The Zeitgeist Movement is *Pure Communism*

Originally posted by woodwardjnr

Really, you dont think people can make up their own mind on an issue, there are lots of reasons why someone would be anti American or Anti Israeli, I dont see how you can blame the KGB for that.
What your basically saying is, that if you do not love America or Israel then you have been brain washed by the KGB?
We could flip that though couldn't we?
If you Love the America government and Love Israel who's been washing your brains?

The average American sometimes likes his Government, sometimes dislikes it. But for most of the kids here.its pure, unforgiving and relentless hate all the way. The liberal anti-establishment crowd wants Israel abolished although it is the only country in the Mideast that is democratic, the only country where civil rights are respected.

Have you ever asked yourself why feminists attack Israel instead of the surrounding arab countries where women have much less rights? Isnt that odd? Its because arab countries were no enemy of the KGB.

Have you ever asked yourself why zeitgeisters hate the President of America (no matter which side) but either dont mention dictators like Gaddafi or praise them? Isnt that odd? Its because dictators were no enemy of the KGB.

If you dont believe that a whole Generation of kids is brainwashed to hate America/Israel look at the majority opinion on this website here.

Originally posted by RidhyaLol, everyone knows the Zeitgeist movement is a joke, right? Total NWO propaganda. Yay lets create a system that sounds great in theory but would collapse in on itself due to infeasibility and lack of realistic appraisal of situation... its designed for control as it stands.

Its joined by a lot of well-meaning people who have no real outlet for what they envision so pick this, not because its the best but because its the best sounding that exists... all any one would have to do is set up something slightly better and Zeitgeist would be destroyed.

The problem is they'll kill millions and billions trying to do it.

The thing about the zp movement as it has already been stated is that it is at the least "awakening people". I myself being "awakened" by a member. The member himself says that it is not perfect, but it is not concrete. The main goal is to work together and create a better way. They are open to new ideas that would improve their model. So if you think something is wrong with a particular idea, state a solution and help, dont be a critic.

That being said my opinion is this. Movements like zp represent a shift in consiousness. It has got me to search for a higher understanding of the world. It has caused a shift in the way I think. A different perspective is necessary for my vision to work. People would have to wake up. We have leaders that are involved with so much bs. why? It is not required.

Buddhism represents a train of thought similar to what is needed. The biggest problem with the world is greed. Everyone wants more and more. Some even want a new way of life just to have more. In fact it is in my beleif that a better way of live requires sacrifice. We only need food water shelter and purpose to be happy. We are just programmed to think we need more. Our purpose must become to improve the mental/ physical health and well being of all other individuals.

Waste must stop. There is food grown and meat raised locally in my community but, I still see imports from other countries. Some are even the exact same product (meat shipped from the u.s off the top of my head). Why the waste. I live in Canada. We are an agricultural country. Why import what we have already? Nothing against the states but this represents how much we waste in our current state of affairs.

I think that we need a democracy unlike this one completly. Instead of voting on parties/ people to run the country for us, we should vote on individual issues. Instead of having secrets, all info must be made totally accessable for anyone. Instead of waking up and starting your day thinking about your desires. Wake up and appreciate the world, and realize that all things shall pass. Flow through life at peace.

My big problem with zeitgeist is the forced hegemony. It envisions a world where everyone is logical all the time and thinks rationally. Of course, in reality, some people want to speed down a road really fast in a souped up car, jump out of a plane, and enjoy getting into arguments...this behavior could only be forced out of populations through strict Orwellian means (which, while they don't admit wholly, is what the movement must use to coerce). The points they bring up about our current system and ways of life ARE correct, and I commend Jaques and Peter for interjecting some ideas if nothing else. As a "movement" I would rather listen to Derrick Jensen and Michael Badnarik (as incompatible as they are).

Your comparisons of the Zeitgeist movement to communism is just a tactic to scare people away from the Venus project.

