The Zeitgeist Movement is *Pure Communism*

Originally posted by Oolon
What I find very interesting about this type of post, at least everyone I have read so far, a lot of thought an effort went into debunking Zeitgeist but literally, absolutely NO mention of something better.............and I am just as guilty!

Have any of you join a pro-zeitgeist group and their chat room? Don't bother! The movement is completely doomed as soon as it is organized. Even Jaque said it isn't perfect.....and it isn't........

The biggest problem with any ideas like this is the people, you and I. We are still working with the same old dogmas that have been screwing us for ages. As long as religion, government and business are involved, at least as they are today, nothing will ever work.

However, to this date, absolutely NO one has ever showed me anything better.

Ask and you shall receive....

Check out my sig.

Originally posted by Ridhya
Thats capitalism. Putting in no effort but reaping the rewards, ie. exploiting (capitalising) off others. For communism to work large scale they would require COMPLETELYY wiping all notion of capitalism/superiority/competition off face of the earth, and thats just not human nature.

There is no such thing as "human nature". A human baby, taken at birth, can be brought up however the teachers teach it. They could make it a scholar or an athlete or a murderer. Our society creates our "nature". As history has shown as we've evolved, humans are very malleable.

Originally posted by Ridhya
I have posted many times of this site what I call the 'vodka effect'. People all support one thing stupidly simply because they have not been exposed to anything better, and the promoters act like it is the greatest and only thing in the world. Add isolation, group cohesion, and group primary identity.

This is how cults work. Zeitgeist is a cult.

"People all support one thing stupidly..."
What does stupidly mean? People supporting the Zeitgeist Movement go out of their way to learn more about the problems the world faces. They learn more about possible solutions. Then they try to think how the world can get from the problems to the solutions. How stupid is that?

"...because they have not been exposed to anything better..."
How can you say this? How can you speak for all persons that support the Zeitgeist Movement? You don't know them or their backgrounds.

"...the promoters act like it is the greatest and only thing in the world."
Every movement needs its "champions" or it would never get moving. You can't blame good people for trying to change the world for good.

"...like it is the greatest and only thing in the world."
Do you have a better idea for managing and preserving the resources of the planet for all of its people and for all future generations? I haven't heard any. This goal pretty much makes it "the only thing" like it in the world.

"Add isolation..."
What isolation? The Zeitgeist Movement has more than 400,000 registered members from around the world on their international website. Plus there are hundreds of local chapters, located in most cities around the world (not just the big ones).

"...group cohesion, and group primary identity."
You mean supporters or the Zeitgeist Movement all having the same goal of creating a sustainable world for all future generations? Why is this a bad thing?

"This is how cults work. Zeitgeist is a cult."
Please define cult. I thought cults were about religion. There is no religious aspects to The Venus Project. I thought cults were about a particular "truth". The Venus Project embraces change. There is no "truth". All decisions would be made using the scientific method. This means believes can be changed at any time, as soon as they are proven to be false. How many cults use the scientific method for decision making?

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss

How does The Venus Project compare with Communism?
Communism used money and labor, had social stratification, and elected officials to maintain the communists' traditions. LINK

*The reality of the "money" is that they were units of measurement, like what they call "credits" in dystopian scifi films. The Zeitgeist crowd seem to be unable to explain a concrete model of how it will lack any forms of units of measurement of value or resources. In being unable to do so this is a total pipedream as this couldn't be more critical in the entire idea of it all.

In the world of The Venus Project, there is no money or credits. If there was, it would only lead us to the same failed systems history shows.

The Zeitgeist crowd seem to be unable to explain a concrete model of how it will lack any forms of units of measurement of value or resources.

They are unable to explain one because there intentionally isn't one. There cannot be one. As soon as objects have "value", then we all just go back to fighting over who has the most, why I don't have enough, why you deserve more, etc.

Imagine a system of true abundance for all of humanity's needs. If food, shelter, education, medicine, and all the needs we have can be produced in abundance for all, then there value is zero.

Let's look at an example... If everyone can have an amazing set of golf clubs (better than anything available today), then their value is zero. There's no reason to steal them. Anyone can get their own. In fact, there's no reason for you to even log them around and find a place for them in your home. You go to the golf course, pick up the best set of golf clubs that humanity has been able to create, enjoy your round of golf, then leave them there for the next person. Did you really form a bond with the clubs? Fine, take them home with you. Feel free to load up your home with objects with no value. Everyone else lives lightly and just picks up the clubs when they need them.

