Tin soldiers and Nixon coming...

reply to post by Truth1000


I'm looking for some documentation. I believe that the Colonel was on 60 Minutes.

reply to post by JIMC5499


Far worse than KGB, I am afraid. Other accounts in this article speak of gunfire before the M1's were fired. Yet in reviewing the NPR recordings, I cannot distinguish preliminary gunfire of a different caliber or powder load.


source

It also turned out that the FBI had its own informant and agent-provocateur roaming the crowd, a part-time Kent State student named Terry Norman, who had a camera. Mr. Norman also was armed with a snub-nosed revolver that FBI ballistics tests, first declassified in 1977, concluded had indeed been discharged on that day.

[edit on 4-5-2010 by Ahabstar]

Originally posted by silent thunder
Click the link to Light a virtual candle for the victims of Kent State.

Thank you for that.

Ahab, thanks for the thread. It's good to remember our past...

reply to post by jibeho


Hello I wanted to take the time to say thank you to everyone that has posted. This has given me some very much needed insight into the events that happened while I was a child. I am 43 years old so have no first hand knowledge of these events. But I tell you what, ATS'ers are a very thoughtful and informed group of people and I am very glad that I was able to find you all, as this has enabled me to be more informed. That is the key. The more information one can have the better they are able to make an 'informed' decision. So thanks again, love the time and energy that you all put in to these discussions.

It should be mentioned again that the people who fired were National Guard.

That means these were citizen soldiers. When they wern't at Kent State they probably worked at nearby stores and businesses.

Just to differentiate between Guard and Federal Military, you can serve 20 years in the Guard, retire and you will not be a veteran or considered eligible for VA benefits. The only way they get veteran status is to be activated on federal orders for over 90 days.

So again, don't confuse the Guard with Federal troops.

reply to post by Primordial

While I've only just joined in the past few days, I have been lurking here on ATS for the better part of 2 years. I am also familiar with the thread of which you speak and the poster who claimed that he and his fellow soldiers would follow orders to fire on his country men. While I would like to think that his claims were just so much puffery I do know that the worst atrocities commited against a people are often commited by their own govt's.
I look forward to being able to contribute in a semi-intelligent manner to threads which I find to be interesting and thought provoking and hope to share information which others may not be aware of. I hope to bring a little light to the darkness and help others to open their eyes to truly see what is going on around them.

Originally posted by Truth1000
Fine, earthdude.

Everyone wants you dead.

Sleep well tonight.

I am serious. I have been threatened with being shot twice, just for speaking out the truth about the war. The warmongers back their patritotism with violence, not logic.

reply to post by Ahabstar


EVERYONE should listen to that song by Neil Young and then listen to the Youngbloods do "Let's get Together". That song should be played on loud speakers EVERYWHERE.

SCREW THE ELITE!!!

But show them love and they will disappear someday soon!!

It really takes alot of bravery to stick a flower in a gun barrel of a person that wants to kill you. It takes much more bravery than fighting a war.

I know I already posted one song, but I couldn't help myself..

What better way to pay tribute to the Movement that led to today's tragic anniversary.. good music.

Again, thanks OP for posting and allowing me to partake in solidarity with all of you today.

Resistance is Peace.

Originally posted by dherik
reply to post by fordrew

 

I just don't see that happening anymore. With the right to refuse an unlawful order i.e. opening fire on a peaceful protest. Most, maybe not every soldier would/could do that to his fellow citizens. I know this was brought up during some of my training in the Air Force.

No order to fire was ever shown to have been given, hence no opportunity to disobey an unlawful order.

"Peaceful" protest seems to be somewhat subjective when relegate to memory. Personally, I wouldn't consider people throwing rock and bottles at me, burning buildings down and starting other fires, and trying to surround me and cut me off from escape to be all that "peaceful".

I lived not far from there when this happened. I was 11 years old at the time, and even at that age, I can recall thinking "what a bunch of loons. Don't college educated folks know better than to throw rocks at folks with GUNS?"

Nevertheless, coming home from school and seeing the news came as somewhat of a shock.

I remember this happening...just a kid, but I remember it.

