Why More U.S. Expatriates Are Turning In Their Passports

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

You do know that the Australian and European governments assisted in their own collapsed financial institutions right? You do know that only reason why the mandatory measure was added to the bill was because the same people like you came out calling the public option 'fascism'?

You do know that not a single Australian financial institution collapsed during the global economic downturn, don't you ?

And that was due to the worlds best practice prudential regulation applied to financial institutions in Australia...Australian banks are amongst the most secure and profitable in the world...

And funny how this socialist little country completely avoided recession due to said regulations and government stimulus applied cos the private sector packed it in and wouldn't spend...

How'd the US fair out of it all champ ? By all observations its turned into a bigger #hole than it already was...

Might wanna check your facts before painting with such a broad brush in future, eh tiger ? *pats you on the head*

Interesting information here, thank you for posting.. many people do seem to be getting out while they can, and with the way America has been heading, at a faster pace these past years, it is understandable.. reading through some of the replies here a few fellow members have mentioned not wanting their children to grow up in corporation USA for many reasons, its amazing how ones views change after becoming a parent, and all you want then, is safety for ones child(ren)..a secure atmosphere for them to grow in.. i had lived 2 years over seas before returning back to the States, i had our son there, then we stayed for 3 years planning on settling happily there before realizing it wasnt what we (my partner and i) wanted for our son or our family as a whole and made plans to move back out of the country shortly after that.. its better here in a lot of ways in the UK, but all areas are different, we live in a very tiny area of N Wales where for now, life is quiet and calm really (think the Shire in The Lord of The Rings lol)..no big brother cams on every post, the biggest area is over an hour away.. but i fear no where is going to be safe from whatever fall out may come in the future..but for some people, the best option is to not stay, and it saddens me, i remember the love i had for my home land.. its the muppets ruining the constitution and the freedoms of all Americans that should leave the place and never return!

reply to post by rnaa


Man you seriously need to do some research on the way our judicial system works (checks and balances), but I do commend you on your debating skills.
I feel as if I could be having this argument with Alexander Hamilton, the Rothschild lackey who loved the idea of a powerful central government.

You very artfully ignore certain parts of an argument while addressing other parts.

First, I would like for you to address the issue of income, which you ignored, and as I said before is the crux to the argument we are having over the direct unapportioned taxation of the 16th amendment.

How does the Supreme Court define income and why does that apply to the 16th amendment?

Second, it doesn't matter what kind of welfare is supposed to be provided.
This clause that you are referring to is the basis for the 14th amendment, which more or less negates the previous ten (the Bill of Rights), but honestly NONE OF THAT MATTERS.

According to Baron v. Baltimore, we never had access to the first ten anyway, because they were the basis for every state's constitution.
There was no need to enforce federal rights that we were already privy to by the fact that we are state citizens.
The concept of the 14th amendment is totally redundant.

And states rights should always trump federal.
Or at least that is what the 10th tells me.

If you don't believe me, then look into the concepts of incorporation and reverse incorporation.

The bottom line to this argument is that the 14th amendment essentially contracted the enforcement of our rights to the federal government.

This is something that was never meant to happen.

Everything past the 14th Amendment could be considered unconstitutional because the 14th is an adhesion contract that makes everyone a subject of the Federal Government.

It is a contract that we were never a party to negotiating.
THUS AN ADHESION CONTRACT, WHICH IS NOT A LEGAL CONTRACT.

Since you seem to know case law, then you surely are aware of Marbury versus Madison, which clearly states that any laws created by congress or proposed by congress that contradict the original intent of the US Constitution are not constitutional.
Period. End of story.

It does not matter what is written in DC. What is ratified, or what is amended, because....

A jury can always find someone NOT GUILTY because they believe that the law is unjust. And there is not one single thing that anyone can do about it.
And it only takes ONE person to hang a jury.

The last protection built into the US Constitution against the tyranny of a big central government is the concept of JURY NULLIFICATION.

Would you also care to address Sherry Jackson, the ex IRS agent who I would gander knows the law much, much better than you or I?
She makes the exact same argument that I am making, and she is being illegally detained for doing so.

This argument that you and I are having is the exact same argument that was being discussed in the Federalist Papers, especially number 10.

If you want to make this about semantics, then fine.
That seems to be how all of the esquires to the crown (lawyers) have turned our Constitution inside out.

But everyone reading owes it to themselves to investigate the concept of jury nullification.
They owe it to themselves to know what few rights we have left and how to defend them.

As I said before, our rights are GOD GIVEN, and inalienable.
The citizenship issue was never addressed by the founding fathers because they knew that citizenship equals subject.

