Originally posted by ghostsoldier
First,
What causes Imperialism <-> Corporatism <-> Capitalism <-> Differential Advantage

Greed by a few, with ignorance and domestication of the masses.

The Venus Project - if extrapolated away from its humble motives at this stage - to world wide implementation.

]

Hey sign me up! If we all get 21.5 acres of pristine subtropical land with ponds and lakes, 10 buildings, hook me up yo. Even better is I also get an income of 150,000 units of measurement of value, then I wont need to bother buying solar panels (which apparently JF hasnt any in Venus, FLORIDA).

Would have NOTHING to do with Imperialism, because it would be built on co-operation and sharing.

It will FAIL for one simple reason, I alone wont agree to it. When I wont agree to it, and I do as I wish, it will have to stop me, simply because it wont be able to work without my and everyone elses cooperation with one another. It will need to be able to predict decades in advance of how to globally manage all possible resources in order to predict how to ensure abundance, but it wont be able to predict our every move in order to do its job. Therefore it will have to tell us how to use every scale of resource, or it will FAIL.

And to even ensure total abundance harmony, it will be even more doomed to attempt to work without being able to average out total global resources, meaning without total global control it cannot work.

Capitalism creates scarcity.

Proper capitalism denounces scarcity as if you have access to cheaper resources you have better ability to compete. On the flip side, the connectedness of everything ensures that only those with near-direct access to the needed resources feel this advantage. Otherwise everything spreads out to effect the market values directly.

Scarcity creates tension.

It does. And screwing us right out of the value of our 'dollars' is about the most immoral thing ever. Especially being the 'world reserve currency'. By tightening the grip on EVERYBODY, this isn't even capitalism, its outright exploitation.

[quote[Oh and implementing a WORLDWIDE - EDUCATION - and - RESISTANCE to an FOREIGN POWER -through "CONTROL" of the MEDIA- Sounds a little too Communistic to me to warrant a tip of the hat. so for now I guess you better just

Did I actually say "control"? News in this nation travels worldwide. Taking back our media, from the multinational corporatists, in itself would be heard around the world. There is such a thing of capitalism wihtout corporatism and mega-conglomeration. But even without it, per say, the Internet connects majority of theworld now.

You seem to think the world will be run by Skynet under a VP style society - haha - there's a massive difference between true AI, and a functional data-management system.

Humans would still have the dominant role.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
First,
What causes Imperialism <-> Corporatism <-> Capitalism <-> Differential Advantage

Greed by a few, with ignorance and domestication of the masses.

The possibility for Greed to even exist comes from Differential-Advantage - 99% of which wouldn't be possible under the resource-based-economy that TVP aspires to (which is atleast a 100 years away of being able to be fully implemented).

Domestication is a by product of the consumer-culture that Capitalism produces.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
Capitalism creates scarcity.

Proper capitalism denounces scarcity as if you have access to cheaper resources you have better ability to compete. On the flip side, the connectedness of everything ensures that only those with near-direct access to the needed resources feel this advantage. Otherwise everything spreads out to effect the market values directly.

Cheaper resources - how about free resources?

Why do I need 50 different kinds of breakfast cereal - when I only need the 3 most nutritious.

Capitalism is want and need (scarcity) - Communism is have and give (co-operation).

I'm still waiting for a better alternative.

[edit on 15/4/10 by ghostsoldier]

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
So really your only solution for the betterment of society is to build a new one...

It was an outcry for ideas, not a blueprint for telling people what to do.

It was an outcry for ideas of how to improve assuming we cant change people, or cant stop the eventual transhumanist societies that are soon to emerge. Don't obfuscate by skimming limited quotes.

How are you going to do that so that it either A) doesn't perpetuate the problems of the world already B) does function on a large-scale to solve the worlds problems ??? Tell me man, I wanna know.

As I've written all around, lead by showing there can be a better way than it is. If people could actually observe sovereignty they would actually seek it. ZP doesnt support odeas of sovereignty in any capacity whatsoever, therefore it will fail for that reason alone.