In being unable to do so this is a total pipedream as this couldn't be more critical in the entire idea of it all.

You're projecting today's system on the idea of The Venus Project. To scratch it off because there is no money is to prove you don't understand the ideas of a RBE.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Blatent Lies:

How does The Venus Project compare with Communism?
Communism used money and labor, had social stratification, and elected officials to maintain the communists' traditions. LINK

Please provide me your definition of "blatant". It must be different than mine.

The quote you provided above is continued on by these next two sentences:

Most importantly, Communism did not eliminate SCARCITY nor did they have a blueprint or the methods for the production of abundance. Machine production rather than labor will dominate the future.

How can your argument leave out the "most importantly" part?

Most importantly, Communism did not eliminate SCARCITY nor did they have a blueprint or the methods for the production of abundance.

Do you not agree that this sentence is true? Thus, doesn't this disprove your argument that The Zeitgeist Movement is Communism?

Machine production rather than labor will dominate the future.

Do you not agree that this sentence is true? Whether we switch to a RBE like The Venus Project or not, automation and machine production is only ever going to increase.

In today's world, businesses always look to automation to increase profit. It must be this way because if one doesn't, then the competition will.

We cannot fight automation. Automation makes our lives easier and safer and more productive. Yet, at the same time, it makes manual labour obsolete and puts hardworking people out of work. We must embrace automation because there is no winnable fight against continual technological advancement.

If you agree we must embrace automation, then our current system of paid labour is doomed to failure. Unemployed people cannot support themselves and cannot support the economy. Jobs lost to technical innovation do not come back.

Originally posted by Ridhya
everyone knows the Zeitgeist movement is a joke, right? Total NWO propaganda.

What exactly does it mean to associate The Zeitgeist Movement with NWO? I don't understand the connection.

I see NWO thrown around a lot. I fear different people have their own different personal meanings.

Originally posted by Ridhya
Its joined by a lot of well-meaning people who have no real outlet for what they envision so pick this, not because its the best but because its the best sounding that exists... all any one would have to do is set up something slightly better and Zeitgeist would be destroyed.

In fact, you're right. The Venus Project embraces change. If someone came up with a better idea, then TVP would change to utilize it. What does "better" mean? It means proven as such using the scientific method.

Originally posted by Ridhya
They also forgot to mention, communism is 100% proven to work every single day, but ONLY on a small scale. Communism is like a biological cell, when it get to a certain size the surface area can no longer contain the volume and it explodes. Also, it is mandatory that all members are VOLUNTARY, or else the dissonance will be its downfall.

They didn't forget to mention because your above point is irrelevant. The Venus Project is not communism.

Nothing like The Venus Project has ever been attempted in the history or mankind. Attempting to make predictions about its results by comparing it with past social ideologies is futile.

Originally posted by Ridhya
Zeitgeist is nothing more than a cult and they're planning their cult compound.

Please define cult. I thought cults were about religion. There is no religious aspects to The Venus Project. I thought cults were about a particular "truth". The Venus Project embraces change. There is no "truth". All decisions would be made using the scientific method. This means beliefs can be changed at any time, as soon as they are proven to be false. How many cults use the scientific method for decision making?

Originally posted by bkyle
There is no such thing as "human nature". A human baby, taken at birth, can be brought up however the teachers teach it. They could make it a scholar or an athlete or a murderer. Our society creates our "nature". As history has shown as we've evolved, humans are very malleable.

Is that right? Humans act 100% on nurture, and 0% nature?

I've heard PJ carry on about that before. This is the first time anyone has actually brought it up around me.

There is truth to environmental causes, it's not an absolutist one sided argument as PJ would have people believe, as he needs people to for his propaganda to be as effective.

You might consider reading the wikipedia page on Nature vs. Nurture

Or consider this:

Human behavior is a product both of our innate human nature and of our individual experience and environment. In this article, however, we emphasize biological influences on human behavior, because most social scientists explain human behavior as if evolution stops at the neck and as if our behavior is a product almost entirely of environment and socialization. In contrast, evolutionary psychologists see human nature as a collection of psychological adaptations that often operate beneath conscious thinking to solve problems of survival and reproduction by predisposing us to think or feel in certain ways. Our preference for sweets and fats is an evolved psychological mechanism. We do not consciously choose to like sweets and fats; they just taste good to us.
www.psychologytoday.com...

