Arizona has done the nation a favor.

reply to post by daskakik


TPTB ARE corrupt themselves cause they are trying to implement their agenda anyway they can. They are just as corrupt as the illegals probably more.

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry
It's amazing (ok not really) and upsetting to see ATS bow down to this oppressive bill.

"Oh it's to kick illegals out of the country."

Yeah, and to detain anyone who is suspected of being an illegal. Who carries actual proof they are a citizen of this country with them around? This bill is repulsive and vile and I'm disgusted so many ATS members support it.

I thought we were suppose dislike the idea of POLICE having too much power? Is the talk about Martial Law really BS made up by the conspiracy theorists? Well, this thread and many others is proving it to be just that. You talk about too much power authorities have and speak of "revolutions" but yet, you support such a new law. Awesome.

Thanks.

Well I think we can chalk that up to the mental disconnect of the wingnut crowd. The government can have all the power it wants, so long as they aren't subjected to it... just the brown people. Doesn't matter that legally they can be detained as well. Because they know that semantics aside this is about race and they wont be.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


I loathe it when people, particularly those who have "truth" in their names, play the emotion card but offer absolutely no "truth."

Truth:
The vast majority of the protesters are unabashedly self interested. They dont want their friends, themselves, their families, etc., deported because they are illegal.

They are NOT concerned with what is good for America as a nation or the states they are flooding into. They are NOT concerned with what is good for the majority of legal citizens. They are also NOT concerned with all the other immigrants who are waiting patiently and following the rules to enter this country legally.

They are concerned with THEIR interests. With what THEY can get from America, and THEIR "right" to get it.



Truth;

When actual American citizens try to control the flow of immigrants into the country, (which is in THEIR self interest) they are labeled Nazi's, or racists, or otherwise demonized.


Both parties are self interested here. There is no difference between them morally. Americans who are self interested and want to control the flow of immigrants into the US are not 'bad."

There is a difference between them LEGALLY however.

Americans do have the legitimate right to want to control the flow of immigrants into the US. Illegal immigrants do not have the "right" to thumb their noses at the law.

Truth

People who just play the race card, and run off emotions usually dont have a rational argument to substitute for it. They dont have a solution, a better way of dealing with the problem. They just have an emotional card and they throw it in to stir things up and offer NOTHING towards a solution.

Why dont some of you emotionally sensitive people who are playing the race card put your talents and minds to work and actually come up with a compromise that would be good for America. Uncontrolled and unregulated flows of immigrants from Mexico is not good for America. Give us a way to crack down on illegals that you think is NOT racist.

Or admit you dont care at all about the country, and what is good for her and her people, and stop pretending you have claim to some moral high ground.

And for the record, this isn't about 'brown skinned people'.

If we had a bunch of frenchies from up north, walking in, refusing to learn the language, stating their right to be here illegally, ferrying in pot and coc aine, human smugglers taking shots at the border patrol up north, you can bet your sweet ass there would be just as much stink about that.

So save it. No one wants to hear it.

[edit on 1-5-2010 by Darkrunner]

reply to post by Darkrunner


They are playing the race card because for the last 40 odd years, it has worked. All you had to do to get white Americans to shut up was to accuse us of being racist.

No more. I know there are legitimate racists out there, (of all colors, ironically) but we need to refuse to buckle every time the race card is played. This isnt about race. Its about people who dont care about our laws, who have no respect for the country. Wanting to come to America to get what is good from it, for yourself and your family, is NOT respect. Thats just self interest. And yes, most immigrants to America are self interested in that way, no matter what country they come from.

The ones who immigrate legally are also self interested, but they RESPECT the country itself too. Its laws, its customs, its regulations. How do they prove this? By following them from the start.

We need to be unapologetic about rejecting those who wish to come to this country and who have no respect for it.

Originally posted by Darkrunner
And for the record, this isn't about 'brown skinned people'.