We have been unknowingly duped into a contract with the federal government to "enforce" our rights. We are "subjects" of the federal government, which is a foreign corporation known as The United States of America.

And I pray to God that you stay in Australia with the other criminals.
(That was a joke dude. I am from the state of Georgia, the original penal colony. I do have respect for your debate skills)

If you live outside the United States for at least 330 days in a calender year, you qualify for a foreign earned income exemption on your first $91.6k (or so) of earnings - I believe a Form-2555 (with EZ version available). If married, it is possible to qualify for both earnings (double).

I think most of those who are giving up their citizenship make well over that amount. In this regard, the US recently passed Capital Controls - forcing foreign banks to withhold 30% on any pass through income, on accounts over $50k. If the laws of the country in which the bank is operating prohibit this in any way, the bank is required to close the account.

In many cases, living outside of the US translates to an improved standard of living. My costs of living are 50% of what they were in the U.S. and my quality of life is dramatically improved.

As many US corporations shipped their jobs overseas... it is worthwhile to consider going to where the jobs have gone. You won't make as much as you did in the U.S. in most cases, but then... cost of living is lower and you get that $91.6k in tax exemptions - so it is distinctly possible that you will come out ahead.

It requires lots of research and developing connections/friends in your target country to be viable; may require learning a new language. Depending on how well off you are financially - you could just go with hiring a good translator. Some countries are excellent retirement destinations - here, for example you can hire a personal nurse for $400-500 for a full month. Get outside the main cities and you can drop that to $200 a month and still be paying the nurse twice the local rate.

However, I envision the United States making it much more difficult to revoke citizenship if the current trend continues. Give it about two years - my guess. Establishing foreign residency and... citizenship is not necessarily easy, suffice that it is increasingly difficult to be "American" in the United States.

It pays to vote with your feet.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Actually what they might be doing is sending deliberately the old generations Americans out while they welcome the newer generations in.
Now if by coincidence the new voters happens they don't know much about freedoms, quality of health care, quality of life, quality of education, global peace, effective low cost military etc etc they won't be voting for people that advocate changes for a better quality of life and of services. Chances are they will be voting for that striper who she run for office, or that boxing dude he won the championship for instance. Governments would have to spend less to appease their voters if they can easily distract them from the issues and still win their votes.
Win win for the Governments.
Kind to think of it, that could also make it more convenient for them to be able to start wars more easily.

But there's more..
If quality of people is degrading in a given superpower, then it should be expected the same will happen in that superpowers sphere of influence.

[edit on 22-4-2010 by spacebot]

This is why you have a social security number.....this is the tracking device for your pay check. we are born into it.....I hate to say it though..the truth is hard to swallow

reply to post by Avamarguy


My family isn't leaving just because of taxes. Not only do we understand we will continue to pay taxes to the US government but we will also be paying taxes to the St Lucian government. I'm looking forward to having an involved hand in my kids' education, whether we are Stateside or abroad. We will be liable to pay our own insurance down there, another cost burden to our family. I'm not sure I understand your anger toward expats ...

Talking North Korea and Yemen to most other nations is talking night and day. Pretty drastic references.

reply to post by Blaine91555


If someone has an unexpected job offer overseas it doesn't necessarily mean they are escapists. It means they're taking up an economical opportunity elsewhere. An expat is still an expat, whatever the reason for being abroad.

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet but what this amounts to is a loss of much needed tax revenue. Seems these are hard working people probably making a good wage. To loose that revenue/work ethic along with the growing numbers of unemployed here at home it doesn't look good for us. Our manufacturing jobs will never come back, too much overhead not profitable enough. Blue collar workers will never get out. Bogged down with debt no country would have them. Those who can leave probably will. I can't say that I blame them. Had things been better most likely they wouldn't have considered it.

If people are successfully finding good employment elsewhere most likely they will stay. Especially if they have children who've grown up there. It just makes sense and certainly there would be benefits in becoming a citizen.

I have seen nothing yet in the way of jobs recovery coming from DC. They are putting all their eggs in one basket hoping the bankers will save us all. When financial institutions can get richer in the global market who needs us. We have always been disposable.

It's like rats leaving a sinking ship pretty soon all that will be left will be the cockroaches or those too stubborn or poor to leave. Kind of like one big Detroit.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Heaven forbid you spend that money on yourself or your family. Well those are max amounts....


Let me help you out. If you go in for a car loan, the lender is not going to want your payment to exceed 25% of your income.

If you go in for a home loan, the lender is not going to want your payment to exceed 25% of your income.