That's the synopsis. They go on to highlight 10 examples. The first one is interesting:

Long before TV—in 15th- and 16th- century Italy, and possibly two millennia ago—women were dying their hair blond. A recent study shows that in Iran, where exposure to Western media and culture is limited, women are actually more concerned with their body image, and want to lose more weight, than their American counterparts. It is difficult to ascribe the preferences and desires of women in 15th-century Italy and 21st-century Iran to socialization by media.

Women's desire to look like Barbie—young with small waist, large breasts, long blond hair, and blue eyes—is a direct, realistic, and sensible response to the desire of men to mate with women who look like her. There is evolutionary logic behind each of these features.

Men prefer young women in part because they tend to be healthier than older women. One accurate indicator of health is physical attractiveness; another is hair. Healthy women have lustrous, shiny hair, whereas the hair of sickly people loses its luster. Because hair grows slowly, shoulder-length hair reveals several years of a woman's health status.
...
Women with blue eyes should not be any different from those with green or brown eyes. Yet preference for blue eyes seems both universal and undeniable—in males as well as females. One explanation is that the human pupil dilates when an individual is exposed to something that she likes. For instance, the pupils of women and infants (but not men) spontaneously dilate when they see babies. Pupil dilation is an honest indicator of interest and attraction. And the size of the pupil is easiest to determine in blue eyes. Blue-eyed people are considered attractive as potential mates because it is easiest to determine whether they are interested in us or not.

Now try this one out: Artists. Would you try to say that some people aren't born artists? Anyone can be Leonardo? More importantly: Would everyone want to be an artist?

Were Nicola Tesla, or Albert Einstein, not born mathematical geniuses? Anyone can be an Einstein? I'm not just talk good at math and a fast learner, but rather visionary mathematical genius.

Same can be said of super athletes. Some people are born with genes that gives them superior physique. But does physique mean true talent in a certain type of sport? And above that, just because someone was born with with physique and underlying talent, is it not possible that even with gung ho encouragement they might rather not run down the field and instead solve math problems and paint geometrical art?

Environment is however important. Something I've been saying, about TV, for years is that they could have taken Einstein at an early age and 'locked' him in a room full of TV's that only put out the most mind numbing type of shows ever. By the time he was 18 he'd still be a genius of sorts, but the the sorts of things his mind would articulate would be irrelevant drivel for small talk, but he'd still jump out with stuff. He'd be a 'TV Genius'. Now he was an exceptional one, but most people have the potential for being intellectuals. Most people are: 'TV Intellectuals'. Minds wrapped around sports stats and celebrity gossip.

There IS a human nature, and it's preyed upon by the Establishment to better socially engineer us.

Social engineer: Isn't that what Jacques Fresco is? Oh, yes. You think they don't know how to engineer people, using their inherent traits?

Now I will be fair here, there is a certain degree that people can learn to watch their own innate biases and bring them under control. But I argue that this is easier for some than others. Meaning, some people are more talented at not getting snagged in the hooks of things like group think.

Take cognitive biases for instance. It used to be a sort of hobby of mine to not only read the Wikipedia pages about them, but rather to do PDF google searches to pull up scholarly papers on CB's and read them. I've read specific papers that they has actually told the study participants about the cognitive bias they were going to try and bust them on, and sure enough majority of them still fell for it.

Practice does make perfect, but it doesn't make you a visionary genius.

Meanwhile the very things PJ claims to be saving you from are found right in the program: When you join the movement you're now part of the group. The biggest group to be ever: global. Even bigger: all machines and humans together as one big cohesive group. He knows what he's doing.

For instance...

Originally posted by bkyle
Please define cult. I thought cults were about religion. There is no religious aspects to The Venus Project.

Ever hear of a Cult of Personality? In the purest government form, the government banishes religion and assumes the role of god, and then the Cult figure (such as Stalin) becomes in effect the personal embodiment of the new 'god', the messiah.

This is another innate human 'nature' trait PJ surely won't bring up on his own: Humans tendency for religious fervorism. The funny thing about atheists is they're typically just as hardcore about their convictions that it takes on the form of faith. And then you have the fervorism of the ZP crown, and the venom spitting and DENIAL that occurs if you criticize it, much as you're doing.

I thought cults were about a particular "truth". The Venus Project embraces change. There is no "truth".

Yeah, faith in the machines abilities to accurately manage and predict resources to ensure PJ's superabundance. Faith in machines that don't even exist.

Faith in PJ's theories about human nature and all the rest, which are not proven, while there is tons of empirical data that says otherwise.

All decisions would be made using the scientific method.

That is precisely what the original Communist theorists used to say, and that's what the communists tried to do. Millions died, and not from war. Trying to forcefully impose this monolithic system on the entire world will lead to massive scale war, and I'll be on the front lines.