If we had a bunch of frenchies from up north, walking in, refusing to learn the language, stating their right to be here illegally, ferrying in pot and coc aine, human smugglers taking shots at the border patrol up north, you can bet your sweet ass there would be just as much stink about that.

So save it. No one wants to hear it.

[edit on 1-5-2010 by Darkrunner]

Well it is and it is not at the same time...

The motivation may not be race based

But the fact of the matter is the people who are the subject of this effort are typically brown skinned.

It would serve all of you to add that to the mental file...

One does not cancel out the other, both aspects can survive independent of one another. To recognize both does not make you racist, however to ignore one over the
other is foolish.

I am not directing this AT you

it is just you helped me introduce something that is being ignored

I don't have to research, it's totally obvious.you just proved my point for me by saying 6 million of them are employed illegally. If their employers wouldn't hire them, why would else would they be here?

And you just proved my point as to who is actually lazy. So lazy are you, that when data is spoon fed to you, you still refuse to do the necessary thinking, erroneously taking that data and misinterpreting it. That report did not state that 6 million were employed illegally, but stated that of the 12 million here illegally, half of them work in the three different fields I mentioned. Whatever point you think you are trying to make, your point that honest citizens should be imprisoned for doing nothing more than hire a person, is an outrageous idea that only further advocates tyranny in this country.

because there's no official documentation, because they don't have to insure them or put them on any sort of official payroll, hence why they hire illegals and why illegals come here. they KNOW employers will cut whatever costs they can, especially in these trying times.

There are plenty of illegal immigrants on an "official" payroll, having used forged documents to get the jobs. Further, there are plenty of employers who have discovered who the hired were in fact illegal immigrants, and attempted to inform ICE only to be ignored. You can make blanket generalizations all you want, if you honestly think the only work illegal immigrants get is from standing in front of Home Depot all day, you have no clue as to what obvious is.

Technology costs money to purchase and maintain. illegal laborers are less than a fraction of the cost.

This only further demonstrates your profound ignorance. Again, what that NPR report argued was that if illegal immigration were reduced, any perceived effect they had on wages would remain minimal, as businesses, when faced with paying higher wages, versus technologies that can accomplish the same, the clear and obvious choice is technology as it is far easier to maintain than humans are, and can be purchased rather than strike a contract with.

perhaps that's not exactly what you said, but when did I even mention any kind of social program before you mentioned it?

It is irrelevant what you have to say about social programs, that they are being used to subsidize illegal immigration is not in doubt. California has a serious problem with this, as did Arizona when Janet Naplitano was Governor of that state, this woman now being the Secretary of Homeland Security, it is equally obvious that with her in this position, little to nothing will be done about protecting our borders from massive illegal crossings.

when did I say amnesty is the way to go?

It matters not what you have to say about amnesty, that politicians are making loud speeches advocating amnesty should not be in doubt. This vocal support of this policy only encourages more illegal immigration across borders a federal government refuses to protect.

I'm making the point that we're patronizing the wrong people since they have no money and will always find new ways to come here if there's work, even after being deported.

You are clearly advocating imprisoning citizens as a solution to illegal immigration rather than acknowledging the problem stems from the failure of government to do the job they were tasked to do.

arguing with you is ridiculous. you think people who hire illegals and make it easier for them to be in the country are honest people. you think I'm all for some social program I didn't mention then tell me what I think about it is irrelevant. you think one man's opinion (he was better as a middle east correspondent) is the truth. I don't think any sort of gov't support for these people is good, in fact, I would agree with you that it's a contributing factor to the problem, but not enough be anything more than complaining about things we can't change.

I live in CA, I am mexican, and I have numerous relatives here and some of them are illegal. they've been able to stay here because people keep hiring them; it's the ONLY reason they've been able to stay here. Is that irrelevant? are you going to completely ignore this, too?