So far you got nothing, no alternative, nothing -

Nope! No solutions to any of our problems are to be found anywhere inside of these three threads. If you're just now seeing in, nothing to be seen in any of these threads worth noting. There is NO solution to ANY of our problems other than ZP!

[edit on 15-4-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
You seem to think the world will be run by Skynet under a VP style society - haha - there's a massive difference between true AI, and a functional data-management system.

Humans would still have the dominant role.

Would they? Until which point? If humans arent collectively smart enough to manage ALL global resources "scientifically", then therefore the machines will have to be smarter than us. As soon as they're as smart as us, they will be able to go into a "hard takeoff".

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
Domestication is a by product of the consumer-culture that Capitalism produces.

Oh? Do YOU own any pets? Or are pets not going to be allowed in your utopia?

I'm still waiting for a better alternative.

I've presented many alternatives, as have others. Just realizing the problems of the system tells us where to attack. How hard is this? PJ shows the systems faults, but then instead of fixing those faults the ONLY way is to go into *Pure Communism*.

[edit on 15-4-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
It was an outcry for ideas, not a blueprint for telling people what to do.

Outcry for ideas, not a blueprint for telling people what to do you say, hmmmmm I wonder what TVP is..... ???

It was an outcry for ideas of how to improve assuming we cant change people, or cant stop the eventual transhumanist societies that are soon to emerge. Don't obfuscate by skimming limited quotes.

Limited quotes?! I went through your whole 2 page thread, and read all your replies, and that was the best one. So I haven't hidden anything, it's you who has failed epically.

Assuming we cant change people, what can we change, I know provide an alternative environment to live in...

hmmmmmmmm I wonder what TVP is.... ???

As I've written all around, lead by showing there can be a better way than it is. If people could actually observe sovereignty they would actually seek it. ZP doesnt support odeas of sovereignty in any capacity whatsoever, therefore it will fail for that reason alone.

Just because resources would be internationalised, there would be no sovereignty - is that what you're saying?

I think you are alone and failing through your reasoning.

Lead by showing there can be a better way than it is - you say....

hmmmmmm I wonder what TVP is trying to do with its plan for a theme-park?

Nope! No solutions to any of our problems are to be found anywhere inside of these three threads. If you're just now seeing in, nothing to be seen in any of these threads worth noting. There is NO solution to ANY of our problems other than ZP!

Fission Mailed if that was an attempt at sarcasm - because you still haven't written an alternative.

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
Domestication is a by product of the consumer-culture that Capitalism produces.

Oh? Do YOU own any pets? Or are pets not going to be allowed in your utopia?

Don't disconnect my response from yours, you said all the worlds problems come from greed and domestication of the masses.

I've presented many alternatives, as have others. Just realizing the problems of the system tells us where to attack. How hard is this? PJ shows the systems faults, but then instead of fixing those faults the ONLY way is to go into *Pure Communism*

Write these alternatives out, in this thread. Or link to your posts where you show some actual alternative, not some half-baked BS.

Fixing faults in a system that is by design faulty seems self-defeating.

PJ may have went to the empth degree (ie 100 years into a possible future) - but really it is the only solution to the problem (communistic tendancies that is), not just a bandaid, that you want to apply.

Again,

YOU PROVIDE ME WITH AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE WORLDS ILLS - THAT DOESN'T HAVE A COMMUNIST UNDERTONE - AND I'LL TIP MY HAT TO YOU

IF NOT.








[edit on 15/4/10 by ghostsoldier]

Very good debate here. Im gonna have to side with ghostsoldier on this though. I believe he has a better argument, but maybe im just a communist.. Liek he said, people aren't going to build technology to kill us. It's not like terminator or anything. I think your imagination is going a little too wild there.
Someone said earlier that capitalism isnt bad in itself but i have to disagree with you there. Capitalism encourages competition, which isn't a bad thing, though it means that people will only think of themselves and not help or share with others. It makes people greedy. also capitalism promotes inefficiency because if companies made their products efficient and last as long as possible, people would not keep buying those products. They purposely make their products break down after a while so they can make more profit and sell more goods. Because of this, Companies use more resources and the old products create more waste, so i believe capitalism is a bad system