This means beliefs can be changed at any time, as soon as they are proven to be false. How many cults use the scientific method for decision making?

The Order of Cosmic Engineers, transhumanist technocrats, whose god is AI, Strong AI, the Technological Singularity.

That is the source of PJ's futurist theories, yet he gives them no credit, and he doesn't tell his followers about the truth of what he's proposing. Instead he indoctrinates you into the philosophy. He does the same thing with "Pure Communism" and the ideas they've plagiarized from the early 1900's Technocrat Movement. They steal these ideas and act like they're new, while not telling you where these ideas came from so that you might be able to research what they really are.

Then by the time someone like me comes along and tells you the truth, you're already in agreement with the ideas, while at the same time in denial about what they are, such as pure communism. This is known as Cognitive Dissonance.

You might also consider reading my expanded comparison of ZP and the classical definition of cults.

As well as:
Zeitgeist Movement = most hardcore NWO propaganda ever.

[edit on 10-7-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Originally posted by bkyle
The Zeitgeist crowd seem to be unable to explain a concrete model of how it will lack any forms of units of measurement of value or resources.

They are unable to explain one because there intentionally isn't one. There cannot be one. As soon as objects have "value", then we all just go back to fighting over who has the most, why I don't have enough, why you deserve more, etc.

Imagine a system of true abundance for all of humanity's needs. If food, shelter, education, medicine, and all the needs we have can be produced in abundance for all, then there value is zero.

You still haven't explained anything new.

It's all based on an unproven notion that there will be endless resources, and endless energy. These things don't exist. The technology to replace petroleum based products doesn't exist, and I'm not talking about gasoline and diesel.

The machines to figure it all out and dictate to us how much we can use, and how we dispose of things, to ensure the abundance doesn't exist.

ZP isn't real, it's sombody's IDEAL. It's utopian, and without being based on real things it's doomed to become dystopian. There's no way around this. And worst of all they're trying to set it up globally, where everyone and everything is subject to the oligarchy of humans that will have to operate it until they get their global 'Skynet' system, if that's even possible, and then it might be smart enough to ration etc where humans absolutely are not.

So, without all that, there will need to be something that represents your consumption of the utopia. Just saying there wont be isn't an actual model. That's more akin to rejecting the idea of needing a model of a proposed complexsystem. Economics isn't simple, nor is resource management, and all the rest that goes with any society, let alone the entire world.

And never mind the pollution that would happen if every month a faster CPU is manufactured and everyone decided they want the new one even though their 'old' one is still good. That is just one tiny example of the absurdity of all this. Having to save money is a good thing in many ways: you only get the best you can afford, but more importantly only as often as necessary. If all people were upgrading their computers just for the sake of being able to do it each month, the waste disposal this world would be up against would have us all already living in a post apocalyptic waste land.

[edit on 10-7-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
You still haven't explained anything new.

I see you haven't either.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
It's all based on an unproven notion that there will be endless resources, and endless energy. These things don't exist. The technology to replace petroleum based products doesn't exist, and I'm not talking about gasoline and diesel.

It's not based on the notion you are suggesting at all. Its all about intelligent, wise and meaningful allocation and application of finite resources to get the most out of them. Also (virtually) Endless energy exists already (RE: Wind, Wave, Solar, Geo-Thermal and one day Fusion), the problem being that the financial system we operate under, in a self-justification, makes investing, developing and implementing these technologies (emerging and otherwise) un-profitable and therefor their rate of progress and implementation is severely retarded and stunted - because if everyone's electricity was coming from decentralized sources there would be no need for multi-national corporational energy monopoly (ie, control, pricing) which as it stands now is in collaboration with fossil-resource suppliers justifying there continual existence because there is massive amounts of money in the continuance of the old order.

Technology to replace petroleum based products is emerging and some already exist (ie a replacement for plastic)

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
The machines to figure it all out and dictate to us how much we can use, and how we dispose of things, to ensure the abundance doesn't exist.

You are taking the proposed concept of The Venus Project as literally as possible as a means of disinformation (which is why I rarely continue talking to you) because you are deliberate in your ignorance. I prefer the term Become Wise to "Deny Ignorance" but for your case I gladly make an exception.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
ZP isn't real, it's sombody's IDEAL. It's utopian, and without being based on real things it's doomed to become dystopian. There's no way around this. And worst of all they're trying to set it up globally, where everyone and everything is subject to the oligarchy of humans that will have to operate it until they get their global 'Skynet' system, if that's even possible, and then it might be smart enough to ration etc where humans absolutely are not.

