The universe has to be Self Aware because we are

reply to post by OLDMATE


Interesting, so then what justification exists for the destruction of things that possess lesser self awareness/consciousness than humans? Why should a plant have it's life taken for the survival of a human? Because it's not as self aware or conscious as a human? This invariably implies a superiority complex. One life is valued more highly than another life.

Maybe perhaps, the OP is wrong in lines of thought and conclusion? Maybe you got suckered into agreeing?

reply to post by sirnex


First of all, yeah great idea lets take absolutely NO life form from creation......go on. do it. Bet you dont survive long...second of all, why do you keep bringing this back to humans V lesser beings? I have a superiority complex you say, but where in any of my posts does it say "# yeah go out and kill # cause your human and that makes it all cool". I value all of existance as one thing. This i have said multiple times.

Im gonna go out on a limb and say your a vegan or some sh*t. If im wrong then dont you also "take the life" of plants and animals? if im right then where do you draw the line? can you eat rice? because thats part of a plant. How about pasta? once again a derivative of a plant.....see my point.

I have read the book called the holographic universe, and I have studied the subject for MANY hours.. It is pretty much scientifically proven that this whole universe is operating as a holograph. Everything is based on frequency and vibration. The reason everything appears physical is because the DNA/RNA body computer decoding process makes it appear so. There are cases where people's bodies have stopped decoding reality correctly and all they were seeing was the pixilized forms of what used to appear solid. David Icke had this happen to him during his Ayahuasca experience, and another person had this happen when they were having some kind of medical problem where the left and right brain stopped functioning as one...

Anyways, one of the main properties of holographs is that ALL parts contain the WHOLE. Scientists have found this is how our brains work. All animals on earth, humans included are extremely similar in physiology. Scientists tested rats by having them learn maze patterns to food and what not, then they individually removed each and every part of the brain that has to deal with memory. They found after trial and error that no matter which part of the brain they removed, the rats NEVER forgot the patterns of the maze. The inescapable conclusion is there is holographic properties of the brain. The only thing that happens when you remove a part of the holograph, is the whole becomes slightly more blurred or less clear. Acupuncture points in the ears and feet can effect the entire body of humans. The earth has its lay lines " or acupuncture points as well where you find Stonehenge and and other places for secret societies and places of worship. This is because parts can effect the whole, and the whole can effect parts.

Again, all parts contains the whole.. The properties are acting the same on a wide scale in the universe in everything that we interpret through the 5 senses. The holographic qualities are also present in the brain.
so being made "in the image of the creator" holds true even though most of us know that religion is mostly garbage lol...

So knowing that we are a part of the whole, created in the image of the whole, I'm willing to bet the universe is self aware because we are too.

[edit on 10-5-2010 by WakeUpAndLive]

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by OLDMATE

 

Interesting, so then what justification exists for the destruction of things that possess lesser self awareness/consciousness than humans? Why should a plant have it's life taken for the survival of a human? Because it's not as self aware or conscious as a human? This invariably implies a superiority complex. One life is valued more highly than another life.

Maybe perhaps, the OP is wrong in lines of thought and conclusion? Maybe you got suckered into agreeing?

The plant has it's life taken because it was at the wrong place at the wrong time and suffer the fate of being a vulnerable edible plant rather than a defensive cactus. What happens in the universe simply happens, there's no justification or condemnation for your actions.

A superiority complex is inevitable.

reply to post by Matrix Rising


So beautifully put OP. Great thought. To add my own little insight on this.

When we look out into this universe, how do we perceive it, in our mind of course, through the senses.

The senses are processed in the brain, so all actual seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling are all done as impulses interpreted by our brains.

Now our brains are also perceived as such by the same process we process everything else, meaning that we are as much as everything as everything is us. In other words, the external world is in us, but we are in the external world, and like the other poster said, it keeps going like a fractal infinitely on and on.

We in the world, the world in us, we in that world, that world in us, etc, etc. Really quite amazing, to realize the universe is self-aware as are we, because in reality, the two are one and the same.