I am no idiot and I don't believe the asparations of Zeitgeist is feasable or will ever exist. It is simple ideology possible stemming from the creators need to make themselves feel ideologically superior. However it isn't a bad model and a bad system to strive for. It opens up the debate for the injustices of a system which we live in that is both corrupt and prejiduce in class division terms.

I am all for a class-less society. However I have been on the planet long enough to know that that is overly ambitious and will never succeed. I am a firm believer in "aim for the stars and reach your roof, rather than aim for your roof and reach your bin".

There is a great saying. "If you aren't a socialist by 20 you are an a___hole, If you are still a socialist by 20 your are a idiot". Political ideology is often a great tool for self-fufillment, it often achieves nothing in the realms of advancment as a society, however what it does do it open up debate how humankind can better itself.

When it comes to Zeitgeist, I must say the prospect of it actually happening scares me. Call me selfish but I prefer non-conformity and I prefer to celebrate out differences and people and as peronalities. I would hate to live in a society where everyone is the same. I recieved a vibe from Zeitgeist - Moving Foward suggesting that everyone should be built on a model soceity where everything appears equal and bland. I prefer colour, different archiecture and all that crap that makes life exciting. I just wish more people could share that with us.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

 

If you knew anything about communism, OR Obama, you'd realize that they go together just about as well as anchovies and mint jelly.

See, you've got this deluded little mentality, where you figure that "Obama = democrat = progressive = liberal = socialist = communist = evil."

Obama's not a communist. He's actually a very milquetoast example of Nixon-era procapitalism. But of course he's not advocating privatizing the police forces and ending all taxation, so to some circles, he's as good as a communist... Thing is, those circles are ignorant dumbasses, and you shouldn't be taking your cues from their sort. Makes you look silly

What are you talking about? Obama was steeped in Marxism early in his life, with the likes of Frank Marshall Davis, an admitted member of CPUSA. He spouts Marxism like Niagara Falls, you know "Spread the wealth" and so on. If you understood Marxism, communism, and the bridge to communism which is socialism, you would realize that Obama is the epitome of a marxist using Capitalist means to achieve his goals. The communists themselves say that Socialism is just a bridge, and that communism is the end goal. Sure, Obam pretends often enough to be a "centrist" in order to trap unsuspecting people. Then when his far left base gets all riled up he goes back to them. He is also a genocidal type Marxist too. While touting the wonders of Socialised medicine(which really does have death panels which will help the sick and elderly to end their lives for the common good) he is bombing Libya, assassinating wanted criminals of his choice(Bin Laden), and in general causing economic mayhem. He is up to no good for sure.

Obama is some kind of sleeper Messiah too, using this analogy of Yuri Bezmenov



freaky, that was from 1983

reply to post by seangkt


So people have only been around for 2000 years huh?

reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss


It's sociocyberneering, not communism. Educate yourself.

ive learned something from the zeitgeist movement, it is money comes from where? its from a large high-tech printer, but who owns the printer? a private printing press company owns these printer. if this is true, werent we all is in danger or possible abuse? this company could have print all the money they want and buy the entire economy, the rest of the people will be forced to work under this company. thats precisely where the central banks comes into the picture, central banks owns this money printing company they decide how much money to be print at a time. without further clarification, we could end up same issue or power abuse again, central bank could buy up entire economy and everyone else is forced to work under central bank. so in some country central banks owns by the government & some central bank is privately owned.

central banks primary function is to manage country's money supply or known as monetary policy. it includes control prices or inflation, act as regulatory for the banking system, interest rate & etc.. if you have got this far, it is important to point out that central banks do not need your money or gold/silver to put in their vault before lending it out to the public through commercial banks. the monetary system we have today is simply unlimited as it is just a number in computer. useful reference : www.bankofengland.co.uk... (p377 or p405) the idea of unlimited money sounds difficult to comprehend for some people, here is further info : www.positivemoney.org.uk...