It isn't "real" because its nothing more than a depiction of concept and a small foundation, off which greater understandings and superior future-proofing planning can be based on. Its a concept dealing with 50-100+ years in the future - and if you can't forgive its weaknesses for it's strengths (Zeitgeist: Addendum - a depiction of concept) than you sir/madam are a deluded ideologue, and/or perhaps more likely; a disinformation saboteur.

It is based on real things, like - sustainability, disproportion of wealth alleviation, proper harnessing of technology (for us not us for), functionality, equality, logic, freedom, simplicity, etc etc etc.

It's only utopian on the surface - if you had any kind of critical thinking ability you would realise its merely an amalgamation of our best, presently understood, concepts and technologies and a potential expression of such.

We are already living in a dystopic prison - freedom and democracy are apparently synonymous with corporate-feudalism, consumerism and splintered consciousness and potential. The vibe you're giving off suggests to me you think this is cool.

We do all share a planet you know, and no nation could have the "high-standard" of living that 7% of the planet currently enjoys without the cooperation (or control) of other nation-states. Its not about centralising power, its about decentralising power and communalising information and resources.

The assertion of "an oligarchy" is pure disinformation and/or mal-informed opinion. Democratic process and accountability are not exclusive to capitalism/corporatism (in fact they are retarded under it).

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Originally posted by bkyle
The Zeitgeist crowd seem to be unable to explain a concrete model of how it will lack any forms of units of measurement of value or resources.

They are unable to explain one because there intentionally isn't one. There cannot be one. As soon as objects have "value", then we all just go back to fighting over who has the most, why I don't have enough, why you deserve more, etc.

Imagine a system of true abundance for all of humanity's needs. If food, shelter, education, medicine, and all the needs we have can be produced in abundance for all, then there value is zero.

So, without all that, there will need to be something that represents your consumption of the utopia. Just saying there wont be isn't an actual model. That's more akin to rejecting the idea of needing a model of a proposed complexsystem. Economics isn't simple, nor is resource management, and all the rest that goes with any society, let alone the entire world.

There would be units of measurement, quantitative value (in the shallow sense of attributed monetized value) would be replaced with the superior notion of inherent value and appreciation determined by the need, role and its fulfillment/application.

Think of it this way - I don't need to know the price of a pencil - in order to know I need something to write with - all I need is a pencil. And the roles involved in making that pencil that cant be filled by automation will be filled by people contributing to society.

If someone receives food, clothing, shelter, entertainment etc of the highest standard, a portion of which is being supplied by fellow humans, the natural inclination of that person would be to contribute back to society by other means. The person receiving bananas may be teaching the kids of the fruit picker.

A culture of altruism wouldn't take long to set in after a generation or two of abundance and cooperation. (Theorhetically speaking that is, as there is alot of people in poverty currently, a lot of deeply rooted violence and ignorance, overpopulation etc - something like The Venus Project won't be possible until alot of these problems are virtually extinct.)

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
And never mind the pollution that would happen if every month a faster CPU is manufactured and everyone decided they want the new one even though their 'old' one is still good. That is just one tiny example of the absurdity of all this. Having to save money is a good thing in many ways: you only get the best you can afford, but more importantly only as often as necessary. If all people were upgrading their computers just for the sake of being able to do it each month, the waste disposal this world would be up against would have us all already living in a post apocalyptic waste land.

Which is exactly what is happening under capitalism - YOUR EXACT EXAMPLE IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS WITH CAPITALISM - HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THIS!!!???!

Under The Venus Project: Rules are made according to objects:
eg: new mobile phones are given out every 10 years, in between they will be maintained, meanwhile 10 years is spent researching and developing the new model as much as possible, as one replaces the other, the older version will be recycled to help build the next one.

Under our current system: everything is made for profit:
eg: new mobile phones come out every 2 weeks, people have to buy new mobile phones as a consumer item in a projection of their self worth, they have to pay to use them, usually pay to buy them, pay for insurance or pay for them to be fixed, their old ones go to landfill, there is 100 different companies making virtually the same thing, they're deliberately not made to last, designed and made to be as disproportional in cost:price ratio as possible, every day more resources have to be dug-up to make them - etc etc etc.

The former is not possible under capitalism because its not profitable to do so.

Why isn't all our fruit, veg and meat 100% bio-dynamic/organic - because the cost:price ratio means they can't compete with the less nutritious options of producing.