Also I'm willing to be my life that the illegals who have stolen information didn't steal it themselves. it was given to them by either the people who snuck them in or the people who hired them. It doesn't even occur to most of them that they can do this. My own family in mexico just got the damn internet last week.

also how does the sentence "12 million are here illegally half of them work in 3 fields" not equal 6 million illegals all hired by people? what's half of 12 million? because that's not literally what he said, that isn't the figure? help me understand this.

How can it be cheaper to purchase and maintain technology when these employers can set any type of rules they want for these illegals? they are literally at the mercy of their employers, who probably use this against them while they screw them over financially. It's much easier to arrange a contract when you have complete control over the deal. NPR argues that they don't make enough it to be substantial...because the employers make it this way. I was hired and paid under the table at a business, I immediately quit after the employer withheld wages from me. Most illegals do not have this option.

and yes I am advocating for the arrest of citizens who are breaking the law. regardless of anyone's stance on this, they would tell you the same thing. Anyone who makes it easier for a criminal to be a criminal is a criminal themselves.

reply to post by Janky Red


I agree to a point.

The people that say this is strictly a racist thing..they can get bent. The 'race card' doesn't work anymore. I've worked near the border in question. It has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with the people living there being tired of having to put up with this #.

In the end, the feds are to blame. Both parties turn a blind eye to this, because THOSE ARE POTENTIAL VOTERS! Let's just not do anything.

Well Arizona is tired of the government worrying about everything else BUT the border. And if you look at polls of hardworking mexican-americans that came to this country the right way, they aren't for this nonsense either. I know. Some of my best friends in the world are mexican-americans I served with in the Marines. The consensus among them is "WTF?" My closest friend lives in Albuquerque, and I recently asked him his opinion on the matter. He said "My grandmother saved her money, filled out the paperwork, came here and built a kick ass restaurant (with the hottest damn salsa I've ever had, I might add) and these people just walk in and do what they want?"

And I can understand his frustration.

Something needs to be done.

Well I don't know about AZ doing the nation a favor
but it might be they did the Pentagon a solid in getting them one step closer to the NORCOM project...

Remember two things... things are often not what they appear to be
and what you dont know about can get lots and lots of people killed

go read and learn
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 1-5-2010 by DaddyBare]

Originally posted by Darkrunner
reply to post by Janky Red

 

I agree to a point.

The people that say this is strictly a racist thing..they can get bent. The 'race card' doesn't work anymore. I've worked near the border in question. It has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with the people living there being tired of having to put up with this #.

In the end, the feds are to blame. Both parties turn a blind eye to this, because THOSE ARE POTENTIAL VOTERS! Let's just not do anything.

Well Arizona is tired of the government worrying about everything else BUT the border. And if you look at polls of hardworking mexican-americans that came to this country the right way, they aren't for this nonsense either. I know. Some of my best friends in the world are mexican-americans I served with in the Marines. The consensus among them is "WTF?" My closest friend lives in Albuquerque, and I recently asked him his opinion on the matter. He said "My grandmother saved her money, filled out the paperwork, came here and built a kick ass restaurant (with the hottest damn salsa I've ever had, I might add) and these people just walk in and do what they want?"

And I can understand his frustration.

Something needs to be done.

I think you are missing part of my point...

Racism is not what I am trying to point out, the problems are obvious...

My point is people are going to feel targeted, because they are brown, therefore
they are going to be defensive.

I will give you another example

When the FED talks about neutralizing "right wing terrorist groups", this boards lights up in protest. Not because this board is filled with terrorists, but because there is a small common thread that is shared via the political outlook.

In this case the same thing occurs because there is common thread, which is the skin
or heritage.

There are two ways to look at the brown skinned aspect, looking at it from the racist
angle is causing many to misdiagnose the motivations of the opposition in many cases.

The politicians CAN use this confused dichotomy, but not if everyone decides to understand, this whole thing will be less of a tool for political agenda and more for
outcome.

reply to post by piddles

arguing with you is ridiculous

And yet, you follow with six paragraphs that do exactly that.

you think people who hire illegals and make it easier for them to be in the country are honest people.