Let's go back even further...during the 1930s. WWI vets were mad that they had nothing to ive on after serving their country, and set up a shanty town as a protest on the Washington, DC mall...right in front of the monuments.

Roosevelt responded by ordering Douglas McArthur and his troops to disperse the mob and tear down the shanty town. And they did, veterans were shot and killed by US troops in the shadows of the US capitol.

Make no mistake, it happened then and could happen again... and at some point, probably will.

reply to post by earthdude


If only it were as simple as you make it out to be. If only it were as simple as war is bad so we should not have wars. Sadly that is the not reality.

I doubt people hate you for being anti-war. It's likely more a case of them trying to get you to understand we live in a dangerous world and war cannot always be avoided.

The world is like a bad neighborhood with gangs. Sometimes you can avoid the gangs and pretend they are not there, but there comes a point were innocent peoples only choice is to fight back. There have been times in our history when war was the best and only choice.

This thread does not even begin to paint the whole picture of the country at that time. Kent State as horrible as it was was a tiny part of the picture. Those peaceful protesters and those scared shaking men in uniform were the same exact people who lives followed a different path. Many of the National Guard were also students of the same age. Those protesters could no more have disbanded to avoid the conflict than the Guardsman could have not eventually pulled the triggers on their guns.

Sadly history is rewritten by both sides on any story. There is the truth. Then there are the two biased versions presented by each of the opposing sides. You can't just pull up old news footage of an event like that and say aha, I understand it now, even though you have no notion of the context.

The National Guardsman and the students were all victims, they all lost that day. Sadly those who won that day are everything from Professors who are teaching false history and ideals to our children, to high ranking elected officials in our government. The winners were the true radicals who were behind the true cause of that tragedy. I call them winners only because they orchestrated and wanted just what happened. While pretending to want peace on the outside, on the inside they wanted it happen exactly as it did.

That confrontation was years in the making and the real cause was the radical anarchists who usurped the peace movement to their own evil ends. Many of the so called leaders of the peace movement were as phony as a three dollar bill and could have cared less about peace.

In addition to the Vietnam War, there was a war of ideals and idea's taking place. We thought we were protesting for peace and love, when in fact we were being manipulated by evil men.

Those of us who sat peacefully in doorways and thought we were saving the world, did not go away, sell out or change our life views. We grew up and faced reality. Some wandered off to the Communes and hid from the world, telling themselves they mattered. Most of us simply got hit with reality and woke up from the fantasy world that existed in our childish minds. Some let the drugs take them over when they could not face the real world as it is and was.

In the end when the Troops were pulled out, we learned another lesson. We learned that an act of peace can cause more death and suffering than war. The actions that lead to the pullout caused far more deaths than the war itself.

Sadly those who manipulated us now control the schools and our country. They never were fighting for peace and love unfortunately. The radical movement that mislead us in our youth has once again reared its ugly head today with the same evil people in control. They have come out of hiding beyond the public view and taken over the entire government.

Only when you realize that the Guardsman were as much victims as the protesters were, will you understand what happened that day.

reply to post by jibeho


You are correct. When the National Guard was provoked and cornered by the crowd, they were frightened and fired on the crowd. This event had more to do with not following orders than following orders, not training for crowd control, and superiors sending in the troops at the wrong time with no real goals or purpose. Add in the crowd, who felt empowered because they were part of a mass protest that could chase the armed ONG around throwing rocks, somehow assuming that the ONG would not use deadly force when cornered. Protests and sit ins were all the rage and many idolized certain anti-establishment leaders who later turned out to be establishment wannabees. The students were strongly protesting an unjust war in a country that they normally wouldn't know existed nor would care about ,except for the possibility that they would soon be drafted if they lost their S-1 deferments and be at risk of going there.

Originally posted by earthdude

I am serious. I have been threatened with being shot twice, just for speaking out the truth about the war. The warmongers back their patritotism with violence, not logic.

Somehow, I don't think you are telling the whole story in context here. People don't pull a gun on you just for espousing peace and love. Unless of course you combine it with anarchy, throwing bottles and rocks, destroying public and private property and you are the same as those who tricked us at the time of Kent State.