Why on earth would you pay the government more money than you do for your own home and car combined?

50% pay zero, and those between 60k and 135k pay like 24%, so that equals to about 90% plus of the population...geez

I'm in the 33% tax bracket and I'm not bitching.....

Someone else has it worse, you are only getting screwed 2/3rds as bad, so don't complain arguments are really????

There just aren't words for it!

Well if you look around the world America is no different than most other countries when it comes to taxes, but what I was pointing out was that these expats upset with America’s taxes could easily pay more in taxes down under than they did in the US.

Originally posted by silo13

EDIT TO ADD:

Neno, I applaud your post and the though and fortitude I know you posses that can back up each and every word you've posted.

Only one thing I will disagree on.

As I said above, this is where I was born, and this is where I'll die. However, I can certainly see the point of those who opt out, and head for greener pastures.

I too once believed as you do, where I was born was where I would die.
And for reasons I will not post on ATS I had to revise my life on that point.

But - leaving the USA and relocating and taking on a new culture and a new language and system of living is by far NOT a greener pasture, in my opinion.

It's hard. Very hard work each and every day.

Sure, that might not be the case depending on where you go, etc, but for me, it's been a witch with a B.

Do I want to go back, sure I do.

Can I?

No.

peace



[edit on 22-4-2010 by silo13]

Silo, I meant 'greener pastures' in the sense that, as they say, "the grass is always greener on the other side'. It's not necessarily so, but to a number of folks here, it certainly APPEARS so. You have actually alighted in one of, from many folks' perspectives, the better places to be in this tired old world. It surely is hard work, but that sometimes aids slumbers, so it might be considered a trade off of sorts. There are those here who would love the life you live - or at least THINK they would. Probably until it got to the 'hard work' part.

I've been to places where life revolved around a shack made out of scrap lumber and salvaged roofing tin, and every morsel of food was wrenched from the earth by force. For all of that, it was home to the folks who lived there. A wise man once told me that if he had a mansion in Georgia, and a home in hell, he'd sell his mansion and go home. The older I get, and the more I see, the closer I come to grasping the simple truth of that statement.

You seem to have created a home with your labors, and that's more than a lot of folks here can say, and reason enough for satisfaction. The only caveat I have is to keep an eye on that dark cloud at your back, but everything comes at a price, does it not?

You're also absolutely right that the US is not the same place it was even 10 years ago. The accelerated decline is astonishing for those watching it from their front porches, and old enough to remember what WAS against what now IS. I told my dad in 1976, the year of the US bicentennial, that I didn't believe that the US would survive to see a tricentennial. With the benefit of his observations before I came along, he said "You'd be surprised how fast things can go south". He was right (as usual), and I am witness to that decline as we speak. I truly AM surprised, just when I thought I'd seen it all.

Indeed NOW IS the time to roll out for those of a mind to do so who have not already gone. Very much longer, and their positions will be untenable. The rest of us absolutely have to carry the fight to the opposition through the ballot box, with our voices and whatever other strengths we may possess in an effort to arrest the slide, and with any luck at all reverse it. When that effort fails, the options will become sorely limited. It's not gonna be any fun to be here at all then.

Another very valid point you bring up is that folks should learn the local language and culture of their destination BEFORE they buy that ticket. More Americans gets in more trouble overseas by trying to impose their home culture upon folks that have a perfectly good culture of their own, than for any other reason I can think of. Additionally, I've found that when one takes the time to learn the language, and the cultural variations, the 'furriners' (and rethink just WHO is the 'furriner in this situation!) are far more accepting and open. They tend towards a different view, and are less prone to see one as an 'arrogant American'.

One should never say never, and it could turn out that I mis-spoke. I hear that a man should be prepared to pack his bags many times over a lifetime. In the event that I wind up eating crow (it's not like it's never happened before!) and I'm forced by some circumstance or chain of events to expatriate from these shores, I'll pay you a visit. Just look for the raggedy, hobo-looking guy coming up the walk. We'll crack open a bottle and watch the Grand Lady throw a tantrum!

The main reason for this is probably very simple.

Switzerland unemployment rate: 4.10%

Australia unemployment rate: 5.30%

The reasons for these lower unemployment rates however are more complex and you may have touched on some of the factors in your thread.