I think your foolish idea of imprisoning people who do wind up hiring illegal immigrants will most certainly adversely affect many honest people who did their own due diligence in requesting proper identification, and have no idea of a their employee's legal status. I think your idea of imprisoning employers for doing what employers do is tantamount to kicking dogs for barking.

you think I'm all for some social program I didn't mention then tell me what I think about it is irrelevant.

I don't care if you are for social programs or not, I am asserting that these social programs have done much to encourage illegal immigration.

you think one man's opinion (he was better as a middle east correspondent) is the truth.

I think nothing of the sort, and merely offered one link out of many to demonstrate your willful ignorance and laziness.

I don't think any sort of gov't support for these people is good, in fact, I would agree with you that it's a contributing factor to the problem, but not enough be anything more than complaining about things we can't change.

And while you claim you don't advocate social welfare programs you insist they are programs we can't change. Hell, who needs your advocacy of social welfare programs if it were true that they couldn't be changed? They, of course, can be changed and should be.

live in CA, I am mexican, and I have numerous relatives here and some of them are illegal. they've been able to stay here because people keep hiring them; it's the ONLY reason they've been able to stay here. Is that irrelevant? are you going to completely ignore this, too?

I live in California as well, and I have seen employers attempt to keep illegal immigrants from gaining employment with their organizations, and I have witnessed with my own two eyes and ears, two separate employers, upon discovering of a persons illegal status as immigrant, report this to the ICE, only to be ignored. You ignore this in order to push forth your own anti-business agenda. I live in a huge metropolis where illegal immigrants sell their wares on public sidewalks, clearly foregoing employment for their own business opportunities, and dealing with many products from the black market. I live in an area filled with illegal immigrants who are determined to stay regardless of who will or won't employ them.

Also I'm willing to be my life that the illegals who have stolen information didn't steal it themselves. it was given to them by either the people who snuck them in or the people who hired them. It doesn't even occur to most of them that they can do this. My own family in mexico just got the damn internet last week.

Your own anecdotal evidence is hardly worthy of any statistical data, and only goes to show that ignorance runs in the family. Betting your own life to support your assertions is a foolish bet.

also how does the sentence "12 million are here illegally half of them work in 3 fields" not equal 6 million illegals all hired by people? what's half of 12 million? because that's not literally what he said, that isn't the figure? help me understand this.

Six million work in three fields, what fields the other six million work in was not reported, nor was it reported that six million reside here illegally without employment. It would be foolish to assume based upon this that only six million are working.

How can it be cheaper to purchase and maintain technology when these employers can set any type of rules they want for these illegals?

Again, you misinterpret what has been argued. What that report argued was that wages are not noticeably affected by the influx of illegal immigration, and that if illegal immigration were reduced and an employer faced with the prospect of paying more for the same work, not to mention the current health care legislation, over using technology to do that same work, technology is clearly the prudent choice.

Your assertion that employers can set any type of rules regarding employment for illegals clearly ignores the market principles of supply and demand, which should not come as any surprise given your clear agenda of demonizing business.

they are literally at the mercy of their employers, who probably use this against them while they screw them over financially.

One can only presume that you use "literally" to mean "in a strict sense" but then turn around and use the word "probably" in that same sentence. I am not attempting to dismiss your feelings, as your feelings are just as real and as equally valid as anyone else, however they are your feelings, and you are not offering up any quantifiable data.

It's much easier to arrange a contract when you have complete control over the deal.

The law of contracts demand that all parties named in that contract are in agreement with the terms or said contract is null and void.

NPR argues that they don't make enough it to be substantial...because the employers make it this way.

NPR made no such argument, you are making this argument and are too lazy to even bother to find any data that might support your argument.

I was hired and paid under the table at a business, I immediately quit after the employer withheld wages from me. Most illegals do not have this option.