We had two kinds of protesters. Real and fake. The fake ones said the same words but they pushed for violence and in fact incited it. People like Bill Ayers who claimed to be for peace were in fact only for themselves and forcing their idea's on everyone else. Violence was their stock and trade. Are you one of them? Do you refer to yourself as an anarchist? Do you throw rocks or bottles at Cops? Are you constantly in physical fights with people you don't agree with? Do you get in peoples faces trying to force your points of view upon them? Do you damage property and pretend it is part of a protest? Are you real or fake?

reply to post by Blaine91555


Man, I really had a lot of interests in your posts until you started spouting off in generalities about anarchism.

Anyone that represents their self as an anarchist, yet promotes violence is not a true anarchist. Nihilist perhaps, but you paint with a pretty broad brush when you try to lump the two together.

Also, I don't hold anything against you and I starred your posts because I really agree with a lot of what you said.

Cheers.

reply to post by Blaine91555


I would urge people who want further insight into this time to read the book The Whole World Is Watching by Mark Gerzon written (I think) around 1968 or 1969. He is still writing and is also a "motivational speaker". Googling him is interesting. Of course, it all depends on your mindset (some will be outraged & some will think it's absolutely great) I read the book the first time in 1971 & several times until my mid 20s; trying to get ahold of just WHAT was bugging me about it. Something wasn't setting right- it was "off". I concluded I just didn't get it, but I'm going to read it again.

I am not in any way rationalizing what happened at Kent State. I was 14 yrs old when that happened & was very disturbed by it- many of my friends were also & had siblings protesting at other schools. But imo, you are entirely correct, Blaine, in saying that we don't grasp the whole story. In hindsight, it seems like, in a way, our media really hasn't changed that much. They were not so much more open, honest & thorough as we like to think. There were people that the average person wouldn't even be aware of or connect, that they covered for. The protests about the war in VN were not simple at all. That whole time, from the early 60s, was complicated & sometimes, very, very contrived & exploitive. It's interesting to talk to people my age that I've met as an adult and hear stories from some who were...more IN it; in California or New York at that time.
I haven't seen the interview or ever heard about the KGB agent or contradictions to the National Guard firing on the students. But I'm going to go look for what I can find. The neoCons, SDS, the Weathermen...all of that stuff is really creepy in the context of today. It's like Hunter S Thompson is hysterical- all fun & games, until you stop & THINK about what the realities would be if that stuff really happened around you. Or came to pass as it was intended. Most of this generation- mine, romanticize it as very heady (no pun intended) & magic- & it was, usually. But in some places, it was serious business & intense & very deadly for somebody, even if that didn't play out.

At Kent State, the national guard didnt know the details!
that is the problem
Our military forces do not feel it is inportant to know details
thus
we have very admirable people thrown into a situation that they know nothing about!

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Yes, I appreciate the light a candle post also and did light a candle.

I was talking to General Eyes last evening on Chat so found this thread today and have read through it.

I was a student at Kent State University in 1957 through 1959, and May 4 is an important date for me to remember also. So it was quite a shock in 1970 when teaching in California to learn of this incident at KSU.

Members here have pointed out that the entire nation was in turmoil at that time. Governor Rhodes had a difficult responsibility in determining how to bring about peace in a disturbed city. Flaunting authority is something that all who lose childhood soon learn to understand when becoming an adult and trying to enforce the rule of law and order.

It is a sorry chapter in Ohio history and for Kent State University to have to bear. However, in reading the story as I have done since all the threads are posted I will say that the cause of it reminded me of the story of Alexander the Great's battle with Thebes. Trigger happy people will bring about a stampede.

In fact, I believe now that most likely professional troublemakers did help to foster this unfortunate incident. Times were turbulent, and authority figures were in jeopardy.

It can happen again. It most likely will. Once a law is set in motion, it is difficult to change it naturally.

reply to post by Ahabstar

I did think that, if you were to mention the recording at all, you would have included the information that there were what seemed to be four pistol shots fired about one minute before the command to fire was given. (No, I'm not taking sides on this matter.)

Those shots are ascribed, by some, to a slightly deranged student with law enforcement fantasies . . . Heck, here's the article, one of many: Reporting on Kent State Recording.