This is why the differential advantage created by our monetary system is inferior to a resource-based economy. And this is why something to the effect of what is purposed by The Venus Project is vastly superior to what we presently have - and like I've suggested many times before now, instead of being malevolent in your talk - how about suggesting something that is as comprehensively equivalent in superiority to that of TVP (once more for emphasis comprehensively equivalent in superiority) because you've done nothing close to that since I've become aware of your views.

reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Meanwhile the very things PJ claims to be saving you from are found right in the program: When you join the movement you're now part of the group. The biggest group to be ever: global. Even bigger: all machines and humans together as one big cohesive group. He knows what he's doing.

What are you talking about? What are you implying PJ is claiming to save us from?

"He knows what he's doing?"

What are you implying? I know what I'm doing. Don't you know what you're doing? Aren't machines and humans already one big cohesive group in our present society? We can't get along without power, transportation, refrigeration, etc.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Ever hear of a Cult of Personality? In the purest government form, the government banishes religion and assumes the role of god, and then the Cult figure (such as Stalin) becomes in effect the personal embodiment of the new 'god', the messiah.

"The Cult of Personality"? I love 80's rock! I had that Living Colour album on cassette.

Are you implying PJ or Fresco aim to be perceived as a new god or messiah?

Who is banishing religion? The Venus Project isn't telling people to remove religion from their lives. They just make it clear that humanity cannot base its decision making on religion because religion doesn't embrace change. Religion deals with "truths" and "rules" that should be followed without question. The Venus Project advocates questioning everything. It's a premise to the scientific method.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
This is another innate human 'nature' trait PJ surely won't bring up on his own: Humans tendency for religious fervorism. The funny thing about atheists is they're typically just as hardcore about their convictions that it takes on the form of faith. And then you have the fervorism of the ZP crown, and the venom spitting and DENIAL that occurs if you criticize it, much as you're doing.

What ZP crown? I'm afraid we're talking on different channels. There is no crown. PJ is doing his best to help us, humanity, from destroying ourselves through education. He is happy to have others lead the way, especially because he is so busy. True leaders don't want followers. True leaders want to create more leaders. PJ welcomes people from around the world to become leaders in a logical and sustainable new world, not just followers of the status quo in our current mixed of society.

Much as I'm doing? Are you getting personal now? "Venom spitting"? Me? I strive to be level-headed, logical, and put emotions on the back-burner. Where do I appear to be "venom spitting"? What exactly am I in denial of? Please be specific.

reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Yeah, faith in the machines abilities to accurately manage and predict resources to ensure PJ's superabundance. Faith in machines that don't even exist.

Faith in PJ's theories about human nature and all the rest, which are not proven, while there is tons of empirical data that says otherwise.

In today's world, corporations own resource assets, such as oil fields, mineral mines, forests, etc. Do you think those corporations do not know how to measure the size of their resource or their rate of consumption? Do you think they do the calculations with pencil and paper? Corporations have precisely the technology you're claiming does not exist. They must if they're going to competently manage their resources.

How can you say PJ's theories are not proven? First, they are not his theories. PJ is not a sociologist. He's a musician. Second, "all the rest which are not proven"? How can you strike down everything PJ puts himself out there on the line for in one broad stroke? To be fair and accurate, don't you need to show each claim is not proven?

When making claims about what is proven and what is not proven, please provide sources. Such claims sound like truths, but without evidence, they are empty statements.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
That is precisely what the original Communist theorists used to say, and that's what the communists tried to do. Millions died, and not from war.

Ah, the old, "That's what Hitler said!" joke. Endlessly amusing at parties because it can be interjected almost any time.

Sources, source, sources. I'm not aware of original Communist theory stating, "All decisions would be made using the scientific method." I did a quick Google search for such a statement and came back empty handed. Please provide sources.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
The Order of Cosmic Engineers, transhumanist technocrats, whose god is AI, Strong AI, the Technological Singularity.

That is the source of PJ's futurist theories, yet he gives them no credit, and he doesn't tell his followers about the truth of what he's proposing. Instead he indoctrinates you into the philosophy. He does the same thing with "Pure Communism" and the ideas they've plagiarized from the early 1900's Technocrat Movement. They steal these ideas and act like they're new, while not telling you where these ideas came from so that you might be able to research what they really are.

Is "The Order of Cosmic Engineers" a cult? Please explain what makes them a cult? I'm not familiar with them. Their website seems to be having trouble and returning errors instead of pages. Do they claim to be a cult, or what is it about them that makes them appear to be a cult? Is it just you that believes they are a cult, or is it a common understanding? Please enlighten me.

