drink, it does not produce waste, it does not entertain itself, communicate, have senses, or anything of the like.

While we have multiple organisms inside us acting as a whole, we depend on other organisms like us to survive; be it plant, animal, or anything else. The earth devours nothing else to survive, and nothing else besides the earth (so far observed) is like it with organisms living on its surface.

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, just trying to clearly state why I don't think the earth constitutes an organism.

[EDIT: My spelling sucks]

[edit on 5-5-2010 by Regent Leo]

I know this is rather outlandish, but; how do you know the above to be true? Think about it, the Earth pukes and flatulates (geysers, volcanoes, etc.). It eats, by means of subduction at fault lines. I could probably come up with many other phenomena on the Earth akin to many of our biological functions but I don't currently see the need.

Mind you, I am not claiming that the Earth is not alive, but I am equally not claiming that it isn't. I will humbly admit that I don't know, and suggest that you, nor anyone else, does either.