who decides to create money? before we get into that, lets look at how our typical banks operate today. suppose lets say you are employee of a bank, should you lend the money to public or not? if you lend, you will get commission, bonus, you get to keep your job & you will also get promoted. if you dont lend, you wont get anything except get fired. so you see we have situation here bank's employee's survival(buy food, pay bills, shelter, etc) is threaten if they do not lend. back to the question, who decides to create money? as the professor charles goodhart puts it "the supply of money is actually determined primarily by the demand of borrowers to take out loans.." his book info : www.positivemoney.org.uk...

if you look at macroeconomic subject, central bank's job is also controlling prices stability. central bank can control inflation by increase or reduce money supply in the economy. inflation goes up when central bank print more money to buy government bonds, bills or gov issued notes. in order to lower inflation, central bank sells gov bond in open market, indirectly takes out the cash from the economy. gov create bond papers and sell to central bank because gov needs money, money usually used to pay gov employee, country's infrastructure development & increase economy growth. as the old saying goes, more money supply but limited number of goods and services will devalue the money, thus increase of prices.

one of the most obvious is housing prices, around 90+% of the commercial bank loan is on housing & property. thats why house is so expensive, too much money chasing little goods. banks typically have 2 types of lending, productive and non-productive. productive lending includes actual investment in business or factory that produce goods. non-productive lending includes housing loan & speculating in financial market, which do not increase how much stuff or goods in the economy instead make houses more expensive. suppose you are a bank, why you prefer to lend on property instead of business or factory that produces goods? because business is intangible and if goes bankrupt bank cannot get anything, while if on property loan, banks could still get hold of something if debtors do not make his/her monthly loan payment to bank. thus, only about 8% of commercial bank loan is on business/factory.

indirectly when there is very little business can survive in the economy due to lacks of fund/loans. it affects how many jobs available in the economy. since we allow banks create all our money, this indirectly our money has become debt because banks only give loans. and when you have loans it comes with repayment + interest rate. thus, over the time, money supply will shrinks & we all goes into economy recession. this is what a "privatized money" do, a complete "privatized economy" under the hand of few bankers. when economy is privatized, it happens to control some part of your life too. when recession happens, it affects the government revenue too. how many police or hospital/schools/road maintainence/etc.. can be build, oil subsidy, unemployment benefit, business less profit same as less tax, etc.. thus government also goes into debt by borrowing even more and this is what a national debt is.

Boy that was hard work, just been through the vast majority of this thread and have ended up with mixed feelings.
I suppose I would have a natural tendency to defend the ZM and TVP, simply because they were the first things to set me on this road to try and "wake up"
It is from seeing the two original Zeitgeist films, that my curiosity arose, and lead me down many other paths, in an effort to better understand what is really going on. I have found it very very frustrating, but despite this, I feel it has stood me in better stead, made me more conscious of what is going on, and changed my outlook on life somewhat. For example, the days of me busting a gut to pursue "worthless trinkets" have long gone. I try to be a little more focussed on what I need, and what is really important.
My point therefore is, regardless of what we may think of TZM and TVP, and indeed whether or not it is Pure Communism, is to me a side issue. Sure, I find the ideas uplifting and ideological, and in reality, as many people have mentioned, it will never happen. If others are like me, they will have found these films a great place to start, a place to put down a marker and say that from now on I will question things more, be more aware of the MSM, look to find things out for myself when I can, and spread the word.
Surely all the threads ever created on ATS are for a similar purpose, to try to deny ignorance and wake people up to what is really going on.
To quote Oscar Wilde:
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone elses opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
This is what I am trying to break away from, but it is difficult. Personally, whether or not you agree with something like TVP, you have to admire a man who devotes his lifes work to a particular cause he believes in, in an effort to try and be original, critical, and forward thinking.
I find PJ a little hard to concentrate on, even a little patronising at times.
Despite what anyone may think of either of them, I feel they both have an important part to play, in setting people on the road to a better awareness of what the world is going through.

check out the "mad economy" presentation done by alex

www.youtube.com...

I wish I'd found this thread earlier. By the 8th page, it's going to be a struggle to get much interest in it.