PJ has said many, many times on his radio blogcast that the goals of The Zeitgeist Movement and the ideas of The Venus Project are not new. The ideas are a "best of" collection of what we currently understand of our planet. I'm paraphrasing, of course, but PJ has often said that there are no new ideas. All of our ideas are based on what we've learned from our environment, which includes humanity's documented history. We all take what we learn and we try to use this knowledge in new ways to make our lives better.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
You still haven't explained anything new.

Did I claim I was trying to explain something new?

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
It's all based on an unproven notion that there will be endless resources, and endless energy. These things don't exist.

It's all based on an unproven notion...
If "it's all based", then perhaps this is the root of your discomfort with the ideas?

endless resources, and endless energy
Simply put, this is not at all the claim (or "notion") of The Venus Project. Where did you get this idea from? The Venus Project is all about protecting the limited resources we have via sustainable practices.

Stop for a moment and think about the consumption practices in today's World. Sadly, humanity acts as if have we have "endless resources, and endless energy". Examples surround us in abundance: v8 automobiles, the Amazon rainforest being cut-down at a rate of 8 football fields a day, personal propane patio heaters, etc, etc. In fact, humanity's current cavalier attitudes where we act like we have "endless resources, and endless energy" is precisely the reason we need a new system, like The Venus Project.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
The technology to replace petroleum based products doesn't exist, and I'm not talking about gasoline and diesel.

Sure they do. We have geo-thermal technology, wind power technology, tidal technology, and more. We've had electric cars for years! The question is, why is this technology not in widespread use?

Further, for the sake of discussion, lets say they don't exist. That doesn't imply they can't exist. It was common for people to claim man could never fly until the airplane was invented. If we can dream it, we can build it.

If capitalism wasn't getting in the way of innovation, I can't even image the advanced technology we would have today.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
ZP isn't real, it's sombody's IDEAL. It's utopian, and without being based on real things it's doomed to become dystopian.

I'll just assume "ZP" is "Zeitgeist Project". I've never heard of this name or acronym, but that's beside the point.

Yes, of course, The Venus Project is currently just an idea. Just like democracy was once just an idea. Just like "consentual taxation" is currently just an idea. First we dream, and then we work hard to make the dreams a reality.

IgnoranceIsntBlisss, I'm afraid you haven't understood the goals of The Venus Project (TVP).

TVP is not "utopian". Utopia is a perfect place. TVP makes it clear there is no such thing as perfection. We can only use our best understandings and best data to make our best decisions. As decisions are made (via the scientific method, of course) and more resulting data is gathered, then we will learn more and make sure this new knowledge is used for future decision making. We are constantly learning, so The Venus Project will be constantly changing. There is no such thing as a constantly changing "utopia".

...without being based on real things it's doomed to become dystopian...

When I read this, it become clear we are on different pages. The Venus Project is all about "real things". It is the root of the whole idea. All resources in TVP are measured. All decisions are made via the scientific method using those measurements. Can a system be any more "real"?

I would argue that the current path humanity is on is one towards dystopia. Have we been treating the Earth better or worse over the last 100 years? It's only these recent years that our poor decision making is beginning to show.

reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
And never mind the pollution that would happen if every month a faster CPU is manufactured and everyone decided they want the new one even though their 'old' one is still good. That is just one tiny example of the absurdity of all this. Having to save money is a good thing in many ways: you only get the best you can afford, but more importantly only as often as necessary. If all people were upgrading their computers just for the sake of being able to do it each month, the waste disposal this world would be up against would have us all already living in a post apocalyptic waste land.

I love examples! Let's talk about fast CPU's. Imagine that you lived in the world of The Venus Project. Relax, it's just for this example. You need a new computer. You go down to the computer place and pick one up (or have it delivered or whatever). It will be the best computer that humanity has ever produced for your needs. There is no money, so money is not an object. There is no choice between a dozen different almost-the-same computers that differ only in RAM, HD, resolution, etc. You get the largest RAM, largest HD, best resolution, etc. Literally, it is the best available anywhere.

Now, are you happy? Would you need a faster CPU if your needs are being satisfied? Or would you just "want" one? "Want" is different than "need". You won't feel inferior to your neighbour because he has the same computer you do. No one has a better computer than you.

When a better computer becomes available, you and everyone else who wants one can have one. Your old one will be taken back and intelligently recycled. Everything in TVP is designed to last and minimize waste. Perhaps computer technology would be very modular and we would all need to just switch a pluggable piece to get the latest advancements, so the hardware change could be very minimal.