Of course, our everyday common sense, won't allow it to be felt long term, barring an extremely rare mystical experience. I think our ego prevents this state being experienced long term for most of us. There have been some, through drugs or spontaneous experience who do maintain cosmic conscientiousness. Jesus and Buddha are good examples of this state.

reply to post by GrandKitaro777


And by such logical conclusions, we can now verily justify murders, rapes, all crimes as simply... wrong place at the wrong time.

reply to post by sirnex


The point GrandKitaro777 is trying to make is that the taking of life for survival is neccessary. Why is the hare eaten by the fox? Because the fox somehow thinks itself to be better than the hare? No. Because the fox eats hares. Thats how it is.

Why are you so distressed by the idea of everything being part of a whole?

At times I actually entertain the opposite extreme: the possibility that our own self-awareness is an illusion arising from emergent behavior between two or more complex systems, which are in and of themselves just much more complex interactions between molecules than what occurs in, say, a rock. And that, owing to this, perhaps because we might not be self-aware in the sense we typically conceive of it, the universe might so too be merely a complex interaction or series of processes.

Then at other times I entertain the premise of this thread: that consciousness and awareness anywhere in the universe somehow translates to consciousness or awareness somehow being inherent in nature throughout the universe.

Still at other times I entertain the thought that it is all a matter of degrees: that we delineate between what is "alive" and "lifeless" arbitrarily, when in reality one is just a less complex example of the same interactions and systems inherent in the other.

Whatever the case many be, what I do find extraordinary is that somehow, based on our existence here, the nature of the universe at least appears to be for it to develop entities with the desire to comprehend and explore it; that, perhaps in a non-literal sense, but if we anthropomorphize the universe, it can be seen as "wanting" to understand itself.

reply to post by OLDMATE

Why are you so distressed by the idea of everything being part of a whole?

I'm not distressed by the idea of everything being part of a whole. It's nothing more than me viewing the idea that the universe at large is self aware because we are self aware that get's me. If the universe at large is self aware, then the lowly atom is self aware in the same sense of scale (which the OP loves scales!).

reply to post by sirnex


We are so limited by the universe. We cannot see many things in the universe, and we cannot feel, smell, and hear many things as well. To think we have all answers is stupid. Now I do respect you Sirnex, I enjoy your debates against bsbray, because you are so persistent But even though I know you have very logical reason to believe what you do. You honestly have to know that "we as humans" hardly know anything about the universe, because we are so limited by our senses and dogma. Agreed? We cannot know how the universe works completely there are tons of phenomena out there. So you honestly cannot be 100% certain that there is no intelligent mechanism behind the universe. Like what Roger Penrose said, since entropy becomes more random over time, the universe when it first started it might have been in a highly organized state. But who knows. Like I said we are only human.

reply to post by Maddogkull

We are so limited by the universe. We cannot see many things in the universe, and we cannot feel, smell, and hear many things as well. To think we have all answers is stupid. Now I do respect you Sirnex, I enjoy your debates against bsbray, because you are so persistent But even though I know you have very logical reason to believe what you do. You honestly have to know that "we as humans" hardly know anything about the universe, because we are so limited by our senses and dogma. Agreed?

I absolutely agree, which is why I disagree with humanizing that which we know nothing about.

We cannot know how the universe works completely there are tons of phenomena out there. So you honestly cannot be 100% certain that there is no intelligent mechanism behind the universe.

Lack of knowledge is not proof of perceived fact or belief. While I can't say one hundred percent for sure that there is no intelligence behind the universe, I can certainly say for sure that anything a man says is true without evidence of truth is invariably untrue.

Like what Roger Penrose said, since entropy becomes more random over time, the universe when it first started it might have been in a highly organized state. But who knows. Like I said we are only human.

This in no way helps the case for self awareness as it doesn't imply self awareness at all.

You are not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your #ing khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world. Tyler Durden

If one mans trash is anothers treasure, What would the universe consider us as, maiby our trash is its treasure. Maiby our mission on earth is to litter it with plastic bottles, and other things that humans create. Then when we go extinct all our stuff will be used by another species as fuel. like dinosaurs and other biomass, are used by us as oil today. Or maiby we are the universe, or we could be the sinapses the the planet uses as a process of coming in to being/awareness. So many if's who knows.

reply to post by sirnex


The universe would not be intelligent as we know it, it would be literally all seeing and all knowing, because well it is everything...