Personally though, I would define the Venus Project as "Communism 2.0," if you could call it that. Yes, it does have a distinctly Marxist flavour; but socialists generally talk about workers owning the means of production. The idea never generally occurs to them, that one day the means of production might actually own itself.

Despite being an often despised iconoclast, I CAN appreciete ideaLs. But good intentions don't excuse bad policy, or the literally millions who have famished and died in the past trying to follow historical forms of ZM / VP policies as actual real world doctrine.

TZM Frequently Asked Question


Fundamental Understanding

One of the most profitable business is war, but unfortunately it is no longer true when the defense department is spending more than its return on investment. For instances, America's defense spending doubled in the same period and that its economy shrunk from 32 to 23 percent of global output. Global military expenditure is about $1.7 trillion annually, and USA is accounting for over 41% of it. Many people might wondering where does all the money comes from? Mostly it is tax money and over $27.7 billion spent a year by consumer on preparing tax and the number of pages in the tax code has increased 16,775% in the past century. This probably sounds not related at all however what you can see here is such a huge spending is possible because a minority is taking from majority (via taxes), indirectly you have the rich creating wealth by taking from the average joe or the poor.

The overall picture here is not judging who is the good guy or vice versa, but what you should notice is the system we are all in, where there's a winner and loser. The problem with such system we are using is there is fear among all the participants, a winner certainly fear he/she might fall back and become a loser in the future, same as rich people worried if they might become poor and having lack of access to necessities and luxury item in their daily life. The key of solving this kind of crisis is actually technology, if you look carefully what really is the thing that creates wealth it is not money at all, instead it is resources. For example, the war I've mentioned in the first paragraph, where the rich trying to get the oil resources while on the other hand, military expense also does consume resource in order to make those weapons/tanks/aircraft, 15,654 square miles used for US bases & military complex, that's more than D.C, Massachusetts & new jersey state combined, then comes along with the tax to fund those war where behind the scenes these complicated tax scheme also does consume resources in order to get the "things" done. Let alone unprecedented amount of human labour, time & money spent on all these indirect consequences & most importantly UNNECESSARY and wasteful activity just for the rich people/oil corporation to get hold of oil in Iraq/afghan. Does it worth it?

If you look from the overall picture, the resources on this earth planet is finite, rich people and big corporation managed to get the oil and resources with any means, but on the other hand activities to acquire these resource is not free either. Earth has only this much resource and we never take account of intelligence and smart way to manage it, whats happening is we are willing to go get something at all cost, ignoring the unforeseen consequences later. For example, going to war may seem quick and easy solution to solve energy crisis, while also making the rich richer, but these wouldn't last long and short term solution usually does not have a good outcome.

One of the most common question the rich claim is the people/consumer is paying for it, there is nothing wrong customer paying for product/services to make businessman rich. That is only part of the picture, because of the system we are in, the other people, usually consumer which have no choice but to find something else to do in order to make a living, once they get paid with their salary, consumer will spent the money on supermarket, etc. to make some businessman rich. Where is the problem in here? For example, i owned 1 of the biggest factory manufacturing food in this town, and i only hire limited amount of people. While the rest of the town population have no choice except find something else to do, banking, advertising, insurance, fishing, other industry, etc etc.. these is obviously not voluntary activities neither people is doing it because of their passion, the problem in here is actually people are forced to take part in unnecessary resource consumption(which is valuable) in order to make a living.(pay me later to buy foods ive produced for them) how long this will be able to go on? resource depletion is well documented here (refer the links at reference). so the important aspect you have to notice here is the rich managed to stay on "top" of majority, but then the rest of the people keep digging beneath of this giant ship to make a living and one day they will dig until the ship sinks and nothing will be left for everyone. The ship im talking about is the earth planet which it doesn't matter if you are rich or poor each of us eventually will be affected. The younger generation of the rich will no longer able to enjoy as much as their parent do and everyone's living standard has been reduced. The government may have heavily promoting the service based sector job, unfortunately it may have not solve the actual problem instead keeps patching the hole which coming from the system.