IgnoranceIsntBlisss, now look back on your example. Doesn't your description sound like our current society? People don't change computers every month, but many do each year. What happens to the old one? Is it designed to be intelligently recycled? Of course note. That would increase the price and no one would buy it if other non-recyclable ones were available. The only computers mostly go in landfills, where they will sit for hundreds of years. Polystyrene plastic will sit in a landfill for 500 years. Remember back 500 years ago? That wasn't long after Chris Columbus accidentally bumped into what we now call America.

reply to post by ghostsoldier

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
Its all about intelligent, wise and meaningful allocation and application of finite resources to get the most out of them. Also (virtually) Endless energy exists already (RE: Wind, Wave, Solar, Geo-Thermal and one day Fusion), the problem being that the financial system we operate under, in a self-justification, makes investing, developing and implementing these technologies (emerging and otherwise) un-profitable and therefor their rate of progress and implementation is severely retarded and stunted - because if everyone's electricity was coming from decentralized sources there would be no need for multi-national corporational energy monopoly (ie, control, pricing) which as it stands now is in collaboration with fossil-resource suppliers justifying there continual existence because there is massive amounts of money in the continuance of the old order.

Well said, ghostsoldier.

I'd like to add "responsible" to your list of what it's all about. Today, humanity is making decisions irresponsibly, without regard for sustainability and the needs of future generations.

When humanity now has the capability of behaving so much better, we all need to stop acting selfishly and just "grow up".

reply to post by ghostsoldier


Hi ghostsoldier, it's sad but TVP and TZM's ideals/ideas will remain just a pipe dream, you can tell by the reactions of the majority of the people.

Most people feel they deserve more than the other and they like the idea that whenever they gain a penny, somebody loses a penny. Lol

I remember watching a documentary about NASA's space endeavors, they already have a solution to be able to easily refuel spacecrafts by beaming the energy from earth to the craft (something like that)... the only problem is... THEY CANNOT AFFORD IT. I do not know if I should laugh or cry...lol.

PEACE.

reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss


It is well beyond me that anyone can just post their ignorant viewpoints on this Venus Project as if they are ALL knowledgeable and correct. I have studied this Venus Project and so many other peoples ideas and none come close to the understanding the TVP does. This ignoranceisbliss person is projecting so heavily his/her own paranoid beliefs, but he/she must have some alternate agenda to talk so vehemently against a possible solution to our world’s problems that is based in equality and practicallity. There is nothing in TVP except great ideas and possible alternatives and THAT IS IT...if you don’t like it, just don’t get involved. It is not fair to carry conversations down incorrect paths so as to push people away from something so that one can work their own agendas. Just promote your own ideas. Don’t bad mouth other people’s ingenious ideas.

Originally posted by Ridhya
And then what happens when the slave robots develop onsciousness and rise up

Lol, everyone knows the Zeitgeist movement is a joke, right? Total NWO propaganda. Yay lets create a system that sounds great in theory but would collapse in on itself due to infeasibility and lack of realistic appraisal of situation... its designed for control as it stands.

Its joined by a lot of well-meaning people who have no real outlet for what they envision so pick this, not because its the best but because its the best sounding that exists... all any one would have to do is set up something slightly better and Zeitgeist would be destroyed.

They also forgot to mention, communism is 100% proven to work every single day, but ONLY on a small scale. Communism is like a biological cell, when it get to a certain size the surface area can no longer contain the volume and it explodes. Also, it is mandatory that all members are VOLUNTARY, or else the dissonance will be its downfall.

Zeitgeist is nothing more than a cult and they're planning their cult compound.

That's a good question. Since we already have the AI and technology to achieve this sort of society that 60's futurists were predicting, the question remains, what happens if the robots deem us obsolete? What a way to go!

Communism is a lot of things, but one of the things it is, is a POLITICAL ideology. The Zeitgeist society talks about a world ruled by ideas not men and ideologies. They pretty much call politics and economics and money as we know it obsolete. That includes Communism.

I don't think the zeitgeist folks are a threat or communist bogeymen. I think they are just onto a new thing called post scarcity economics. Not communism. There are many books about it, one of them that comes to mind is Economizing abundance by Robert Theobald.

P.S, the zeitgeist society will NEVER happen. They just present step by step that it IS possible to live in a world where the world works for everyone, it's just a matter of IF we want it to work for everyone or if we want to continue sliding into oblivion.