"Greed" is a human trait

I'd have to say... tell that to the monks in tibet, or amazonian natives, australian bushmen... do you think they are greedy? They are human right?

ok yes, sorry i misunderstood you. And i agree, there will always be greedy people, but i think capitalism makes more people greedy because in capitalism it is survival of the fittest, and people are made to not care about each other. That is why we need to change the system to promote sharing and love for each other. The way capitalism is, it makes people not able to trust each other because they are afraid people around them will take advantage of them for their own personal gains. Capitalism makes people love money more than their neighbors, and that just creates conflicts

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
Outcry for ideas, not a blueprint for telling people what to do you say, hmmmmm I wonder what TVP is..... ???

ZP is a blueprint for a globally dictatorial system. ...A system that will have to micromanage every single thing we do and use in order to be able to make futile projections to attempt to ensure abundance. ...A system where we will be monitored every second of our existence to be able to fulfill this utopia, same as the NWO is building now. ...A roadmap to scientific domination where humans arent smart enough to actually manage the worlds resources as described, therefore machines smarter than humans will be needed which inherently means we will be obsolete. ...Where this scientific dictation has us all as numbers, cogs in the machine you are just a statistic whom doesnt own your own property, meaning you can be forced relocated as decided best fit for ensuring abundance. ...A system where unless everyone agrees, tyranny and oppression will be needed to force this system down their throats for there to be any hope of it being able to work. ...A system that promises abundance, and may have to exterminate scores of humans in order to provide it. ...A system that has been tried before over and over and has failed every single time, and the larger the system the more millions have been murdered by the government trying to enforce it. ...A dystopia.

Assuming we cant change people, what can we change, I know provide an alternative environment to live in...

But what you people mean by that is force a global system down everyones throats. 'Agree, because you have no other choice'. FACT: It cant work unless EVERYONE agrees. As has already been beaten to death, libertarianism provides a world of choices, communism / fascism (not much different when in pure form) enforces a world of conformity. Which would you prefer based on said criteria? Do you prefer a monolithic system that weilds ALL power, our power spread out across the society?

I think you are alone and failing through your reasoning.

Lead by showing there can be a better way than it is - you say....

hmmmmmm I wonder what TVP is trying to do with its plan for a theme-park?

No I'm not, nice try. I say demonstrate sovereignty, you say RE-EDUCATE everyone into being pure communists. Communism is the inverse of sovereignty.

Like I said, go ahead and build your theme park (make some $$$ for ZP), or just save all those resources by sending everyone to Epcot.

Fission Mailed if that was an attempt at sarcasm - because you still haven't written an alternative.

I've written many solutions all about, as have others. The burden of proof isnt on me (to derail my own thread) to show a better way in the first place, instead its on you to explain how to do your pure communism without it turning into tyranny as it always does. Your attempts to make me outline every possible solution that has or could be discussed is a desperate attempt to derail the discussion away from the pitfalls of your idealistic pure communism pipe dream. You say 'lets do pure communism', and over and over I've described how bad it is, and instead of trying to hammer out and correct the various pitfalls you declare I alone have to solve all of the worlds problems since you're incapable of coming up with solutions in regards to attempting your pure communism without it becoming Stalinism as I've described.

Oh? Do YOU own any pets? Or are pets not going to be allowed in your utopia?

Don't disconnect my response from yours, you said all the worlds problems come from greed and domestication of the masses.

I didn't say ALL! But I did say 'domestication'. And my point was people who engage in the domestication of others cannot be totally exempt in the mentality I was aiming at. Interesting how you didn't actually answer either question. It seems you arent answer hardly any of my questions directly, yet demand I answer yours when you're the one who seeks to force this system upon the globe.

Fixing faults in a system that is by design faulty seems self-defeating.

Wow!