The Proposal

Many of our daily problems doesn't matter if you are rich or poor it has a lot to do with fear and insecurity. These feeling actually comes from our perception towards others, other than that it has nothing to do with resources or other living things beside human. If you are average joe, you have your worries if your job able to pay stable income or not, if you are businessman, you concern about profit at the end of the year, if you are shareholder of big corporation, you concern about stock prices and how your CEO able to perform. Money and business profit system has dragged & forced everyone to make a choice, each of us trying set a "territory" against our employers or against our clients if you are in business. If you are not doing that, you could have risk of not getting anything and had access to poor life.The opposite could be just the truth, what actually we need is remove those belief and barriers we had on each other, what does the rich people have anything to lose if i ask them to give up everything? this will not work if only certain amount of people agreed to this new economy, it will only work if everyone on earth has acknowledged and proper understanding about it.

By requesting everyone on earth to give up everything they had is all that is. It is that simple, for instance, a rich person have 50 cars and 10 houses. However under the perception from new economy, this is not considered rich or have high standard of living, why the 'rich' person we see today only gets to drive 50 cars and live 10 houses? this is precisely where if we gave up everything and move into this new economy, the rich person today will have virtually unlimited access to numbers of car he/she can drive in the world, live in countless type of houses available everywhere in the world, etc.. The next question usually raised by many people is how is it possible everyone can get everything without paying? One of the important aspect of understanding this type of new economy is where access to needed resource is the solution instead of owning it. With today's available technology and automation, it is already possible we convert global gdp into new 100% automated gdp. This kind of new economy system does not require any human labour in order to produce everything that people needs. Refer the links in the references, to put it simply, this new economy system is also way of life.

References :

www.businessinsider.com...
www.businessinsider.com...
www.globalissues.org...
www.guardian.co.uk...
www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/the-facts-are-clear-so-we-must-act-to-save-the-planet/story-e6frfhqf-1226065142511
www.zeitnews.org...

You'll need plenty of 'laborers' AKA police to enforce it through the barrel of a gun. Have fun with your dictatorship which will not work because I will not cooperate. All it takes is one person to refuse and its all over, bring in the totalitarian dictatorship as after all thats what it is. Jut saying people will have access to "live in" 10 houses doesn't make it true any more than the sense that your statements actually make. And who decides who gets the big house on the beach versus who has to live in those crumby old apartments?

I can see the IDEALS that appeal to your peoples, but thsi system could only work if the entire infrastructure were built fresh from the ground up. So either you destroy everything on earth to start with a blank slate, or stop insisting that your daydreams become actual policy.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
You'll need plenty of 'laborers' AKA police to enforce it through the barrel of a gun. Have fun with your dictatorship which will not work because I will not cooperate. All it takes is one person to refuse and its all over, bring in the totalitarian dictatorship as after all thats what it is. Jut saying people will have access to "live in" 10 houses doesn't make it true any more than the sense that your statements actually make. And who decides who gets the big house on the beach versus who has to live in those crumby old apartments?

I can see the IDEALS that appeal to your peoples, but thsi system could only work if the entire infrastructure were built fresh from the ground up. So either you destroy everything on earth to start with a blank slate, or stop insisting that your daydreams become actual policy.

of course u r right, current infrastructure/civilization is too difficult to implement automation, efficiency and most importantly get rid of #ty jobs that nobody wants to do, hence the TVP city/or some automated city. assuming that everyone already live in tvp cities, change of mindset is also required, everyone can get hold of the technology and build houses everywhere they like, but current society just wont work because they will create a mess with such powerful technology. the people of the future will be more generalist and more civilized, this can be done through education towards the younger generation. thus, beach house or 'penthouse' will no longer seen as 'valuable' to society as in today. just in case there are such issues which not enough house in certain place, tvp cities precisely made easy to travel around the globe(hence the circular design & maglev train), everything is practically accessible within 30min, then such issue will not arise.

there are people definitely wont agree with such kind of system, but capitalism and competition gonna end sooner or later, because earth only have so much land mass/ocean, majority will accept it one day... or...? the capitalist will defend the current system and push everyone into world war 3..