Everybody has options. Everybody.

and yes I am advocating for the arrest of citizens who are breaking the law.

The Constitution for the United States of America is the Supreme Law of the Land, and that document has clearly mandated the government created by We the People, protect our borders. Further, much legislation has subsequently followed declaring illegal immigration a crime yet very little has been done by the Executive branch of the federal government to enforce those laws. This is criminal. This is the:

Anyone who makes it easier for a criminal to be a criminal is a criminal themselves.

That you are speaking to, not citizens just trying to make their business work, but the outlaw federal government, yet you would advocate placing people in prison simply because they hired another person, and what's worse, you would willfully misrepresent the truth in regards to law of contract, technology and even business itself in order to advocate your anti-business agenda.

reply to post by Angus123


So besides being a coward and hiding behind race.....

Tell us how you really feel?

People should not be prosecuted for their race, color, ethnicity, religion blah blah blah.. but guess what?

THEY SHOULDN'T BE PROTECTED BY IT EITHER!

So... under your astute liberal logic.. because they are brown .. they should not be prosecuted for their crimes.

How the bloody hell does that make sense?

Please..

I am dieing to know. You want to throw the race card out there, then lets talk race and how criminals can hide behind their color to be protected from the law.

Originally posted by Janky Red

The motivation may not be race based

But the fact of the matter is the people who are the subject of this effort are typically brown skinned.

It would serve all of you to add that to the mental file...

Ok, its added to the file. Whats the point?

Sure, most illegals in the US at the moment are tan,

en.wikipedia.org...

The illegal immigrant population of the United States in 2008 was estimated by the Center for Immigration Studies to be about 11 million people, down from 12.5 million people in 2007.[2] According to a Pew Hispanic Center report, in 2005, 57% of illegal immigrants were from Mexico; 24% were from other Latin American countries, primarily from Central America;[3] 9% were from Asia; 6% were from Europe; and 4% were from the rest of the world.

Their own tan skin is the ammunition they are using against us here in the US. (Despite the fact that not only white Americans are opposed to illegals flooding the borders)

It IS making it hard to come up with ways to target illegals without appearing to target just Hispanics, but its not racism. They deport white illegals too, and immigrating from the UK or any European country to the US or vice versa is not easier simply because you are white.

Why is this round of the illegal immigration issue so heated up? One, we are economically strapped as a country. Americans are hurting economically, and when people are suffering, they have less sympathy for those who are competing with them for jobs. Its just human nature.


Not to mention many of these poor, innocent, (sarcasm) illegal immigrants are racist themselves. Most of the derogatory comments I hear regarding skin color are coming from the Mexicans and their sympathizers directed towards the white Americans.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


www.abovetopsecret.com...


the above fellow in another thread got my point and distilled further...

Policy lives and dies in the public square, to be successful you must not only address
the issue, but be aware of the court of public opinion.

"CHARGE!!!" is not always the best way to win a battle. In fact, sometimes it is the best way to ensure defeat

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Their own tan skin is the ammunition they are using against us here in the US.

They're trying to play the race card, but it ain't gonna fly.

I love hispanic american culture. The people, the food, the music.

As I've said in previous posts. Something needs to be done. This law isn't it, and it isn't going to last. Anyone with sense sees that.

The solution?

We can't track down every illegal alien in the country right now. Numbering 12-20 million? Say ok, you're in and that's it.

Build a wall. Man it with sensors. Some one cuts the fence in between towers or sensors on the fence posts indicate underground digging? Get people there. I know damn well they have them. Anytime anyone gets within looking distance of Groom Lake there is security there immediately.

It's doable.


[edit on 1-5-2010 by Darkrunner]

Originally posted by Janky Red

Policy lives and dies in the public square, to be successful you must not only address
the issue, but be aware of the court of public opinion.

"CHARGE!!!" is not always the best way to win a battle. In fact, sometimes it is the best way to ensure defeat

So explain to me how legalizing, and giving voting rights to 12 million people or so who have no regard for our laws and our procedures is going to help matters?