Self-defeating to fix faults... again you have us returning to the idea that the Federal Reserve system is the ONLY possible way to have a 'monetary system'. It's also like say that since pure communism is faulty (which it IS) once its running and becomes corrupted it would be (following your logic) self-defeating to fix it where its obviously broken. But I see your point, if there's a profit motive then its faulty, fine, but the difference is to do your pure communism we have to go ALL IN. To do it any other way doesnt mean it has to be all in in regards such as international central bankers, fractional reserve banking, multinational corporatism where corporations have the same rights as human beings, and everything else related to crony capitalism. The system is currently designed to screw everyone the less you have, but it doesnt have to be. And just like thats the difference between libertarianism and fascism, thats also the difference between libertarianism and communism, except the sad thing is even fascism can provide aspects that are flexible. It's actually possible to mix various aspects fascism and socialism, but pure communism is all in or nothing. That all being said, please fidn the part earlier where I was talking about The Iron Law of Oligarchy.

Heres another case where: The Burden of Proof is on you to lay out in concrete how its possible to have a global-scale 'scientific' system that doesnt use units of measure of worth (currency).

"I've written many solutions all about, as have others. The burden of proof isnt on me (to derail my own thread) to show a better way in the first place, instead its on you to explain how to do your pure communism without it turning into tyranny as it always does."



I definitely agree with the above. And I'd also say that it's impossible given the results of the "experiments" in Russia, China and Cuba. If a signifigant amount of the populace must be shot or imprisoned for your theory to work (as occurred in Russia, China and Cuba) then I think you might have the wrong theory.

Just to recap some of the oppression which went along with communism which you'd need to somehow explain/debunk:

1. Russia: Soviet Gulags, the works of Alexander Solzenitzen himself a prisoner in the gulags, the mass murders committed by Joseph Stalin and the social policies he instituted resulting in many more deaths, denial of freedom of speech and freedom of religion and freedom of assembly, "disappearances" of political undesirables, etc.

2. China: Mass murder of ALL opium addicts, Deaths resulting from Mao's Cultural Revolution, Tiananmen Square crackdown/government firing on its own citizens, "Disappearances" of Tiananmen square dissidents, Mass torture of citizens, Denial of due process and habeas corpus for political dissidents, etc.

3. Cuba. I don't know too much about Cuba, but I do know that Fidel's "right hand man" Che was quite probably a psychopath and that he was directly responsible for murdering many people. Also Fidel solved his criminal problem by shipping all of them to south florida in the 1980s.

These examples don't strike me as anything approaching something any sane human being would want. I know I wouldn't want anyone around me to have to go through this type of hell.

Is this your idea of utopia? Is this your cure?

Let's look at the experiments which did survive for a short time. Black Bear Ranch, one of the few communes that lasted more than a few years in this country in the 1960s and 1970s, disregarded all those who insisted on perpetuating the "class struggle". They put aside the enemy which Marx insists on creating and simply lived according to the dictates of their hearts. THAT turned out well. Why? Not because of communistic ideas (in fact I would posit their living situation more resembled Locke's state of nature then anything imagined by Marx) but because of the power of the human heart, something which Marx/Stalin/Mao did not understand in the least.

Your thoughts?

[edit on 15-4-2010 by Cincinnatus]

Originally posted by bulletproof_monk
ok yes, sorry i misunderstood you. And i agree, there will always be greedy people, but i think capitalism makes more people greedy because in capitalism it is survival of the fittest, and people are made to not care about each other. That is why we need to change the system to promote sharing and love for each other. The way capitalism is, it makes people not able to trust each other because they are afraid people around them will take advantage of them for their own personal gains. Capitalism makes people love money more than their neighbors, and that just creates conflicts

I think somewhere along the line you've been brainwashed. I would hate to be in your shoes if you truly feel the way it sounds. You can't trust people because they might take advantage of you? So,do you advocate taking away all personal responsibility ?

By the way,for years the Bible has been the #1 selling book,and nowhere will you find the promotion of love and sharing more pronounced. God gave us the command to love one another,even our enemies. Do you think if more people cared about what God said that the world would be a better place?
(Communism is nearly synonymous with Atheism,by the way.)
God tells us we are all equal in His eyes,and we will all be judged as individuals for the choices we make.

I don't see how you can rationalize that "people are MADE not to care about each other". As long as we have freedom,people will be people,with all their good and bad traits. We also have the freedom to go on and do great things. Not all Capitalists are evil people! Have you ever had a decent job? Thank a Capitalist!

And please,learn some History!