Originally posted by korgmeister
the people of the future will be more generalist and more civilized, this can be done through education towards the younger generation. thus, beach house or 'penthouse' will no longer seen as 'valuable' to society as in today.

Ah yes. I almost forgot that PJ doesn't believe in "human nature". Tell me, would you rather live facing the giant automated factories, or on the waterfront overlooking the beach & ocean?

Do you think its a coincidence that the vastly overwhelming majority of all human population lives nears lakes, rivers and oceans? You might reply it could be bacuase theres more food and easy boat transport near water. Well then why does the value of property increase the closer to water you become? That's human nature. You're not going to "educate" (BRAINWASH) peoples romanticism of the water out of their psyches.

Even in Tampa Bay the most expensive properties are on Bayshore Blvd., that is despite there being a huge power plant and phosphate plants on the other side of the coast. You look across this part of the bay and thats the dominating feature right in the center. Another peculiar thing about this area is at night theres the most awful smell that occurs when the tide goes down. Its beyond belief, like rolling up your car windows doesn't even block it out completely. Yet it isn't exactly unique to this little stretch of saltwater shore either, but considering the command of the property values you'd expect it not to be one of those places. I tried finding a photo of it to show you but its no wonder that people don't include that massive mess that is right in the middle of the horizon view.

This should singlehandely prove that even making an often stinky coastline ugly still doesn't deter people.

there are people definitely wont agree with such kind of system, but capitalism and competition gonna end sooner or later, because earth only have so much land mass/ocean, majority will accept it one day... or...? the capitalist will defend the current system and push everyone into world war 3..

Ok when you begin the culling don't forget to also disappear all of the lazy ignorant people, and people who eat unhealthy things, and like to party, and like do dumb / risky / wasteful things like water sports or extreme games. Those people are a risk to the finite resources and their dumb or wasteful behavior and habits are going to cost a lot of resources when they get injured or their health begins to fail. I guess the fat people can just be euthanized when they begin having their problems later down the road. But the lazy people will be nearly as much as a problem in running an efficient system as other uncooperative undesirables.

Of course we'll have an ongoing struggle keeping tabs on everyone who will eventually become lazy types after they don't have to earn their livings and everything is handed to them, but we'll throw them over that bridge when we eventually have to cross it.

To 'educate' people from romanticizing over waterfront living, perhaps the people who lose the waterfront lottery and protest we'll drown them all along the shorelines and leave their corpses and bones out there. This might be the single most effective and efficient way in curbing those dreams. This will also take care of the types who obsess over water sports and swimming type activivies as they'll be afraid to step on peoples bones if they go in the water. From there we'll keep hospital bills down as there wont be drownings, shark attacks or other encounters with stingrays, jellyfish, sea urchins or wolf fish to worry about. That means even less lifeguard and hospital robot models we'll have to worry about building.

Maybe we'll actually allow people to do skydiving and bungee jumping however, as when things go wrong for these thrill seekers they tend do just die and we wont have to waste resources trying to patch them up.

Of course all people who enjoy watching competitive sports should be taken care of during the initial culling. For that I was thinking we could clean up the majority of them by poisoning the beer, pizza and buffalo chicken wings that will be prepared for Superbowl Sunday festivities. This will also take care of a great lot of the overweight people in America in one quick wave. For the rest of them maybe we'll also poison all of the food at McDonalds and Wendy's the same day. If we use ricin toxin they wont even get sick for a few days and it will come on so fast and so wide everyone will think its some kind of virus plague. This strategy will leave only small pockets of uncooperative political extremists we'll have to round up during the following months, but with our superhuman predictive Strong AI overlord computers we need to run the rest of things it should be no problem tracking down any remaining undesirable survivors after our "Neo Black Sunday" attack wave.

@IgnoranceIsntBlisss

you are trolling or either...

the kind of person that think should punish and lock up bad people instead of solving what causes people to become bad