"I can certainly say for sure that anything a man says is true without evidence of truth is invariably untrue". How can you say this? so just because i tell you i have a tree outside which produces half lemons half oranges, (which i actually do) and YOU have no proof of this it is "invariably untrue"?

Good posts,

Again, the universe has to be things like aware and intelligent because we are aware and intelligent.

We can't be something the universe is not. This is science. If someone says the universe isn't aware or intelligent then they have to explain how these things evolved outside of the universe.

How did these things evolve outside the wave function of subatomic particles? The wave function of subatomic particles contains every configuration of matter or every probable state. We are only seeing a small aspect of the wave function because of decoherence.

There's many other probable states that we don't measure.

Everything evolves into the infinite Mind. Space, time and matter evolve into infinity at Planck scales.

Originally posted by Gigantea Rosa
Some have gone on to great lengths as to argue that the Universe is the God in which people spoke.

Out of speech came a word. Out of a word came an understanding. Out of understanding came the truth. If people observe the universe (aka everything) and give it meaning - people can will eventually know everything. Everything being God.

Originally posted by OLDMATE
reply to post by sirnex

 

I said nothing about humans in the scale of things, no i dont beleive we trump everything else. The fingernail very well may be concious, but not in the same sense as humans are.

This is just ridiculous.

The fingernail is you. If you cut it off, its still you. The DNA is still there. But what good is it to argue if it is conscious if it is still you? And if the fingernail degrades into something else? well then you are apart of that.

The wrong question is being asked. It's not that the fingernail isn't conscious, its that the fingernail is still you and always will be, and you are conscious. That's all that matters.

And since the human consciousness can't really be defined, except that we are "aware", it is pointless to say other things are not conscious because, we don't know how it is. We just know we are aware.

Well the concept of the traditional 'all-knowing' God is one i find hard to swallow considering we have zero evidence to support this. Besides ancient to fairly recent scripture of the dominant religions which pretty much all stems from rituals and practices of paganism - which in turn are the superstitions of man.

As for Gaia - well the earth ... See moremight be alive in a deep rooted way, trees are a necessity for all life above the oceans and the gases and ecology that sustain creatures below the ocean stems from the breakdown of rock, mineral and decaying matter. I can picture the earth as a whole, but i don't think that is God either, rather just a living ball spinning through a billion streams of energy. As with anything it goes through phases, tectonic movements to shift the land , volcanoes to release the pressure etc etc

The universe being alive? Yeah if the earth is alive, and we're alive - then by logic or imagination there's gotta be more life out there. But maybe we won't recognise it, because it is not even visible to any of our senses.... Is a quasar alive? Yes in the sense that a billion billion billion electrons are communicating and reacting with each other.

But going full circle, just because the light of a distant star changes the structure of a pigment cell on earth, or causes a famine - doesn't mean it's a god.

It could all just be chance, by chance i mean i chuck a brick into a canal and that brick dislodges an old box and by chance someone eventually finds that old box and inside that old box is an unclaimed winning lottery ticket and that geezer then goes on to win 10 billion quid.

There's an even better chance that i chuck a brick into a canal and nothing happens. Nobody gets rich and nobody gets poor.

Basically it doesn't make me a god IF i made that stranger rich completely by accident, much in the same way an exploding supernova doesn't prove the existence of intelligent omnipotency.

But imagine if i then somehow some one saw me chuck that brick and then noticed the guy get rich. He writes a book about it.

I imagine humans would then all start chucking bricks into a canal , all trying to get rich - all these people then split off to different canals, and start arguing over which canal, and which brick.... and they start ... See morefighting and claiming waterways, and many ducks get injured but they all get old and die and none of them uncover any more hidden treasures.

And then the next few generations keep trying, but eventually everyone forgets why they throwing bricks into the canal.

It just becomes the thing to do...

Until one dominant brick throwing ritualist comes up with the mad idea of draining all the canals of the world, seeking hidden treasure.