You see all these people protesting on TV, and so it LOOKS like the court of public opinion is swaying towards the illegals. But how many of those protesters are voters? What percentage of that crowd is legal? And what percentage of the legal members in that crowd were illegal at one point in time? Perhaps before the last blanket amnesty?

You see where I differ from you in thinking is that I disagree that non-Americans should dictate to us our laws. Our values. Our polices.

I think that Americans should decide. And I personally dont think that giving 10-12 million people who we know for a fact dont give a # about the democratic process and our laws the right to vote is the right thing to do.

Originally posted by Darkrunner

They're trying to play the race card, but it ain't gonna fly.

I love hispanic american culture. The people, the food, the music.

My foster mother was Portuguese/Hawaiian. I have nothing at all against tan skin. Its not about skin. Its about character. You either value acting as a social human being and cooperating, following social rules, legal rules, etc., to benefit the whole, or you dont.

I personally wish we could deport some of our homegrown repeat criminals, but that wouldnt be fair to other countries.

I am all for people being individuals, and I am definitely for civil liberties, but I am also staunchly in support of society working as a collective as well. Its a delicate balance, to support diversity, personal freedoms and the collective good, but it can be done. But those who literally dont care to follow the most basic rules, and then who throw temper tantrums for being called on not following the rules just piss me off. And those who throw hissy fits for being asked to follow the rules are not the sort of people who are going to do the difficult work required to maintain the delicate balance of diversity, personal freedom and the public good.

Their attitude about law and order closely matches the attitude towards law and order the officials and politicians in the country they are leaving seem to hold. In other words, that laws are only to be followed if it suits you to do so. Laws that dont suit you should just be ignored.

Maybe that attitude is the reason the country they are so hot to leave sucks. Maybe we dont want to import it.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

Originally posted by Janky Red

Policy lives and dies in the public square, to be successful you must not only address
the issue, but be aware of the court of public opinion.

"CHARGE!!!" is not always the best way to win a battle. In fact, sometimes it is the best way to ensure defeat

So explain to me how legalizing, and giving voting rights to 12 million people or so who have no regard for our laws and our procedures is going to help matters?

You see all these people protesting on TV, and so it LOOKS like the court of public opinion is swaying towards the illegals. But how many of those protesters are voters? What percentage of that crowd is legal? And what percentage of the legal members in that crowd were illegal at one point in time? Perhaps before the last blanket amnesty?

You see where I differ from you in thinking is that I disagree that non-Americans should dictate to us our laws. Our values. Our polices.

I think that Americans should decide. And I personally dont think that giving 10-12 million people who we know for a fact dont give a # about the democratic process and our laws the right to vote is the right thing to do.

Hold up...

Not saying any of that, I am not talking about illegals or the problem, I am talking about the PROCESS of politics...

I think you are still missing my point.

Which ever "side" can generate enough anger will win in the long run, I am saying it would be in your best interest to learn what does not anger the people who might come in to tip the scale against you.

To see my point you have to step outside of your personally held notions - to make your cause a winning proposition you are gonna have to do the same.

Justifications of anything for or against have NOTHING to do with what I am saying.

the Unreasonable manipulation filled group think of political does... I am thinking about the sport, not the game

If someone else can say this more plainly I would greatly appreciate it.




[edit on 1-5-2010 by Janky Red]

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Having lived in both the us and mexico I can tell you that they are about the same. The standard of living is lower in mexico but then again so is the cost of living. As for law and order they are also about the same. Stop believing the propaganda.

Originally posted by daskakik
Stop believing the propaganda.

Im not basing my opinion of Mexico on propaganda. I am basing my opinion on Mexico on the fact that millions of its citizens are unhappy enough there to leave and come here illegally together with the propaganda. Not to mention all the people I know who have family in Mexico who tell me what a # hole it is, and how they hate it when they have to go down there to visit.