[edit on 22-4-2010 by 4ortunate1]

'The wise see the evil and hide themselves' Proverbs (Bible). I see this country headed for Revolutionary War II, if not preempted by another major event. My family has been here for over 300 years, and fought in every war. I am one of the few who see what to do, and do it. So I would get actively involved, and possibly 'inactivated' as in imprisoned or dead. So, Eucador. Even if nothing happens, it is better for me there.

reply to post by 4ortunate1
There is something you apparently are not taking into account. Fed, State, county, and local SPENDING equals over 75% of US GNP. So what is the actual taxation? Duh! Over 75%! Remember, you have a bunch of politicians who have been trained in prevarication and deception, at 'Law' schools. Is it any wonder they are concealing the taxes? And now they talk about an additional VAT tax, that is 'only' at a low rate, just like the income tax when we came down with it. But it mestastasizes into a big tumor, quite quickly. My prediction; when the tax gets over 100%, people will quickly realize it profits them nothing to work, unless under the table. Like Russia, and China. China now has free enterprise, just no civil libertys. But the point is that the US has a MUCH higher actual tax rate than merely the ONE part called Federal. Add in state, county, local, fines, penalties, printing money, and now the seizure of lands without trial or recompense, under color of law. Did I forget anything? Probably. They are good at their deception. Good at being bad.

The US Government taxes people who live abroad?

Isn't the idea of tax to pay for Government services?

What services is someone using when they are abroad?

I'm a UK/Canadian citizen living in Canada and I haven't paid tax in England since I left nearly 20 years ago.

America - land of the free, unless you leave.

If a terroist hostage crisis involves you, and they are walking down the aisles and separating everyone with U.S. or Israeli passports, would you rather have a U.S. passport, or that of nearly any other nation?

Just wanted to give a big thumbs up to this thread. Although I am new to the board, I have been stopping by often. I hope that I find more positive exploration on topics such as this one has been while I dig more into this community.

Prior to 9/11, I worked as a teacher in Japan. My income upon my return (first day of flights out of Tokyo, Sept 18 I believe it was) was not subject to an added income tax. I did not make enough money to be taxed for my efforts outside the States.

Because I exited Japan with no return flight, I also gave up my 3 year work visa to legally work in Tokyo. That was a major change in my life- fresh out of college- set up with a good job for 3 years etc ... my choice to come back here so quickly kind of set me back to square one, and have yet to have the same opportunity here in the states, and beleive me I have tried. I opened up a business of my own, and sold off to my partner 2 years later for a nice profit.... back to square one in even harder times yet... ugh. This all started to lead my to question everything.... and I guess led me here.

If I knew, felt, observed, and thought about where my country is today the way i do now, I still am unsure I would be able to give up the blue pass.... as it may be my ticket out again if things get worse in our world.

Sorry for using this post as a slight introduction, but this thread lit the fire under my butt to become a new voice in this community.... Thanks Proto - and I hope I might be able to contribute new ideas to issues that many of my close friends and family do not seem to want to pay attention to.

I live in the now with hope that I can enjoy a future with the like minded.

reply to post by Gregarious


Sorry about editing my thread while you were replying. My source for the claim that personal tax levels are similar but there is higher corporate tax was the graph in the following link. I didn't feel like taking the time to double check the facts so I edited the post to not include that part. Could be correct but maybe not since it's wiki. Anyway that's why I edited.

en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 22-4-2010 by 4ortunate1]

I don't see this as so bad. Just like we chose to buy Japanese cars when we lost faith in American ones, why not expect people to move and become citizens of other countries when they lose faith in the US. It's the free citizen market, baby! Enjoy it.

Paul

I wish to question and/or contest a few points in that TIME article:

(1)The U.S. is the only industrialized nation that taxes its overseas citizens, subjecting them to taxation in both their country of citizenship and country of residence.

A)Is this true or exaggerated? I find it hard to believe american citizens are the only citizens being taxed abroad, surely many other countries have a similar policy?

B)In some cases, I don't know how many, tax treaties have been signed between the USA and other countries that either prevent double taxation or limit it.

(2)These stringent measures were put into place to prevent Americans from stashing undeclared assets in offshore banks, but they also make life increasingly difficult for millions of law-abiding expatriates.

A)I can understand the logic but I believe the tax code is too complex for a lot of "ordinary citizens" living abroad. You have to find tax attornies that have special knowledge in tax treaties and are familiar with both domestic and foreign laws. Not easy and quite expensive!

B)If your unlucky enough to live in a country which has NOT signed a tax treaty with the USA, that means you will likely get taxed TWICE unless you "fail" to file IRS papers, in which case your an outlaw/criminal of the corporate USA government.

C)While they harrass private individuals who have stacked a few hundred grand offshore, or perhaps a few million, it seems they are willing to allow big multi-national firms all the leverage they can dream of. I don't have an MBA in international law or business, but clearly the problem of unreported offshore sales is costing the corporate USA government much more than Joe Black.